ALPA TAX, err I mean DUES...

[enuffalready]

How do we get ALPA off property? At least without my rediculous ALPA tax on every paycheck I can have my own 401k matching..

 

[suupah]

thats one i haven't heard proposed. stop paying alpa dues until they start growing bigger muscle. I am sure someone else would step up to the occasion quickly if alpa didn't

 

[TWA]

It's kinda hard to stop paying union dues when they are deducted BEFOR you get your check. The only difference between unions and management is that unions are trying to screw management AND you at the same time. What do you really gain when the pay raise that you might have gotten from the union is taken by the union.

 

[Magneto]

And everyone rips on SkyWest for not being ALPA. It seems ALPA has no supporters now. What say ye?!

 

[MECH]

You may not agree with ALPA but they do provide alot of services other then bargin contracts.

In CLE the FAA set up a ILS and LDA to 24R & L. They had all the equipment installed and ready to start letting you and I fly approachs there.

ALPA safety reviewed the way we were projected to fly it and found it very unsafe. The FAA was forced to review their plan. If there was no pilots from ALPA to review this approach we would all complain everytime we flew it, all saying that this is going to cause an accident.

This happens every week, just look what is happening at the non union mines. Two accidents in a month. Even FOX news reported that becuase they were non-union mines, that the miners were pushed to get the job done.

 

[BluDevAv8r]

How do we get ALPA off property? At least without my rediculous ALPA tax on every paycheck I can have my own 401k matching..

A union is only as strong as its individual membership and MEC. If you are dissatisfied, look at yourself and the rest of your pilot group and place your frustration there.

And if your frustration lies with the state of the industry (and the fact that you aren't at a major by 25 making $100-200k per year, perhaps you should place your blame where it counts...and not on the easiest target.

Seems to me like your expectations for what ALPA can and can't do are a little out of wack with reality.

-Neal

 

[BluDevAv8r]

thats one i haven't heard proposed. stop paying alpa dues until they start growing bigger muscle. I am sure someone else would step up to the occasion quickly if alpa didn't

You can stop paying dues...and then your MEC can have you terminated in most cases. Your choice.

-Neal

 

[FSB99]

is that standard at most alpa airlines? i know at ours that's the protocol. just curious.

 

[BluDevAv8r]

is that standard at most alpa airlines? i know at ours that's the protocol. just curious.

One can look at the Union Dues/Security or Dues Checkoff section of their contract to see...but I am fairly certain that there are provisions in every CBA to terminate a delinquent pilot. Now if a pilot wants to pay the service fee only...1.45% I believe, he can do that and save a little bit of money (but not get some of the benefits).

-Neal

 

[CaptBud330]

Non-member dues paying

You can actually quit ALPO. You are still required to pay dues but at a reduced rate. It's called germane dues. You pay for only what benefits ALPO provides that directly effect you. It works out to about a .15% reduction in dues.
It is possible to decertify ALPO as your bargaining agent. First, you need to get enough support to vote on decertification. Then, you get to vote on actually doing it. Most pilots that complain about ALPO don't have the cajones to actually vote them out when it comes right down to it. It's so much easier to complain. But keep in mind, ANYTHING ALPO does could be duplicated cheaper. With Duane Worthless not taking concessions and raking in over 400K, I think it would be very fitting to stick it to ALPO.

 

[PCL_128]

thats one i haven't heard proposed. stop paying alpa dues until they start growing bigger muscle. I am sure someone else would step up to the occasion quickly if alpa didn't

Please do! After you've been in bad standing for a few months, the MEC will tell management to remove your name from the seniority list and you'll be terminated. At least you won't have to pay those pesky ALPA dues!

 

[PCL_128]

But keep in mind, ANYTHING ALPO does could be duplicated cheaper.

Really? So you think a single pilot group could duplicate the aeromedical department, legal department, CIRP group, accident investigation resources, etc... that ALPA provides? The ignorance and arrogance of the average line pilot is astounding. I would expect better from someone with the quals listed in your profile, but some people are just hopelessly ignorant I suppose.

 

[BluDevAv8r]

Really? So you think a single pilot group could duplicate the aeromedical department, legal department, CIRP group, accident investigation resources, etc... that ALPA provides? The ignorance and arrogance of the average line pilot is astounding. I would expect better from someone with the quals listed in your profile, but some people are just hopelessly ignorant I suppose.

Most pilots wouldn't feel this way if the industry were 180 from the way it is now. They are projecting their own frustrations from the reality of the situation onto an easy target...that of their national union. Couple that with unrealistic expectations and it is an easy recipe for widespread dissatisfaction.

-Neal

 

[CaptBud330]

PLC_128 you don't have a clue

PLC_128, I have more taxi time then you have total time. I am certainly not ignorant.
To prove my point, only 30% of your ALPO dues comes back to your particular airline for administrative purposes. that leaves a full 70% used by ALPO to waste on your behalf. I ran the numbers years ago and yes, you could get the best Mayo Clinic doctors and F.Lee Bailey to help you if needed for 1% of your W2 as opposed to 1.85% ALPO is currently assessing.
ALPO is a waste. If you think otherwise, you're the ignorant one.

 

[BenderGonzales]

PCL_128 said, "the aeromedical department, legal department, CIRP group, accident investigation resources, etc..."

Those are valuable resources -- which could be duplicated by a $39/yr AOPA membership.

That's not why ALPA exists. If they are failing in their duty of fair representation than I have every expectation that people will quit. Another option is cancelling the dues check-off. Have ALPO send you a bill every month.

As long as you're paying "something" towards the bill you can not be put in bad standing. So send them $1 a month. <shrug>

I personally agree that ALPA has turned into a very fat business enterprise. Their representational duties could be duplicated for a fraction of the cost if an in-house association were formed.

At least if it's in house there's a better chance that money will be spent as if it were your OWN. No $400,000 salaries. No Executive Council meetings in Miami. No 100% flight pay loss. No local council meetings at resort hotels. No catered dinners. Every penny going to represent pilots.

But some of you... PCL... are just lemmings I guess. JUMP!

 

[flx757]

I have worked for an "in-house". There was no shortage of monies being used for "executive meetings in XXX, local council meetings at resort hotels, catered dinners, etc". Every penny was FAR from going to "represent pilots".

I have worked at non-union companies, ALPA companies and in-house companies. Each had it's particular share of problems and none was the nirvana that everyone seems to believe exists on the other side of that fence. They are what YOU make of it. The sooner everyone comes to understand this then the better you will be equipped to deal with it in whatever way you see fit as opposed to simply finding someone at whom to point fingers or deflect blame.

 

[100LL... Again!]

PCL is a little boy who paid his way in and now wants to pretend to be a man.

He waits with jowls slobbering for his first chance to deny a GJ jumpseater.

He's a PFT whore who is trying to redeem himself by bashing others.
You're not a real pilot PCL, you came out of a vending machine.

 

[PCL_128]

PLC_128, I have more taxi time then you have total time. I am certainly not ignorant.

Flight time does not equal knowledge of ALPA. Some of the most senior major airline pilots are the most ignorant of how ALPA works. It's sad.

To prove my point, only 30% of your ALPO dues comes back to your particular airline for administrative purposes. that leaves a full 70% used by ALPO to waste on your behalf. I ran the numbers years ago and yes, you could get the best Mayo Clinic doctors and F.Lee Bailey to help you if needed for 1% of your W2 as opposed to 1.85% ALPO is currently assessing.
ALPO is a waste. If you think otherwise, you're the ignorant one.

To put it simply, your numbers aren't even close to accurate. Yes, pilots at majors do pay more than they get back, but that's only true at the biggest airlines with the highest pay. All of the regionals actually receive more money back from ALPA than they pay in. If you ever have the misfortune of needing medical or legal advice, then I would wager that your opinion of ALPA's services will change. Not to mention the hundreds of pilots that ALPA has helped with their alcohol and substance abuse problems through HIMS that would have lost their careers without ALPA's help. Then there's the resources for accident investigation that no stand-alone union could ever provide. How about the safety advocacy that ALPA provides? Like I said, no independent union can possibly provide even a fraction of the services and benefits that ALPA provides for a measly 1.95% of your pay.

CaptBud330, have you ever volunteered for a single ALPA committee at any point in your career? I doubt it. Most of the people who complain never even lift a finger to make a difference. If things are so bad, then maybe you should run for an elected position. Just a thought.

 

[BluDevAv8r]

PCL_128 said, "the aeromedical department, legal department, CIRP group, accident investigation resources, etc..."

Those are valuable resources -- which could be duplicated by a $39/yr AOPA membership.

I disagree. AOPA does not have any accident investigation department...they do have a Safety Foundation but it has a fraction of the experience and resources of ALPA. Apples and oranges frankly. AOPA survives and thrives on its sheer numbers. There are over 406,000 members and at $39/member, that is about $16 million per year in revenue. ALPA has 66,000 members, which is 16% of the membership of AOPA. And ALPA has many more resources and staff to fund...hence the 1.95%, which equates to a budget worth tens of millions of dollars obviously.

That's not why ALPA exists. If they are failing in their duty of fair representation than I have every expectation that people will quit. Another option is cancelling the dues check-off. Have ALPO send you a bill every month.

Quitting is one option. Getting involved and being proactive to fix the problem is another (more productive) solution (in my opinion).

As long as you're paying "something" towards the bill you can not be put in bad standing. So send them $1 a month. <shrug>

Uh, I'm not so sure about that...this definitely is not the case at my airline. You are considered a MIBS if you are not fully paid up.

I personally agree that ALPA has turned into a very fat business enterprise. Their representational duties could be duplicated for a fraction of the cost if an in-house association were formed.

That is simply not true at all. If it were, then why would the APA and NPA be purchasing services on a contract basis from ALPA? You are making blanket statements with no factual evidence or basis.

At least if it's in house there's a better chance that money will be spent as if it were your OWN. No $400,000 salaries. No Executive Council meetings in Miami. No 100% flight pay loss. No local council meetings at resort hotels. No catered dinners. Every penny going to represent pilots.

You might be surprised to know that catering MEC meetings is cheaper than paying out the GSA rate (max government allowed per diem rate). We cater our MEC meetings at my airline and it costs $7/head instead of the $11 to $22 per meal that we would pay if we all bought our own food. Much cheaper to cater on a per head basis.

Big hotels for the Bi-Annual ALPA Board meeting? Yes...because there are over 700 people who attend that meeting (happens once every 2 years). There are very few all-union hotels that can handle an event that size. And FYI, the 2006 Board isn't in Miami.

You might also be surprised to know that ALPA has, over the past 2 years, undergone significant cost-cutting and streamlining...all to handle the large number of concessionary agreements that have been passed (less dues revenue). You would also be surprised to know that the National officers' salaries are based off of the highest paying positions at ALPA carriers...so, if the legacy carriers have taken concessions (and they have), then so have the officers, by virtue of that pay system.

If your MEC officers are on 100% FPL and aren't flying back a portion of that, then you should speak with your elected reps.

But some of you... PCL... are just lemmings I guess. JUMP!

Not exactly...

-Neal

 

[BluDevAv8r]

PLC_128, I have more taxi time then you have total time. I am certainly not ignorant.
To prove my point, only 30% of your ALPO dues comes back to your particular airline for administrative purposes. that leaves a full 70% used by ALPO to waste on your behalf. I ran the numbers years ago and yes, you could get the best Mayo Clinic doctors and F.Lee Bailey to help you if needed for 1% of your W2 as opposed to 1.85% ALPO is currently assessing.
ALPO is a waste. If you think otherwise, you're the ignorant one.

Your analysis and assumptions are way off, despite your vast amounts of time taxiing an airplane. At my airline, we bring in roughly $2 million per year at 1.95%. That would be $1 million at 1% roughly. There is no way we could run an effective union on $2 million if we were to operate independently, let alone $1 million.

-Neal

 

[pianoman]

Yeah. All those stupid ALPA committees like safety, security, jumpseat and hotels. Who uses that stuff?

Just out of curiosity, what would an independent pilot union do differently to fix everything? I think American took pay cuts too, right?

I have worked under IACP (Independent Association of Continental Pilots) and ALPA and prefer ALPA.

Besides, if you don't like DW, get off your arse and get your reps to vote differently in the upcoming election. I don't like GWB but that doesn't mean I'm moving to Canada.

 

[PCL_128]

As long as you're paying "something" towards the bill you can not be put in bad standing. So send them $1 a month. <shrug>

Be careful of the advice you give people. It could end up doing some harm. As BluDevAv8r said, what you said isn't correct. If you are past due on your dues for too long, then the MEC can take action to remove you from the seniority list and you will subsequently be terminated (FedEx is the exception since they are not agency shop). The only way you can get away with paying less than the amount due is if you work out a payment plan, and that requires you to submit all of your financial records to ALPA to prove that you can't afford to pay lump sum.

 

[A350]

How is it that FedEx isn't an agency shop?

The fact that the regionals get more money back than they put in speaks volumes about ALPA.....the regionals live off the mainline teat some more.

A350

 

[BluDevAv8r]

How is it that FedEx isn't an agency shop?

The fact that the regionals get more money back than they put in speaks volumes about ALPA.....the regionals live off the mainline teat some more.

A350

It isn't just the regionals...it is all carriers such as Aloha, Midwest, ATA, etc. They all get back more than they put in. That is the whole concept of unity...it is a socialistic view of the world to some extent.

-Neal

 

[BenderGonzales]

<edited> Forget it. Not worth the wasted bandwidth. Once you've paid $12,000 for 250 hours in the right seat of a Beech you communicate on an entirely different frequency.

 

[Flyerjosh]

How is it that FedEx isn't an agency shop?

The fact that the regionals get more money back than they put in speaks volumes about ALPA.....the regionals live off the mainline teat some more.

A350

And the mainline teat lives off of membership numbers brought to the table by the regionals, which equates to leverage on capital hill.

Either way, I think that the national union is broken. The whole concept of the RLA is broken. The truth of the matter is that ALPA national cannot represent the interests of every pilot group that it represents. There are severe conflict of interest issues with regards to scope, jets for jobs, and collective bargining (one airline vs another). I have seen no unity across the industry, which is a major point of having a national union.

I don't question the value of some of the benefits that ALPA brings to the table in terms of safety and member services. However, I'm a firm believer that something in the system needs to change, and soon, or ALPA will do nothing but eventually tear itself to parts.

On the local level, I think that my former MEC was pretty decent. However at the national level, I have seen no benefit from my dues paid.