Alpa & Usapa!

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Why doesn't Parker just shut down the company ? It's gonna happen...eventually

Because if he can get credit for union busting it will add to his resume and marketability. Of course USAPA is making that happen for him....

 

[FR8mastr]

C41 is the least of your worries.

If I were a USAPA officer the liability via personal litagation would scare the hel! out of me....

That is the same crap P.R. told me when he was threatening me, back in my officer days. For the record, I told him to bring it on, along with his article 8 charges.
He didn't.

 

[JoeMerchant]

That is the same crap P.R. told me when he was threatening me, back in my officer days. For the record, I told him to bring it on, along with his article 8 charges.
He didn't.

....many DAL pilots threatened article 8 charges with those of us who supported RJDC....I actually encouraged them to go through with it....None of them ever did....More chest thumping.....All bark and no bite......

 

[MCDU]

Vote USAPA - The Truth about ALPA at Continental.

Dear US Airways Pilots,

My name is Roger Hall. I have been with Continental Airlines for 18 years. I am writing this to shed some truth about the recent letter you received from Jay Peirce, the MEC Chairman at Continental Airlines. I am also writing this to urge to vote for USAPA.

Let me start by saying that in 2001, I wanted nothing more than to have ALPA on the property here at Continental. Growing up and watching my father serve as an ALPA LEC Rep and Council Chairman had made me believe that ALPA was the way to go. I always knew that my father was fighting for either the career preservation or improvement of his fellow pilots. When we here at CAL were faced with the vote I thought it was a simple choice. I talked my father and was shocked when he told me it was best to stay Independent and that it will be the better choice for the long haul. He told me of the pitfalls and of how little power the pilots really have under ALPA. He warned that once some of the so called volunteers were in, they became lifers motivated by self interest and said I need look no farther than the one MEC vice-chairmen of the eighties, he is still wearing a suit and tie and he is the VP of Finance today. You will pay for the all the trapping, pomp and circumstance of a national union with no sense of the profession and receive less efficient bargaining and be tied to policies that try to serve to many masters and likely not serve your own pilot group well. Well I didn’t listen I voted ALPA and regret it now more that ever.

It didn’t take long to realize that it was a mistake. Contract ’02 negotiations were delayed from the start following the 9/11 Attacks. Airline management used this against all Airlines. We saw A Plans go, some without union ratification, pay cuts, work rule changes, and the list goes on. Well instead of ALPA National standing up and rallying all the Airline pilots to fight the fight, ALPA sat back and watched each airline go their own way. Meanwhile APA, the union that represents American Pilots didn’t back down that easy. Despite the fact that they were near bankruptcy the fought back against Management theft and preserved their A Plan, maintained the best B Plan in the industry and had snap back provisions.

Here at CAL under the first and only ALPA contract I have experienced, things are not better, they are worse. Keep in mind that we were not threatened by Bankruptcy or in Bankruptcy like American or US Airways. We had a CEO that told us we are better than everyone else, our cost are lower, and that we are prepared to fly into the future with our young fleet. Yet the independent union at APA far out negotiated our ALPA contingent and the engineered the replacement of their CEO to boot.

Here are just a few things that were given up;

-Replacing line construction with a preferential bidding system that is a mess. PBS doesn’t fully honor seniority and if you are not a program specialist every month is a crap shoot. Pilots are putting off upgrade and transitions because the schedules are so bad. We have pilots in the 60% holding B757/B767 Captain and 2 year pilots as B737 Captains because no body wants them. Well more than a thousand pilots bypassed upgrade to Captain.

-The way our Vacations and training are credited make for an awful bid month. I hold a better schedule without vacation than I do with a vacation week.

-Our Frozen A plan is just that frozen not protected.

-We have no Snap Back. ALPA negotiations will start below where ALPA experts left us 6 years ago.

-There is no Schedule Improvement again because of PBS.

-As Part of Contract ’02, we had a side letter that protected us in case the other Union Groups didn’t ratify their contracts. We didn’t have to honor our contract until such a time that all employees took pay cuts. Well that side letter didn’t last ONE DAY. Our then MEC Chairman, Captain Jay Panarello, gave CAL Management the green light for the concessions, WITHOUT Membership Approval. Is this really what you want in a Union.

Ladies and Gentlemen we are not better off with ALPA. There is no National Unity, there is no National Expertise, there is No 61,000 Strong, there is No Merger Protection, No Seniority Protection, No Insurance or Medical protection. All of the above can be attained or protected just as easy with an Independent Union. I am working under the worse conditions of my career. Other than hourly rate I had a better Quality of life under the Old Frank Lorenzo Pilot Employment Policy when hired in 1990 than I do under an ALPA Contract.

Remember You are the Union, You are what makes it strong and you have the chance to Own your Union and not come second the interest of others or the Union itself. Just ask yourself, are the pilots at Southwest, UPS, American, AirTran worse off than us ALPA Carriers, or has their Independent Unions served them well?

In closing I am embarrassed of our Union President, in 15 moths at the helm he has signed a Comair concessionary contract, and done more to divide pilots than anyone before him. While we all continue to live in an uncertain environment with Losses in Pay and Quality of Life, our fearless leaders continue to live like fat cats. I ask, “John Prater, How is that taking it back?”

I fully support the USAPA efforts and will continue to see all pilots as my brothers and sisters no matter what the paint scheme on the airframe is. I urge each and everyone of you to vote for USAPA.

Fraternally,

Roger Hall II
EWR B737 Captain

 

[MCDU]

Posted on US Aviation board

 

[PlaneDrvr]

Vote USAPA - The Truth about ALPA at Continental.

Dear US Airways Pilots,

My name is Roger Hall. I have been with Continental Airlines for 18 years. I am writing this to shed some truth about the recent letter you received from Jay Peirce, the MEC Chairman at Continental Airlines. I am also writing this to urge to vote for USAPA.

Let me start by saying that in 2001, I wanted nothing more than to have ALPA on the property here at Continental. Growing up and watching my father serve as an ALPA LEC Rep and Council Chairman had made me believe that ALPA was the way to go. I always knew that my father was fighting for either the career preservation or improvement of his fellow pilots. When we here at CAL were faced with the vote I thought it was a simple choice. I talked my father and was shocked when he told me it was best to stay Independent and that it will be the better choice for the long haul. He told me of the pitfalls and of how little power the pilots really have under ALPA. He warned that once some of the so called volunteers were in, they became lifers motivated by self interest and said I need look no farther than the one MEC vice-chairmen of the eighties, he is still wearing a suit and tie and he is the VP of Finance today. You will pay for the all the trapping, pomp and circumstance of a national union with no sense of the profession and receive less efficient bargaining and be tied to policies that try to serve to many masters and likely not serve your own pilot group well. Well I didn’t listen I voted ALPA and regret it now more that ever.

It didn’t take long to realize that it was a mistake. Contract ’02 negotiations were delayed from the start following the 9/11 Attacks. Airline management used this against all Airlines. We saw A Plans go, some without union ratification, pay cuts, work rule changes, and the list goes on. Well instead of ALPA National standing up and rallying all the Airline pilots to fight the fight, ALPA sat back and watched each airline go their own way. Meanwhile APA, the union that represents American Pilots didn’t back down that easy. Despite the fact that they were near bankruptcy the fought back against Management theft and preserved their A Plan, maintained the best B Plan in the industry and had snap back provisions.

Here at CAL under the first and only ALPA contract I have experienced, things are not better, they are worse. Keep in mind that we were not threatened by Bankruptcy or in Bankruptcy like American or US Airways. We had a CEO that told us we are better than everyone else, our cost are lower, and that we are prepared to fly into the future with our young fleet. Yet the independent union at APA far out negotiated our ALPA contingent and the engineered the replacement of their CEO to boot.

Here are just a few things that were given up;

-Replacing line construction with a preferential bidding system that is a mess. PBS doesn’t fully honor seniority and if you are not a program specialist every month is a crap shoot. Pilots are putting off upgrade and transitions because the schedules are so bad. We have pilots in the 60% holding B757/B767 Captain and 2 year pilots as B737 Captains because no body wants them. Well more than a thousand pilots bypassed upgrade to Captain.

-The way our Vacations and training are credited make for an awful bid month. I hold a better schedule without vacation than I do with a vacation week.

-Our Frozen A plan is just that frozen not protected.

-We have no Snap Back. ALPA negotiations will start below where ALPA experts left us 6 years ago.

-There is no Schedule Improvement again because of PBS.

-As Part of Contract ’02, we had a side letter that protected us in case the other Union Groups didn’t ratify their contracts. We didn’t have to honor our contract until such a time that all employees took pay cuts. Well that side letter didn’t last ONE DAY. Our then MEC Chairman, Captain Jay Panarello, gave CAL Management the green light for the concessions, WITHOUT Membership Approval. Is this really what you want in a Union.

Ladies and Gentlemen we are not better off with ALPA. There is no National Unity, there is no National Expertise, there is No 61,000 Strong, there is No Merger Protection, No Seniority Protection, No Insurance or Medical protection. All of the above can be attained or protected just as easy with an Independent Union. I am working under the worse conditions of my career. Other than hourly rate I had a better Quality of life under the Old Frank Lorenzo Pilot Employment Policy when hired in 1990 than I do under an ALPA Contract.

Remember You are the Union, You are what makes it strong and you have the chance to Own your Union and not come second the interest of others or the Union itself. Just ask yourself, are the pilots at Southwest, UPS, American, AirTran worse off than us ALPA Carriers, or has their Independent Unions served them well?

In closing I am embarrassed of our Union President, in 15 moths at the helm he has signed a Comair concessionary contract, and done more to divide pilots than anyone before him. While we all continue to live in an uncertain environment with Losses in Pay and Quality of Life, our fearless leaders continue to live like fat cats. I ask, “John Prater, How is that taking it back?”

I fully support the USAPA efforts and will continue to see all pilots as my brothers and sisters no matter what the paint scheme on the airframe is. I urge each and everyone of you to vote for USAPA.

Fraternally,

Roger Hall II
EWR B737 Captain

I have heard it quoted several times on message boards that the top 'executive officers' of alpa get somewhere around $9,800.00/mth, in "living expenses" and just wonder if it is true??

Can someone tell me if this is really true??

Da

 

[thruthemurk]

Vote USAPA - The Truth about ALPA at Continental.

Dear US Airways Pilots,

My name is Roger Hall. I have been with Continental Airlines for 18 years. .......
Roger Hall II
EWR B737 Captain

Jeez,
I wonder if his dad (Roger Hall I) is the same roger hall who was MEC chair at United in the 80's and then later scabbed in the strike of 85. From this letter I would not be surprised.
Murk

 

[Soulfly]

Roger,

USAPA has already offered the idea of a cost neutral contract to Parker for a DOH seniority list.

They are willing to sell their seniority. PERIOD.

I am no ALPA cheerleader. USAPA's premise is flawed.

The first 18 months USAPA's MEC will be run by self appointed leaders. Not ONE WEST PILOT among them.

It does not pass the litmus test.

Now, if USAPA's premise was, ALPA sucks, we can do this better, come on AWA guys let's form a team and get this done. Different story.

Right from their Lawyers mouth, definition of democracy: "Tyranny by Majority".

There are independent unions. But not one of them were formed in this fashion. Name one.

And one of my best friends is at CAL. 98 hire. I know how crappy your contract is. Unfortunately, Mr. Panarello, if I remember correctly was a scab. No further questions.

 

[PHXFLYR]

You are absolutely right and I will be bailing out to to memorize a few more things. I'm on this board for the comic relief and to try and catch up on what is going on in our "lovely" industry.
Could a solution to this Alpa vs. Usapa thing be settled with going to a third already established union (I don't care who, but lets pick the TWU just for examples sake.) and start over from square one? Just a thought to try and settle all the bitch biting......

With your new found place on the bottom of the west senority list you had better pray that ALPA prevails in the upcoming election . Because if USAPA wins and they go to Parker and sell him on the idea of a cost neutral contract in exchange for a DOH seniority list, then I'll be sitting in your F/O seat and you'll be given directions to the PHX Unemployment Office. You seem to have some sort of axe to grind with ALPA from some past injustice perceived or.otherwise. Might want to sheath that axe for now and, to paraphase our old America West advertising slogan; "Get on Board", because we are in the fight of our professional lives.

PHXFLYR

 

[JoeMerchant]

Roger,

USAPA has already offered the idea of a cost neutral contract to Parker for a DOH seniority list.

They are willing to sell their seniority. PERIOD.

I am no ALPA cheerleader. USAPA's premise is flawed.

...of course they are.....in this business seniority trumps everything else......Either deal with the seniority conundrum or deal with consequences of not dealing with the conundrum.....

Seniority is the most valuable thing we have.....of course we will protect it at any cost.....If you don't like that....change the system....otherwise just accept it.....

 

[Soulfly]

Joe, for the record. The AWA MEC attempted to deal with the seniority issue.

I feel that a deal may have been worked out if the AAA MEC had been willing to work toward a middle ground. Something that would pass a vote of both pilot groups. The TA, requires it. So a deal that would only ratify on on side would be pointless.

We had meeting after meeting. The EAST negotiating position. DOH. No compromise. DOH. Well, that puts a guy with 2 years LOS senior to a guy with 8 service at AWA. Don't care. DOH. Why? Two words. Furlough protection. That is the heart of the matter.

And if you don't think whoring yourself out to screw another pilot group is not beneath contempt, well, let's just say I hope I never have to fly with you.

To me integrity is the backbone of a man. Period.

And in case you haven't been paying attention. There is a process that in place. And the AAA pilots were perfectly happy with that process during the Trump Shuttle ARBITRATION. So happy in fact they chose George Nicoloau for this arbitration.

Why change a process both sides have legally agreed to.

And honestly, if George had gone DOH, would USAPA exist. Well, we are both smart enough to answer that one.

What do you care anyhow? Are you an active UsAirways pilot?

 

[JoeMerchant]

Joe, for the record. The AWA MEC attempted to deal with the seniority issue.

I feel that a deal may have been worked out of the AAA MEC had been willing to work toward a middle ground. Something that would pass a vote of both pilot groups. The TA, requires it. So a deal that would only ratify on on side would be pointless.

We had meeting after meeting. The EAST negotiating position. DOH. No compromise. DOH. Well, that puts a guy with 2 years LOS senior to a guy with 8 service at AWA. Don't care. DOH. Why? Two words. Furlough protection. That is the heart of the matter.

And if you don't think whoring yourself out to screw another pilot group is not beneath contempt, well, let's just say I hope I never have to fly with you.

To me integrity is the backbone of a man. Period.

The AWA MEC "tried to deal with the seniority issue" just like the NWA and DAL MECs are trying to deal with the "seniority issue"......

We all saw this train wreck coming.....The senior most AWA pilot had about the same LOS as the junior most AAA pilot....This is the most lopsided seniority integration EVER....

Why we insist on there being such a divide between "senior and junior" in this business is beyond me....but it results in these p!$$ing contests......

A few years ago AWA 757 captains topped out at $124 per hour....senior USAir FOs were making about the same.....A junior post deregulation carrier merged with a senior pre-deregulation carrier is a recipe for no unity....no matter who the union is....

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

So every thing is ALPA fault.... then all of a sudden Roger says....

Remember You are the Union, You are what makes it strong and you have the chance to Own your Union and not come second the interest of others or the Union itself. Just ask yourself, are the pilots at Southwest, UPS, American, AirTran worse off than us ALPA Carriers, or has their Independent Unions served them well?

So.. what is it? Is it insider volunteers or are YOU the union?

The whole diatribe is just opinion and perspective...

I say they have not served them any better. UPS has a management contract. It passed with minimal majority. Whereas FedEx has a pilot contract.. it passed with a high majority.

Effectiveness at Airtran is low. They'll never strike so why should management be motivated.

APA is doing well, but they have zero representation at CapHill or ICAO. Age 60? All they did was bark. No bite.

SWAPA? They wanted age 60.. pushed hard and got it..


And if CAL indy ventruere was so good why did they come back to ALPA? Cause the majorirty was wrong and the minority was right...??

 

[Thebadcat1313]

Vote USAPA - The Truth about ALPA at Continental.

Dear US Airways Pilots,

My name is Roger Hall. I have been with Continental Airlines for 18 years. I am writing this to shed some truth about the recent letter you received from Jay Peirce, the MEC Chairman at Continental Airlines. I am also writing this to urge to vote for USAPA.

Let me start by saying that in 2001, I wanted nothing more than to have ALPA on the property here at Continental. Growing up and watching my father serve as an ALPA LEC Rep and Council Chairman had made me believe that ALPA was the way to go. I always knew that my father was fighting for either the career preservation or improvement of his fellow pilots. When we here at CAL were faced with the vote I thought it was a simple choice. I talked my father and was shocked when he told me it was best to stay Independent and that it will be the better choice for the long haul. He told me of the pitfalls and of how little power the pilots really have under ALPA. He warned that once some of the so called volunteers were in, they became lifers motivated by self interest and said I need look no farther than the one MEC vice-chairmen of the eighties, he is still wearing a suit and tie and he is the VP of Finance today. You will pay for the all the trapping, pomp and circumstance of a national union with no sense of the profession and receive less efficient bargaining and be tied to policies that try to serve to many masters and likely not serve your own pilot group well. Well I didn’t listen I voted ALPA and regret it now more that ever.

The airline business is full of people who have taken union positions and then migrated to management. There is plenty of opportunity for those in union positions to sell out to management when they are in power, no matter who the union is. Also, the desire and ability to lead and to be in a position of power is a personality trait that lends itself well to union leadership as well as management. Therefore, it should come as no surprise that this happens. If you expect anything else, you are fooling yourself. The important thing is that those who are in power are loyal to their constituents while in that position.

It didn’t take long to realize that it was a mistake. Contract ’02 negotiations were delayed from the start following the 9/11 Attacks. Airline management used this against all Airlines. We saw A Plans go, some without union ratification, pay cuts, work rule changes, and the list goes on. Well instead of ALPA National standing up and rallying all the Airline pilots to fight the fight, ALPA sat back and watched each airline go their own way. Meanwhile APA, the union that represents American Pilots didn’t back down that easy. Despite the fact that they were near bankruptcy the fought back against Management theft and preserved their A Plan, maintained the best B Plan in the industry and had snap back provisions.

I beg to differ. There are no snap back provisions in the AA contract. The APA was smart enough to realize that they needed to give huge concessions to keep the airline out of BK and that's what they did. They came within a hairs breadth of being in the same boat as US, NW, DL, etc.

Here at CAL under the first and only ALPA contract I have experienced, things are not better, they are worse. Keep in mind that we were not threatened by Bankruptcy or in Bankruptcy like American or US Airways. We had a CEO that told us we are better than everyone else, our cost are lower, and that we are prepared to fly into the future with our young fleet. Yet the independent union at APA far out negotiated our ALPA contingent and the engineered the replacement of their CEO to boot.

Is this guy high? The APA did not "engineer" the replacement of their CEO. Carty got busted because he set up a BK-proof golden parachute plan for himself and other top management prior to asking the unions for concessions and tried to keep it a secret. When it was discovered, ALL the unions on the property raised hell, and he resigned in disgrace.

Here are just a few things that were given up;

-Replacing line construction with a preferential bidding system that is a mess. PBS doesn’t fully honor seniority and if you are not a program specialist every month is a crap shoot. Pilots are putting off upgrade and transitions because the schedules are so bad. We have pilots in the 60% holding B757/B767 Captain and 2 year pilots as B737 Captains because no body wants them. Well more than a thousand pilots bypassed upgrade to Captain.

-The way our Vacations and training are credited make for an awful bid month. I hold a better schedule without vacation than I do with a vacation week.

-Our Frozen A plan is just that frozen not protected.

-We have no Snap Back. ALPA negotiations will start below where ALPA experts left us 6 years ago.

-There is no Schedule Improvement again because of PBS.

-As Part of Contract ’02, we had a side letter that protected us in case the other Union Groups didn’t ratify their contracts. We didn’t have to honor our contract until such a time that all employees took pay cuts. Well that side letter didn’t last ONE DAY. Our then MEC Chairman, Captain Jay Panarello, gave CAL Management the green light for the concessions, WITHOUT Membership Approval. Is this really what you want in a Union.

This is all stuff that has nothing to do with ALPA and would/could have just as easily occurred with an independant union on the property.

Ladies and Gentlemen we are not better off with ALPA. There is no National Unity, there is no National Expertise, there is No 61,000 Strong, there is No Merger Protection, No Seniority Protection, No Insurance or Medical protection. All of the above can be attained or protected just as easy with an Independent Union. I am working under the worse conditions of my career. Other than hourly rate I had a better Quality of life under the Old Frank Lorenzo Pilot Employment Policy when hired in 1990 than I do under an ALPA Contract.

Remember You are the Union, You are what makes it strong and you have the chance to Own your Union and not come second the interest of others or the Union itself. Just ask yourself, are the pilots at Southwest, UPS, American, AirTran worse off than us ALPA Carriers, or has their Independent Unions served them well?

In closing I am embarrassed of our Union President, in 15 moths at the helm he has signed a Comair concessionary contract, and done more to divide pilots than anyone before him.

OK, something we agree on.

While we all continue to live in an uncertain environment with Losses in Pay and Quality of Life, our fearless leaders continue to live like fat cats. I ask, “John Prater, How is that taking it back?”

I fully support the USAPA efforts and will continue to see all pilots as my brothers and sisters no matter what the paint scheme on the airframe is. I urge each and everyone of you to vote for USAPA.

Fraternally,

Roger Hall II
EWR B737 Captain

ALPA is not perfect, but the framework is there. Lets fix it.

 

[JoeMerchant]

ALPA is not perfect, but the framework is there. Lets fix it.

The USAPA drive may help "fix" it....It will take a major external threat to "fix" ALPA......