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ALPA reconsiders age 60!

  • Thread starter Thread starter Dizel8
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GCD said:
No, FoxHunter,


These were US prices by US doctors in US clinics that were certified to do the JCAB medical.
The potential cost of a physical is small change when everything else is considered. Every pilot that retires where I work causes up to 10 pilots getting requalified, that is 10 pilots getting full pay for being non productive for three months. Now talk about pension funding you are starting to talk about real money. The higher the retirement age, the lower the funding level required. The DB pensions at Delta, American, NWA, Alaskan may avoid termination, USAir is long gone, and UALs pensions will probably be terminated in the next 90 days if reports are correct.

The JCAB medical is expensive at age 25 so trying to make that a concern is really a not an issue.
 
FoxHunter,

That's where you are mistaken. The financial burdon of those FAA medicals, if required, will be an issue for those 50 year old+ers at Comair, ASA, ET AL, who may not make as much as an MD-11 captain. Maybe $4,000 is chump change for you to keep your medical, but it's not chump change for everyone who will desire to fly past 60 on the regional level.

And yes, there are a lot of 50+ers at Comair, ASA, and others.
 
GCD said:
FoxHunter,

That's where you are mistaken. The financial burdon of those FAA medicals, if required, will be an issue for those 50 year old+ers at Comair, ASA, ET AL, who may not make as much as an MD-11 captain. Maybe $4,000 is chump change for you to keep your medical, but it's not chump change for everyone who will desire to fly past 60 on the regional level.

And yes, there are a lot of 50+ers at Comair, ASA, and others.
Just taking you at your $4000 physicals. I see no real change from the present numbers $75 to $150 physical. In the event that physicals do get expensive, lets say $600 not your mythical $4000 I'll bet that those Comair, ASA, and other guys would be glad to pay it if the other choice is getting tossed out on the street.
 
Freight Dog said:
Couldn't have said it better... not to mention that there are tens of thousands of pilots who are furloughed right now...

31 1/2 years left...

Double Ditto.

It won't get my vote. I'm thinking about retiring at 50, there is way too much else to do in this life. How about this for rediculous, why don't they just get rid of it altogether and make us work 'til we drop dead.
 
OPTION of RETIRING at above 60 hurts NO ONE!

Why is raising the retirement age bad for ANYONE???


Retire at 40, 50, or 60 if you want!! Raising the retirement age won't stop you from retiring!!

If you have the money in your 401(k), IRAs, or mutual funds at 40 retire!! A lot of the pension plans let you retire as early as 50. This won't change.


I'm at Comair and there are a lot of guys that are about to retire that say they will have to work in retirement. They didn't plan that well. Raising the retirement age helps those that can't afford to retire, which is a very large number of pilots.

It hurts NO ONE AND ONLY HELPS MANY MORE.

Jet
 
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jetflyer said:
Why is raising the retirement age bad for ANYONE???


Retire at 40, 50, or 60 if you want!! Raising the retirement age won't stop you from retiring!!

If you have the money in your 401(k), IRAs, or mutual funds at 40 retire!! A lot of the pension plans let you retire as early as 50. This won't change.


I'm at Comair and there are a lot of guys that are about to retire that say they will have to work in retirement. They didn't plan that well. Raising the retirement age helps those that can't afford to retire, which is a very large number of pilots.

It hurts NO ONE AND ONLY HELPS MANY MORE.

Jet

It does depending on how your contract is written. A percentage is taken off for every year that you retire before 60. Now, if that doesn't change I'm ok with it, but then your FAE will also be less if you want to retire before because you won't be bidding as high as you would otherwise.
 
I see your point SMMustang,

But the percentage retiring before a certain point won't even be an issue if the UNION doesn't allow it to be.

The UNION can say, you'll get your full pension anytime you retire after 60.

The PENSION is usually always less than when you work. This would give PILOTS incentive to work if they couldn't AFFORD to retire yet, like a UNITED AIRLINES OR US AIRWAYS pilot, to stay and work and INVEST the extra money they get that would be ABOVE what they would get from the Pension.

Also at 60 you can't get Social insecurity yet either. So if they changed the MANDATORY retirement age to later, you would atleast get closer to the social security age requirement.

I really see no issues with this if the UNIONS don't allow it to be an issue. You should still be able to retire at 40,50,or 60 if you want. Also if you retire at 60 you should still get full pension.

Jet
 
Hurts Nobody???

I'm relatively new to this gig, but it seems to me moving the retirement age affects everyone. Somebody chime in and tell me where I'm off here:
(1) For the junior guys, if the age limit is raised 5 years, you'll have to add five years to your current seat position and relative seniority before you can upgrade (equals lower pay for now)
(2) For the junior captains, that same 5 year wait for better lines (equals less "equivalent" pay for quality-of-life)
(3) For the senior guys, you have to work longer to get a full retirement (equals less retirement at age 60, based on most retirement models)
(4) For the company, more cash spent on high-end wages to senior captains (equals less cashflow, and we all know what that does...)
(5) For everyone, we have a longer wait 'til retirement.
Seems to me everyone is affected. Funny thing is, none of this has anything to do with air safety, which, I believe, was the original reason behind the age 60 rule. If safety is the concern, why all the pay considerations?

Raising the retirement age only seems to benefit those who, for whatever reason, have lost a good portion of their retirement pay close to retirement. Insert your favorite expletive here, but that loss seems to be solely on the shoulders of the management at companies who are allowed to slash pension funds. I believe that cutting pensions after the fact should be a federal crime, but I don't think that the pilots of today's industry should foot the burden for unf***ing it!

As I zip up my flame-retardant suit, I must say I sympathize with those who stand to lose a lot of retirement REAL soon (UAIR, United) and I don't buy the idea that "they should have made better fiscal plans on their own"; most people will end up living at or above their means. But I don't believe it's a problem the overall workforce should be required to absorb.

BTW, most of the folks who would benefit right now from increasing the age limit have probably enjoyed a significant degree of prosperity from the mandatory (age-60) retirements of their predecessors...
 
A little late for this but...

FoxHunter said:
Most of those 60+ pilots had spent years on furlough earlier in their career. I have 8 1/2 years of furlough, how many do you have?:)
I can understand both sides of the arguement but I personally feel we should leave it as is until the industry recovers as it would no doubt delay/increase the number of F's. The comment above is the one that REALLY chaps my a$$. Just because you were F'd doesn't mean that it's right or that everyone needs to have the experiece. It doesn't make you a true airline pilot, it makes you an unfortunate b@st@rd. I really hate when old dudes say "well, I was F'd for X many years, so the new guys should have to learn to deal with it".
 
LEROY said:
Seems to me everyone is affected. Funny thing is, none of this has anything to do with air safety, which, I believe, was the original reason behind the age 60 rule.
Leroy,

I believe the generally accepted reason for the age 60 retirement was a back room deal made by then CEO of AA C.R. Smith and the newly appointed Administrator of the FAA E.R. Quesada. CR wanted to get rid of the more senior pilots and Quesada went along with it. By the way, I also believe that after leaving his FAA post Quesada got a cushy spot on the Board of Directors of AA or some such other spot. CR made some type of mumbo jumbo about the older pilots not being able to transition to the new jets that were coming on line. But it was a given that he simply wanted to unload the more senior/older/higher paid pilots.
 
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LEROY said:
I'm relatively new to this gig, but it seems to me moving the retirement age affects everyone. Somebody chime in and tell me where I'm off here:
(1) For the junior guys, if the age limit is raised 5 years, you'll have to add five years to your current seat position and relative seniority before you can upgrade (equals lower pay for now)
(2) For the junior captains, that same 5 year wait for better lines (equals less "equivalent" pay for quality-of-life)
(3) For the senior guys, you have to work longer to get a full retirement (equals less retirement at age 60, based on most retirement models)
(4) For the company, more cash spent on high-end wages to senior captains (equals less cashflow, and we all know what that does...)
(5) For everyone, we have a longer wait 'til retirement.
Seems to me everyone is affected. Funny thing is, none of this has anything to do with air safety, which, I believe, was the original reason behind the age 60 rule. If safety is the concern, why all the pay considerations?

Raising the retirement age only seems to benefit those who, for whatever reason, have lost a good portion of their retirement pay close to retirement. Insert your favorite expletive here, but that loss seems to be solely on the shoulders of the management at companies who are allowed to slash pension funds. I believe that cutting pensions after the fact should be a federal crime, but I don't think that the pilots of today's industry should foot the burden for unf***ing it!

As I zip up my flame-retardant suit, I must say I sympathize with those who stand to lose a lot of retirement REAL soon (UAIR, United) and I don't buy the idea that "they should have made better fiscal plans on their own"; most people will end up living at or above their means. But I don't believe it's a problem the overall workforce should be required to absorb.

BTW, most of the folks who would benefit right now from increasing the age limit have probably enjoyed a significant degree of prosperity from the mandatory (age-60) retirements of their predecessors...
1. Possibly, but many will still retire at age 60.

2. Those junior Captains will still eventually be senior Captains, but in the end will have been Captains longer and with the change in age some of the pension plans may survive.

3. Many will have a full retirement at or before age 60, but many will not unless the age is changed because their original airline no longer exists, Braniff, EAL, TWA, Pan Am, USAIR, UAL, Delta.

4. You have to replace the 60 year old 777 on max 12th year pay with another Captain making 12th year pay. With few exceptions all the pay rates are the same or close. Then you have to pay for the noproductive time these replacement pilots are in school.

5. The original reason for the rule is that there was no rule and airline management wanted to impose a mandatory age 60 retirement. ALPA fought it in arbitration and won. Then C.R. Smith, CEO of American, wrote his war time buddy Gen. Pete Quesada, the first FAA Administrator, to explain his problem in training old pilots in these new 707s American was getting and how expensive it was. A few months later the rule was proposed and the rest is history. Funny thing is that after Pete retired from the FAA position he took a position on the BOD of American.:)
 
From the PPF web site


The truth about the origins of the age 60 rule is disclosed by two contemporaneous sources of credible evidence: (1) a 1961 paper by a Stanford Business School professor, Karl Ruppenthal, recounting the open history of the origin and preparation of the rule, and (2) an extensive and hitherto private collection of FAA documents amassed by Dr. Homer Reighard, who had been at the FAA during the rule's inception, and who retained the documents until his retirement as Federal Air Surgeon 1984. The Reighard files were obtained through litigation under the Freedom of Information Act. Any doubt that the age 60 rule originated in labor strife, or that its purpose was to resolve the labor dispute in management's favor, is dispelled by Reighard's trove and Ruppenthal's paper. The latter recounted that in the mid to late 1950s several airlines sought unilaterally to impose age-60 retirement policies. At three carriers (Western, TWA and American), however, the pilots resisted through their contract grievance machinery. All three of these grievances were decided in favor of the pilots' position through neutral arbitration. Western Airlines defended its position by arguing that the issue was not suitable for arbitration because it concerned the safety of the carrier's operations. The arbitrator rejected each of Western's purported "safety" arguments, ruling:
There is no testimonial basis and no 'fact of life' on which we could be expected to take a kind of 'judicial notice' that supports the view that it is unsafe to let a pilot perform after the age of 60. That is not to say that there is not some age - - say 90 - - when we would take judicial notice of physical impairment beyond all reason. It is enough to say that the evidence here does not support the theory that the attainment of age 60 is in itself enough to disqualify a pilot.

American Airlines adamantly refused to comply with the binding arbitration. Management noncompliance with the arbitration order became an issue in a costly strike that lasted from December 20, 1958 to January 10, 1959. Smith agreed to reinstate the pilots as part of the settlement of the strike - but delayed doing so while conspiring with Quesada to engineer the imposition of the company's age 60 rule as a federal regulation. Administrator Quesada retired shortly thereafter and promptly was elected to a seat on the Board of Directors of American Airlines.

The true origin of the age 60 rule is revealed in secret letters that Smith wrote to Quesada. In a February 5, 1959 letter on his personal stationery, Smith wrote to Quesada:

Dear Pete:

During the course of our recent negotiations with the pilot's [sic] association we found it unwilling to agree to the company's policy concerning retirement of air line pilots at age 60.

I have no specific recommendation to make to you at this time. It appears obvious that there must be some suitable agre [sic] for retirement. It appears equally obvious that as men become older the result of the usual physical examination becomes less conclusive.

It may be necessary for the regulatory agency to fix some suitable age for retirement.

Ten months to the day from Smith's first private request, the age 60 rule became a federal regulation with full force of law - purportedly justified, as Smith had suggested, by conclusory assertions of medical uncertainties.

Within eleven days of Smith's plaintive plea of February 5, a four-page medical justification for the rule had been drafted. Within about four months, the Notice of Proposed Rulemaking (NPRM) was published in the Federal Register - replete with purported medical justifications.

On March 9th, just over one month from the date of Smith's letter, Reighard himself (apparently not yet fully "in the loop") prepared a memo to the Acting Chief Civil Air Surgeon, noting that airline captains were required to accomplish a proficiency check twice yearly, and suggesting that this proof of "ability to perform under realistic flight conditions" should be a reasonable test of airline pilots. Reighard further suggested that the FAA consider offering its services to the airline companies to "interpret existing medical knowledge" to ensure the adequacy of age considerations during the required periodic testing regimes. The suggestions apparently fell on deaf ears, as there is no evidence that they were ever acted on.

A "Record of Visit" retained in the Reighard files dated February 8, 1960 recounts a visit in which a supporter of the recently adopted age 60 rule claimed that the older pilots passed their physicals by going to the same doctor who "does not give a very rigid physical." As an addendum, the writer stated that "Dr. Reighard checked a sample of ten of the forty pilots known to be active airline pilots over 60 and found that no two of the ten went to the same examiner." (There were not forty pilots known by the FAA at that time to be over 60 and active airline pilots. A little over two months earlier, the Air Surgeon, James Goddard, had explained that the number 40 was nothing more than an approximation based on the fact that there were seven pilots over 60 at Eastern Air Lines, and that Eastern Air Lines was thought to represent "a one-sixth sample of the total air carrier pilot population." )

Correspondence between Quesada and the Rev. Theodore Hesburg, president of Notre Dame University, indicates that the Administrator spared no effort in seeking endorsements for the proposed age rule. Father Hesburg admitted he had no relevant expertise, but gave his endorsement anyway. Quesada, in turn, admitted that he also had no data on which to base the proposal, and was aware that he was on treacherous ground when he asked for confidentiality because "premature revelation might make [the regulations] much more difficult to achieve."

Smith, of American Airlines, in a letter to Clarence Sayen, the president of the pilots' union, disingenuously sought agreement on the retirement issue or, alternatively, agreement to petition FAA for a regulation. What Smith withheld from the union was the fact that he already had approached Quesada directly and received the Administrator's promise of support, and knew full well that the FAA rulemaking process was well under way.

Responding to a request by Quesada, Smith prepared a three-page memo to Quesada April 30, 1959, on plain paper, with the notation, "Mail to home address." In it, Smith provided results of American's 707 jet retraining program, numbers of pilots already retired, and age groups of pilots then employed by the airline. The Administrator had charts prepared from Smith's transition training time data. These charts became Quesada's favorite presentation when arguing for the proposed rule. However, as documented herein, this argument was abandoned after it was reviewed by FAA attorneys, who recognized there was no objectively sound basis for the rule.

Primarily on the basis of a presentation of Smith's transition training time data at a June 3, 1959 meeting hosted by Quesada, an FAA Advisory Panel of eight hand-picked experts endorsed an age 55 limit for jet transition and, after some debate, an age 60 rule for retirement. Dr. James Birren, one of the original panel participants has declared that the unwitting panelists, unaware of the labor controversy surrounding the issue, agreed in favor of only temporary adoption of an age 60 retirement rule. The economic purpose of the age 60 rule was noted in a memo by B.W. Hogan, Rear Admiral, MC, USN, reporting on the panel's meeting. Hogan began his memo by repeating some of the data he obtained at the meeting: The older pilots' seniority allowed them to "bid in" to the jet positions; this meant a boost of $4,500-$5,000 a year (in 1959); and it "takes the older pilot longer, thus costing more money, to transition to the Jet aircraft."

The FAA obtained letters from the Department of Health, Education and Welfare providing data on "sudden attack" (arteriosclerotic, including coronary, heart disease and stroke) for "white males for the year 1957." But these July 1959 letters did not address the fact that, as a congressional report later noted, airline pilots did not fit the norm for "white males" but rather were a "highly select group…more free of serious pathology than a sample of general population of similar age."

Quesada - responding on August 5, 1959 to a request by ALPA's Sayen - admitted that FAA did not have in its possession "a comprehensive library of" reference materials on which the age 60 rulemaking process was based. Instead, Quesada provided a list of 41 documents that he said ALPA should review on its own, while he also said other (unspecified) documents would apply as well. In an unrelated deposition, Reighard revealed Quesada's list of 41 documents to an EEOC attorney who then collected the documents for review. The EEOC attorney found that many of the documents predated World War II, most concerned readily testable physiological functions, only eight had to do with accidents and age, only seven related to mental condition and age, and all of these looked at populations much younger or older than age 60. This list of outdated and largely irrelevant documents, provided at the request of an interested party, gains added significance in light of the fact that the FAA in 1973 lost the entire 1959 docket of age 60 rule materials.
 
It is what it is. We all knew it, now a small minority want it changed, because it does not suit their needs.

This opens a acan of worms and I am sure it could get ugly.

What about the guy who just turned sixty, if the rule is changed can he return and assume his old seniority? How about the 62 yo guy, can he return claiming age discrimination?

I say leave it alone and hopefully I can retire before sixty! If anything, we should get the Social security rule changed for pilots, since it is a mandated retirement. See no reaso why we should be penalized!
 
Dizel8 said:
It is what it is. We all knew it, now a small minority want it changed, because it does not suit their needs.

This opens a acan of worms and I am sure it could get ugly.

What about the guy who just turned sixty, if the rule is changed can he return and assume his old seniority? How about the 62 yo guy, can he return claiming age discrimination?

I say leave it alone and hopefully I can retire before sixty! If anything, we should get the Social security rule changed for pilots, since it is a mandated retirement. See no reaso why we should be penalized!
I think you may find it is far from a small minority that would like to work longer. Don't know about the guy that turned 60 and retired, but I'm sure if they are sitting in the back seat of a 727 or DC10 they will return to where they were forced from under the old rules.

Get the Social Security rules changed....you've got to be kidding. That was tried soon after the rule was put in place in 1959. The age for SS has been going up in case you have not noticed.
 
From a selfish POV this is how I see the age 60 rule.

Right now, NWAs recall policy is to replace retiring pilots only.

That means if the age 60 rule because 65 tomorrow and assuming no changes in fleet size or other economic variables...

I'd be furloughed for 5 more years.

The guy waiting to interview would have to wait 5 more years.

The guy sitting reserve would have to sit for 5 more years.

The guy waiting to upgreade would hve to wait 5 more years.

This only helps the guy who is sitting in the seat he wants to retire at already. Other than that, the brass ring gets put out 5 more years for everyone else.
 
You should all understand that all this carping for or against any change to the "age 60 rule" is moot. Nothing ALPA or the FAA says or does now will change the fact that three judges at the U.S Court of Appeals are now considering the FAA denial for exemption that 10 PPF members had requested. The court will decide whether the FAA has a leg to stand on.
 

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