ALPA reconsiders age 60!

[1-tacan-rule]

Whereas Airbus Jas posted the most accurate reply on this topic I've seen thusfar

Whereas 1-T-R is in complete agreement with Airbus Jas

Whereas 1-T-R along with THOUSANDS of other airline wannabes is totally **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED**ed if the age 60 is repealed and all those old Capt Richie Riches are allowed to continue making DR pay while working 12 days a month

Whereas all poor bastages who were looking to upgrade but may have to wait five more years are also **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED**ed

1-T-R does hereby summon all sprititual forces, good and evil, to **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED** this effort in its tracks.....please.....amen.....shallom.....

 

[1-tacan-rule]

Disney Version

Whereas Airbus Jas posted the most accurate reply on this topic I've seen thusfar

Whereas 1-T-R is in complete agreement with Airbus Jas

Whereas 1-T-R along with THOUSANDS of other airline wannabes is totally hozed if the age 60 is repealed and all those old Capt Richie Riches are allowed to continue making DR pay while working 12 days a month

Whereas all poor bastages who were looking to upgrade but may have to wait five more years are also hozed

1-T-R does hereby summon all spiritual forces, good and evil, to kill this effort in its tracks.....please.....amen.....shallom.....

 

[FoxHunter]

Don't forget that the airlines are against extending Age 60. Older pilots are out sick more often plus they're typically at the highest pay scale. Who will the Republican President and Congress listen to: the unions or the airlines?

Most older pilots are out sicker more because they don't get paid their accrued sick leave at retirement, use it or lose it. Solution, payout for unused sick leave at retirement.

 

[FoxHunter]

How would the FAA/ALPA/APA/SWAPA etc. decide on a cut off date for the pilots who are nearing 60/62/65?

Would pilots who have retired recently be allowed to get their seats back?

How many Delta pilots who have recently opt for early retirement actually return?

As mentioned in an earlier post, a lot of furloughed pilots could be on the street even longer, allowing the 60+ pilot to continue earning while the furloughed pilot continues to struggle for a flying job.

Thoughts?

FAA could care less. Congress may be the body that decides.

I guess the Delta pilots could come back if they wanted to give back their lump sum, but then why did they take it in the first place?

Most of those 60+ pilots had spent years on furlough earlier in their career. I have 8 1/2 years of furlough, how many do you have?

 

[FoxHunter]

Whereas Airbus Jas posted the most accurate reply on this topic I've seen thusfar

Whereas 1-T-R is in complete agreement with Airbus Jas

Whereas 1-T-R along with THOUSANDS of other airline wannabes is totally **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED**ed if the age 60 is repealed and all those old Capt Richie Riches are allowed to continue making DR pay while working 12 days a month

Whereas all poor bastages who were looking to upgrade but may have to wait five more years are also **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED**ed

1-T-R does hereby summon all sprititual forces, good and evil, to **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED** this effort in its tracks.....please.....amen.....shallom.....

You'll get your turn.

 

[PastFastMover]

In my opinion, and take that for whats it's worth, Flying past age 60 is a done deal. The only question is when it will happen. Hopefully, after I retire. The biggest pushers will be the pilots from those profitable LCC's with essentially no retirement and the pilots from the large ALPA carriers that have been devastated by inept and greedy management. I think those pilots pushing for it are only trying to make ends meet in their later years due to circumstances beyond their control. Who really wants to go from point A to point B till you croak unless you are forced to.

 

[46Driver]

In my opinion, and take that for whats it's worth, Flying past age 60 is a done deal. The only question is when it will happen. Hopefully, after I retire. The biggest pushers will be the pilots from those profitable LCC's with essentially no retirement and the pilots from the large ALPA carriers that have been devastated by inept and greedy management. I think those pilots pushing for it are only trying to make ends meet in their later years due to circumstances beyond their control. Who really wants to go from point A to point B till you croak unless you are forced to.

Well said. Not just the airlines, but fewer and fewer industries have defined benefit plans - they make the company less competitive in an increasingly brutal global environment. As for working longer, if you are living longer, logically, you will need to work longer to support your retirement. I don't know why that is so hard for people to accept.

 

[N1kawotg]

Of course all us young guys when we become 60 will not cry out or think of age discrimination when we still have house payments, kids in college, and more likely having to take care of our parents since S. S. will be a thing of the past? Its the only industry were you are forced out by age 60 by politicians in the 80's? Make those guys retire and get fresh ideas and policies in Congress. Just my .02 but how will you feel at age 60?

 

[N1kawotg]

Besides,if we have to retire at 60, all the frickin' golf course will be over booked. Maybe its time to by stock in golf?

 

[Old Jballer]

NO kidding I better be able to retire at 60 if not I cheated myself and certainly didn't invest correctly. 28 more years to go and looking forward to retirement.

 

[1-tacan-rule]

I don't get it. I don't think there are alot of 59.9 year old pilots at Commair and ACA (oh, sorry..Independance Air) who are newly on this bandwagon. So who is it? We all know that this is a direct result of guys (mostly at majors) planning on a certain retirement package and now possibly not getting it. To echo thoughts of an earlier post, airline pilot pay pre and post 9-11 was common knowledge. WTF did all the heavy USAir, Delta, United, et.al. Captains do with all that money they were making for several years before 9-11. I am REALLY sorry that they couldn't manage to put away a little of the $200K+ they were making before the bottom dropped out, and so now they are trying to milk a few more years at the top end. I hope it doesn't happen.

And another thing. Americans may be living longer...but the pilot population is not. Any data you look at show that life expectancy of pilots is well below the general population. These numbers are especially troubling when you consider that pilots are typically in better shape during their working years...so they should be living longer than the general population. So the logic that pilots should be able to work longer because they live longer doesn't hold water.

Finally, another more sensitive angle of this issue: (to steal from a DM line) my father is 65 and we don't trust him with the TV remote...not sure I want to trust him with landing a complex flying machine at mins after flying a red-eye. You (we) guys may think we get better with age (response time, learning ability, effects of upsetting circadium rythym, etc), but I'll bet you there's science to disprove this (and please no replies about Al Haines).

**No comment above is meant to insult members of AARP

 

[Dennis Miller]

But now I will be able to get a senior citizens discount on my first class medical, not to mention the restaurant discounts on the overnights.

 

[GCD]

Non US pilot age

Some of you have been listening to too much urban legend concerning non US pilot age retirements.

Yes, Japan has a max age limit of 63. However, a 60+ pilot may not command. He is limited to SIC duties.

Several countries will not allow a 60+ PIC to over-fly or fly into their country. A huge airspace that will not allow 60+ is Russia and most of the former Soviet Something-Or-Another-Stans. Ever try to get to Bangkok without flying over Vietnam (from the East)? They do not allow 60+ PIC's to over-fly.

I know Finland has a mandatory 55 retirement because a good friend was recently forced to retire.

I'm not against raising the US retirement age to physically and mentally fit pilots, but they would be limited, mostly, to fly US domestic only flights to be PIC's. Personally, I wouldn't mind flying international as an FO when I reach 60, but I don't think some egos could handle it.

My guess, if the mandatory retirement age is raised, the FAA will have a "special" medical screening which will consist of a cardio stress test and some type of cognitive screening. Of course, this will be a six month requirement, paid out of the pilot's pocket because insurance companies and airlines won't pay for it. The cost of this special medical will probably run into the $2,000 range, like the Japan JCAB medical that I took every six months.

If you don't mind paying out $4,000 a year in medicals, keep working out to keep fit, and you remember where you left your reading glasses every time you put them down, I say go for it.

 

[sf3boy]

I fly with a lot of captains at Mesaba that are in their fifties. They are quite worried about age 60, as we have no retirement except for a 401k. The 401k is not bad at all, but at the wages the regional pilots earn for being lesser pilots, it doesn't have the same staying power as the retirement packages of the majors. OF course, as somoene stated earlier, major airlines are just about the only companies that have defined benefit programs outside of the government. Medical coverage is another concern for these regional pilots. And in a few years, there will be a lot of regional pilots coming up on 60. The average age at the regionals is going to go way up since the majors still have furloughs and aren't looking to replace their retirees any time soon.

 

[FoxHunter]

Some of you have been listening to too much urban legend concerning non US pilot age retirements.

Yes, Japan has a max age limit of 63. However, a 60+ pilot may not command. He is limited to SIC duties.

Several countries will not allow a 60+ PIC to over-fly or fly into their country. A huge airspace that will not allow 60+ is Russia and most of the former Soviet Something-Or-Another-Stans. Ever try to get to Bangkok without flying over Vietnam (from the East)? They do not allow 60+ PIC's to over-fly.

I know Finland has a mandatory 55 retirement because a good friend was recently forced to retire.

I'm not against raising the US retirement age to physically and mentally fit pilots, but they would be limited, mostly, to fly US domestic only flights to be PIC's. Personally, I wouldn't mind flying international as an FO when I reach 60, but I don't think some egos could handle it.

My guess, if the mandatory retirement age is raised, the FAA will have a "special" medical screening which will consist of a cardio stress test and some type of cognitive screening. Of course, this will be a six month requirement, paid out of the pilot's pocket because insurance companies and airlines won't pay for it. The cost of this special medical will probably run into the $2,000 range, like the Japan JCAB medical that I took every six months.

If you don't mind paying out $4,000 a year in medicals, keep working out to keep fit, and you remember where you left your reading glasses every time you put them down, I say go for it.

Your making a few statements that are incorrect. JAL has Captains over age 60. They were as of a couple of years ago restricted to domestic during the initial test period. Not sure of the status now. Some Americans did go back to F/O. The one case I know of is a guy that was based in LAX and the FAA would not let any age 60+ PIC, but they do allow age 60+ SIC.

Both France and Italy do not allow age 60+ guys to overfly, but it is my understanding that due to EU rules that they will be forced to change their position in 2005. The JAA standard is age 65(Europe), but some carriers such as BA still force an age 55 retirement(actually age 56) because they retire on their 56th birthday.

Canada, Australia, and N.Z. have no mandatory retirement. Europe is 65, and the number of countries that have age 60 is quickly being reduced.

As far as the medicals you can pull any number out of the air.

 

[milflyboy]

1-tacan-rule wrote:

And another thing. Americans may be living longer...but the pilot population is not. Any data you look at show that life expectancy of pilots is well below the general population.

But is that due to their work or what they do in their sparetime

 

[GCD]

FoxHunter,
What few statements did I have incorrect? You just repeated what I said, except with a detail that I inadvertantly omitted. Maybe I should have said, "for international flights" for JCAB rules.

Yes, the JCAB did allow SOME captains to fly domestic ONLY over 60, but not over 63. The mandatory retirement is 63, not over the 63rd birthday.

JD in LAX was not allowed to fly PIC, not only by the FAA, but by several countries in SA that he would have to over fly. It's too bad because he is as competent as any 30 year old.

As far as numbers; I didn't pull them out of the air. That is exactly what it cost me, when I worked for JAL, to do my JCAB medical, with stress test. One even cost me nearly $3,000 with extra tests.

 

[FoxHunter]

FoxHunter,
What few statements did I have incorrect? You just repeated what I said, except with a detail that I inadvertantly omitted. Maybe I should have said, "for international flights" for JCAB rules.

Yes, the JCAB did allow SOME captains to fly domestic ONLY over 60, but not over 63. The mandatory retirement is 63, not over the 63rd birthday.

JD in LAX was not allowed to fly PIC, not only by the FAA, but by several countries in SA that he would have to over fly. It's too bad because he is as competent as any 30 year old.

As far as numbers; I didn't pull them out of the air. That is exactly what it cost me, when I worked for JAL, to do my JCAB medical, with stress test. One even cost me nearly $3,000 with extra tests.

Yea, but a bowl of soup and a beer is $20 over there.

 

[GCD]

No, FoxHunter,


These were US prices by US doctors in US clinics that were certified to do the JCAB medical.

 

[PastFastMover]

And another thing. Americans may be living longer...but the pilot population is not. Any data you look at show that life expectancy of pilots is well below the general population. These numbers are especially troubling when you consider that pilots are typically in better shape during their working years...so they should be living longer than the general population. So the logic that pilots should be able to work longer because they live longer doesn't hold water.

Tacan, I have always heard this theory thrown about since getting into the biz. I always thought it was just urban legend. If you have any data that supports this theory I would really like to read them. If I find that I am not going to be around that long then it is time to start spending asap. Thanks for any info you might have.