ALPA's Next President

[BluDevAv8r]

So why can't ALPA have a membership vote for president? Do they think the "Average Line Pilot" is too stupid?


No, because it is easier to manipulate the few than the masses. This is why you never see anyone other than someone from the big 5 become president. ALPA can guide its MEC's in any direction it wants them to go. Bringup is absolutely correct in his statements.

Ah yes...the "Wizard of Oz" theory. Sorry Tim, don't buy it.

-Neal

 

[Lolikoka]

The Rules Will Change

So, in order for the small airlines to get control, there has to be more total pilots at the smaller airlines. We are approaching that point already.

The problem is that all of the reps from the smaller airlines would have to coordinate with each other in order to have any real power. The sheer numbers of regional/cargo/LCC pilots may be almost as big as the legacy pilot groups, but they are spread out among dozens of airlines rather than grouped together in a handful of legacy carriers. It's much easier to coordinate the reps from four airlines than it is to coordinate the reps from forty airlines.[/quote]

When a takeover of the union by regional pilots and/or pilots from the less-favored cargo carriers appears imminent, the rules will change to preserve power for the fortunate ones. That is reality - for now anyway.

I will continue to support ALPA, however, because of the enforcement mechanisms in place to make the company comply with the collective bargaining agreement, the aeromedical department (in case I ever need it), legal representation (in case I ever need it), and so we can access a portion of the war-chest to get a better contract (we're probably going to need it).

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Why don't you tell me what is so great about Duane Woerth? Educate me. ."

I think DW spends too much time in the office. He should get out to the domiciles more and press the flesh....

I also think ALPA national should develop an education campaign. With education and unification comes effectiveness.

What do you think are DW faults? Yes I am asking what you think and not regurtitated FI and crewroom mindless blah blah....

 

[~~~^~~~]

Duane Woerth's faults:
(1) Lack of Integrity. I've heard him profess to support union members, while quietly signing contracts behind their backs that award their flying to "preferred" pilots at other airlines. I've seen photos of him eating cake with Continental scabs. Duane Woerth does not understand that the purpose of a union is to bring employees together to bargain collectively. Duane Woerth's view is that all MEC's are independent and that ALPA is simply a toolbox.
(2) Duane Woerth has allowed the union to become fragmented. He allows MEC's to bid on each other's flying and signs concessionary contracts designed to undermine pilots at other air carriers. And remember, Woerth's signature has to be at the bottom of any contract.
(3) DHL, TWA, CC Air, if you aint big, you aint.....
(4) Duane Woerth has forgot the evils of Alter Ego and has actually encouraged the formation of alter ego air carriers that compete within the brand, driving down wages and working conditions
(5) Duane Woerth has talked about brand scope and other good ideas to correct the union's slide, but his actions have taken the union in exactly the other direction.
(6) In Duane Woerth's effort to "preserve" the mainline standards, he has allowed the profession to fall to the point where the jobs at his airline, Northwest, will not again in his lifetime reach the level of compensation or working conditions that existed when he took the job as President.

Duane blames it on airline management and September 11th. In all fairness some blame belongs there. But if you look at the trends, ALPA's position on alter ego replacements (being allowed) had the profession trending that direction anyway. All 9/11 and oil did is speed up the process. The whipsaw we thought would take ten years to be fully realized only too four or five years because desperate airlines took advantage of the holes in ALPA's scope blockade sooner rather than later.

 

[JoeMerchant]

If you want change, then you have to get involved, become more informed, and let your reps know how you feel. Don't be that typical line pilot that is completely clueless on how his own union operates. Remember, ALPA is a democracy.

1. If ALPA was a democracy, then the majority would rule. That isn't the case in this situation. The membership doesn't get to vote on most issues, including the ALPA President.

2. Even if ALPA was a democracy, which it really isn't, would that make it right? Is majority rule a good thing? What if the majority wants to harm the minority?

3. I agree with you that the typical line pilot is completely clueless on how ALPA works. The typical American is completely clueless on how the government works. The typical American is clueless on how business works.

 

[JoeMerchant]

So why don't we as American citizens vote for the President of the US? Am I too stupid? Or is it because we live in a representational form of democracy?

-Neal

Neal,

Actually the Electoral College system is the opposite of the system we have for electing an ALPA President. The Electoral College system is designed to give the less populated states more of a say in the Presidential election. Most of the country are "red states", however most of the people live in "blue states". In ALPA, the "blue states", or majority, elect the President. In the Electoral College system, there is more protection from the majority. ALPA could learn a little from the way we elect a President of the US.

If you really wanted to compare the two systems Neal, then those of us in the "small states" would get more of a say in who the next ALPA President is - however we both know that that isn't the way this works.

 

[BoilerUP]

Folks, the United States is a republic, not a true democracy. We elect representatives to vote FOR US, just the same as ALPA. If our country (or ALPA) was a true democracy the procedurial process would be so bloated that nothing would ever be accomplished. It has NOTHING to do with relative intelligence...and if anything, the Electorial College example is the red herring of this discussion...

 

[BluDevAv8r]

Neal,

Actually the Electoral College system is the opposite of the system we have for electing an ALPA President. The Electoral College system is designed to give the less populated states more of a say in the Presidential election. Most of the country are "red states", however most of the people live in "blue states". In ALPA, the "blue states", or majority, elect the President. In the Electoral College system, there is more protection from the majority. ALPA could learn a little from the way we elect a President of the US.

If you really wanted to compare the two systems Neal, then those of us in the "small states" would get more of a say in who the next ALPA President is - however we both know that that isn't the way this works.

I don't exactly agree with this statement but I don't want to turn this into a Political Science 101 discussion. The bottomline is that the US citizen doesn't vote for the POTUS and the ALPA line pilot doesn't vote for the President of ALPA either. Both are representational forms of democracy. Both involve voting on a local level to ensure solid representation. If the small jet pilots want to organize at the next BOD and change things, trust me, it could be done...the question is, will the small jet carriers organize and coordinate?

-Neal

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Duane Woerth's faults:
(1) Lack of Integrity. I've heard him profess to support union members, while quietly signing contracts behind their backs that award their flying to "preferred" pilots at other airlines. I've seen photos of him eating cake with Continental scabs. Duane Woerth does not understand that the purpose of a union is to bring employees together to bargain collectively. Duane Woerth's view is that all MEC's are independent and that ALPA is simply a toolbox.
(2) Duane Woerth has allowed the union to become fragmented. He allows MEC's to bid on each other's flying and signs concessionary contracts designed to undermine pilots at other air carriers. And remember, Woerth's signature has to be at the bottom of any contract.
(3) DHL, TWA, CC Air, if you aint big, you aint.....
(4) Duane Woerth has forgot the evils of Alter Ego and has actually encouraged the formation of alter ego air carriers that compete within the brand, driving down wages and working conditions
(5) Duane Woerth has talked about brand scope and other good ideas to correct the union's slide, but his actions have taken the union in exactly the other direction.
(6) In Duane Woerth's effort to "preserve" the mainline standards, he has allowed the profession to fall to the point where the jobs at his airline, Northwest, will not again in his lifetime reach the level of compensation or working conditions that existed when he took the job as President.

Duane blames it on airline management and September 11th. In all fairness some blame belongs there. But if you look at the trends, ALPA's position on alter ego replacements (being allowed) had the profession trending that direction anyway. All 9/11 and oil did is speed up the process. The whipsaw we thought would take ten years to be fully realized only too four or five years because desperate airlines took advantage of the holes in ALPA's scope blockade sooner rather than later.

FINS,

Remember the ALPA President is a politician.

For example in your repsonse #1 you contridict yourself. By eating cake with scabs he did bring more employees together. He may not have liked it, (I don't and you don't ) but as the Point Man politician, he may have done what he believes to be best... I don't know... I'm just glad I don't have to eat cake with scabs... They certianly don't ride on my jumpseat...

Objectively review your post and repsond with what are troubles and difficulties for any pilot who happened to be President during these times or are they DW specific. I am not countering your post...just invoking discussion...

All,

If you don't want DW as President..time to get involved. It starts at the LEC level...

 

[PCL_128]

1. If ALPA was a democracy, then the majority would rule. That isn't the case in this situation. The membership doesn't get to vote on most issues, including the ALPA President.

No, ALPA isn't a pure democracy, but pure democracies are extremely rare because they just don't work. The average line pilot doesn't have the time or desire to research every issue in-depth. That's why we have elected reps that are willing to devote their spare time to researching and debating these issues. Perhaps if you would actually attend the meetings that you're supposed to be at then you would understand how and why the process works.

2. Even if ALPA was a democracy, which it really isn't, would that make it right? Is majority rule a good thing? What if the majority wants to harm the minority?

What would you suggest as an alternative? Minority rule? Do you have any alternative ideas, or do you just choose to complain for the sake of complaining? Offer some alternative if you think the democratic process is faulty.

3. I agree with you that the typical line pilot is completely clueless on how ALPA works.

And yet you believe that these are the people that should be electing the President of the Association that represents our interests on Capital Hill? Seems a little absurd to me. But then again, so does your silly little lawsuit.

 

[81Horse]

... The average line pilot doesn't have the time or desire to research every issue in-depth.

The average line pilot doesn't even know his/her own contract.

 

[BoilerUP]

The average line pilot doesn't even know his/her own contract.

Quoted for truth.
.
.
.
and before I get flamed, I'm still learning mine...

 

[jetfo]

OK so nobody has any ideas that would benefit all of us so....No wholly owned subsidiaries or if they do one list . Use ALPA merger policy.No fee for departure, code share only so both company's take a risk on a route.And finally a nation wide contract amendable on the same date for all and hopefully negotiated with one entity like the Air Transport Association.

I'll vote for that!

 

[PCL_128]

I'll vote for that!

That's all well and good, but it's basically tantamount to Miss America contestants saying that they wish for "world peace." It's a nice thought, but how do you make it happen? Everyone has these grand schemes that they think ALPA should bring about, but no one ever has any details about how to make it happen. Despite that, they still attack the leadership for not getting it done. Instead of just listing off the whats, how about someone comes up with the hows?

 

[jetfo]

Duane Woerth's faults:
(1) Lack of Integrity. I've heard him profess to support union members, while quietly signing contracts behind their backs that award their flying to "preferred" pilots at other airlines. I've seen photos of him eating cake with Continental scabs. Duane Woerth does not understand that the purpose of a union is to bring employees together to bargain collectively. Duane Woerth's view is that all MEC's are independent and that ALPA is simply a toolbox.
(2) Duane Woerth has allowed the union to become fragmented. He allows MEC's to bid on each other's flying and signs concessionary contracts designed to undermine pilots at other air carriers. And remember, Woerth's signature has to be at the bottom of any contract.
(3) DHL, TWA, CC Air, if you aint big, you aint.....
(4) Duane Woerth has forgot the evils of Alter Ego and has actually encouraged the formation of alter ego air carriers that compete within the brand, driving down wages and working conditions
(5) Duane Woerth has talked about brand scope and other good ideas to correct the union's slide, but his actions have taken the union in exactly the other direction.
(6) In Duane Woerth's effort to "preserve" the mainline standards, he has allowed the profession to fall to the point where the jobs at his airline, Northwest, will not again in his lifetime reach the level of compensation or working conditions that existed when he took the job as President.

Duane blames it on airline management and September 11th. In all fairness some blame belongs there. But if you look at the trends, ALPA's position on alter ego replacements (being allowed) had the profession trending that direction anyway. All 9/11 and oil did is speed up the process. The whipsaw we thought would take ten years to be fully realized only too four or five years because desperate airlines took advantage of the holes in ALPA's scope blockade sooner rather than later.

Thank You! I would only add that being at a legacy is almost not worth it anymore.

 

[surplus1]

Offer some alternative if you think the democratic process is faulty.

The democratic process isn't fault. ALPA however, is not a democracy (pure or otherwise). It also is not a Republic.

ALPA is an oligarchy with a unicameral legislature and no system of checks and balances.

Brannan is a good man but he will not defeat DW or any other member of the oligarchy that might be nominated should DW chose not to run again. The chiefs of the oligarchy will never permit an "outsider" to gain the presidency of "their" association.

Brannan may carry his own state as a favored son on the first ballot, possibly with support from one or two of the mini states. Should there be more than one ballot, all the mini-states will desert to curry favor with the chieftans. The wagons will be circled and DW will again be elected by "acclamation".

The presidency of the ALPA cannot be won on a platform of equity for all. Such a concept deprives the the few of absolute power. They won't let that happen.

 

[PCL_128]

The democratic process isn't fault. ALPA however, is not a democracy (pure or otherwise). It also is not a Republic.

ALPA is an oligarchy with a unicameral legislature and no system of checks and balances.

Brannan is a good man but he will not defeat DW or any other member of the oligarchy that might be nominated should DW chose not to run again. The chiefs of the oligarchy will never permit an "outsider" to gain the presidency of "their" association.

Brannan may carry his own state as a favored son on the first ballot, possibly with support from one or two of the mini states. Should there be more than one ballot, all the mini-states will desert to curry favor with the chieftans. The wagons will be circled and DW will again be elected by "acclamation".

The presidency of the ALPA cannot be won on a platform of equity for all. Such a concept deprives the the few of absolute power. They won't let that happen.

You quoted me, but still failed to offer the alternative I was seeking. Democracy, oligarchy, dictatorship, or republic, no matter what you think ALPA is, you still aren't offering any solution or better system even though you constantly complain about our current system. What is your solution? What system do you think should be implemented in place of the current BOD/Exec Board/Exec Council/MEC/LEC system? Do you support a pure democratic process? I'm curious if you have any actual solutions, or if you can only complain and file lawsuits.

 

[~~~^~~~]

PCL:

ALPA's failure is a direct result of its failure to properly represent minority members. A union must bring employees together, not divide them into the haves and have nots. It is apparent that ALPA would benefit from the following reforms:

• ALPA needs to restore governance in accordance with its own rules - this means restoring the Constitution and Bylaws. The Constitution needs to reflect the objective goals of the union and the methods to achieve those goals.
• ALPA needs an independent judiciary that can hear grievances members have with the association and hear grievances between MEC's. Members currently have no redress against the union's own acts of malfeasance.
• ALPA needs to reform the Executive Board and get rid of definitions which give some pilots representation all out of proporation to their membership. Whether a pilot flies a MD11 for Fed Ex, or a Dash 8 for Mesa, a vote should be a vote. Representation on the Executive Board should not hinge on whether your airline has a certain type of aircraft in the fleet.
• There should be less reliance on contingency funds to perform the normal operations of the MEC. Some MEC's are under constant threat from National.
• ALPA should promote scope which includes and protects all members. Alter Ego replacement workers / airlines / certificates are the enemy of all pilots who want to restore our profession to the standard where a first officer can support a family.
• ALPA Leadership Pay structures should better reflect the pay of the members, not an average of the top ten, or three, airlines. How about twice, or three times, the average of the median compensation at all represented carriers?
• ALPA should strive to return to the moral high ground. If ALPA threatens a strike, they should mean it. No more of this picketing, press release, and slander tactics while negotiating committees and MEC's are reaching T.A.'s on the Company's terms.
• ALPA should focus on raising the image of our profession by pushing safety and operational improvements. ALPA's credibility with the American People and the politicians that represent them is less than zero. If we want to end Alter Ego replacement (apparently now also coming from overseas thanks to the DOT) we must get the people on the side of professional pilots. That is an excellent goal for a professional union.

ALPA is getting close to seeing decertification efforts pop up at Regional carriers. ALPA can either find its way back to the policies and governance that made it a great union, or I think we will see a trend in the future where fewer and fewer pilots will chose to be ALPA members.

~~~^~~~

 

[PCL_128]

Fins, believe it or not, I actually agree with most of what you posted. However, the question isn't what needs to be done, it's how you go about doing it. How do you suggest that we accomplish these goals if not through the democratic process? All of the changes you bring up can be initiated through a resolution at a Local Council meeting. Have you submitted any resolutions at your Local Council meetings in relation to these issues? If not, then why not? Listing grievances against the Association on a website does not accomplish anything. Rather than sending checks to the RJDC and attacking ALPA on this website, why not get involved in the process and try to change things?

 

[~~~^~~~]

PCL - Yes, myself and others wrote resolutions brought these up at Local Counsel meetings and were given support. Some of these are archived and available online at the RJDC's web site. Initially we were given a good deal of local support, then National made a few phone calls and MEC Chairmen began telling folks that if they did not get the situation under control that "there would not be money to put paper in the photocopiers." Threats were also made that ALPA could throw the MEC into recievership. Realizing that they were not asked their opinion, but rather given a command, local representatives fell in line with National (the Delta MEC's) orders. Here is a brief overview of some of those efforts, once the Comair and ASA interests got aligned.

http://www.rjdefense.com/document_library.htm

Settlement Proposal
December 19, 2001
This is the entire, unedited version of the November 15th settlement proposal to ALPA. The proposal advances ways to resolve the core issues and provide for an equitable system of governance to prevent similar problems in the future. For a summary, see the "Summary of Settlement Proposal" listed below.


ALPA Grievances
alpagrvs.pdf (Adobe Acrobat)
Here are grievances filed by Comair pilots against ALPA under its Constitution and By-laws, and ALPA's response. Grievances address predatory bargaining, unfair merger hearing, inappropriate letters of agreement, inappropriate bargaining. Note: This is in our Pilot Pak. (35k PDF)

ALPA Letters
alpaletters.pdf (Adobe Acrobat)
Letters from the ASA and Comair MECs to ALPA President and Delta CEO requesting to be included in scope negotiations and their respective response. Note: Included in Pilot Pak. (142k PDF)

Documents of Interest
ASA-Comair Joint Merger Petition
petition.pdf (Adobe Acrobat)
The petition said "Here are the problems, this is our proposed solution." ALPA rejected the solution, but the problems remain. Download and decide for yourself. (55k PDF)

ASA-Comair Written Arguments
ecpresin.pdf (Adobe Acrobat)
Written arguments made to ALPA's Executive Council is support of the merger petition. (31k PDF)

ALPA has made its' position absolutely clear, that it will not allow "Express/Small/Regional/National Pilots" representation in the union short of a Court Order.

I am forever hopeful that ALPA can reform itself, but there is no leadership at the National level. The leadership of our entire union is centered in a couple of MEC offices. National claims it is nothing but a toolbox to help MEC's but in reality, the national union is a couple of MECs and the rest of us are given the representation that pilots at other airlines arbitrarily decide to allow us to have. I do not expect the Delta MEC, or the Northwest MEC, to ask ALPA National to reform so that their power is reduced. The Delta MEC represents the Delta pilots - they have no duty to ASA pilots. ALPA has the duty of representation, but ALPA is not run by its members, in effect the union has ben hijacked.

The only tools in the box are us volunteers and faithful

~~~^~~~

 

[Cookie Monster]

Aside from all the explanations about the problems with ALPA, I believe that the number one problem currently is the level of power and control that the ALPA lawyers have. Get some lawyers in there who are not afraid to fight and you might have a chance.

 

[~~~^~~~]

ALPA is a great client, they have money and they are always in trouble....

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Fins,

Thanks for the pragmatic repsonse. You've many valid points.

However, I don't see any of your ideas becomming real with the current state of the memebership.....

I fully support reform at ALPA with a membership consisting of pragmatic, educated and highly skilled professional Air Line Pilots.

I do not support reform from a membership that consists of mindless masses of sheeple that function via mob frenzy.

At times there seems to be no difference between South Central LA thugs burning down thier own neighborhood after the R. King verdict and the ALPA memebership. Those in power look down thier noses and the hills at us in our valley and we riot each other.....

Surplus1- always enjoy your posts. It seems that every form of society is a oligarchy... thru time and history.. 10% of the people have 90% of the cash and power.....

 

[BluDevAv8r]

Aside from all the explanations about the problems with ALPA, I believe that the number one problem currently is the level of power and control that the ALPA lawyers have. Get some lawyers in there who are not afraid to fight and you might have a chance.

Huh? What and who are you talking about?

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Aside from all the explanations about the problems with ALPA, I believe that the number one problem currently is the level of power and control that the ALPA lawyers have. Get some lawyers in there who are not afraid to fight and you might have a chance.

The number one problem is membership particaption at LEC meetings is 5%.

The number one problem is voter particaption in LEC elections at 33%.

The number one problem is pilots do not educate.

You can blame ALPA National, the lawyers, the staffer on stike, whatever...

However until you look in the mirror and change what you can directly control you will be as effective as the state sanitarium boob who moves his lips up and down with his index finger making pitch change noises.....

 

[Bringupthebird]

The number one problem is membership particaption at LEC meetings is 5%.

The number one problem is voter particaption in LEC elections at 33%.

The number one problem is pilots do not educate.

You can blame ALPA National, the lawyers, the staffer on stike, whatever...

However until you look in the mirror and change what you can directly control you will be as effective as the state sanitarium boob who moves his lips up and down with his index finger making pitch change noises.....

So it's all the stupid line pilot's fault, eh? They are "smart" enough to get the cards needed to bring ALPA in, but they're too dumb to know what to do with them once they're there? C'mon!

ALPA's structure disenfranchises 70% of the membership because it segregates pilots into the "haves" (or used-to have) and the "have-nots" (and never will).

Eliminate the Group EVP system and allow each airline a roll-call vote. Therefore, airlines can build coalitions among themselves and effect real change.

Allow membership vote for the BOD and ALPA president. What's good on the local level should work equally well at the National level, especially in the computer age.

That would be a good start.

 

[Dumb Pilot]

So it's all the stupid line pilot's fault, eh? They are "smart" enough to get the cards needed to bring ALPA in, but they're too dumb to know what to do with them once they're there? C'mon!

ALPA's structure disenfranchises 70% of the membership because it segregates pilots into the "haves" (or used-to have) and the "have-nots" (and never will).

AMEN!

The reason why pilot participation is that low, is because WE JUST DON'T BELIEVE IN ALPA ANYMORE. You can safe your ALPA rhetoric because while they continue to erode mainline flying and outsourcing bigger A/C's all the time you will continue to lose more and more rank and file

MY MEC SPEAKS FOR ME

I just have no idea what the F%ck they are saying

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

So it's all the stupid line pilot's fault, eh? They are "smart" enough to get the cards needed to bring ALPA in, but they're too dumb to know what to do with them once they're there? C'mon!

ALPA's structure disenfranchises 70% of the membership because it segregates pilots into the "haves" (or used-to have) and the "have-nots" (and never will).

Eliminate the Group EVP system and allow each airline a roll-call vote. Therefore, airlines can build coalitions among themselves and effect real change.

Allow membership vote for the BOD and ALPA president. What's good on the local level should work equally well at the National level, especially in the computer age.

That would be a good start.

Unless you were an Air Line pilot in the 1930's.. no one today "got the cards"

No, they aren't too dumb...just too lazy to read and participate...

OK... so don't attend meetings and don't vote.... at least you chose not to choose!

Are you advocating that pilots shouldn't particpate, they should just verbally express change (on a message board.... ) and it shall be done?

 

[PCL_128]

MY MEC SPEAKS FOR ME

I just have no idea what the F%ck they are saying

Just what exactly is it that you feel you don't know? I believe you were at our last Local Council meeting in DTW last month, so why didn't you ask us some questions during the meeting if you are so confused about what your MEC is saying? Do you call your Council 129 reps and ask them? Many pilots complain that they don't know what's going on, but most of them don't take the effort to call or email their reps to find out. Are you one of those pilots? Remember, communication is a two-way street. We can't answer your questions if you don't call and ask us.

 

[minnereg]

I figured since everyone enjoys grammatical/spelling errors I would post this:

"...were to ignorant or to far removed or to uniformed to make intelligent decisions..."

This is from Dan's website concerning why our vote should go to him. I guess he forgot a few "o's"