ALPA,CCair and Allegheny/Piedmont

[suupah]

Anyone in the KNOW care to comment on what happened with ALPA and CCair and also with the Allegheny/Piedmont merger?

these are common objections to ALPA.

 

[rustypigeon]

what do you want to know?

 

[FR8mastr]

ALG and PDT merged DOH with no issues. ALG is now gone.

 

[Raoul Duke]

CCAir pilots ratified a contract by 80 or 90 percent and Duane Woerth refused to sign it (first time in ALPA history) because the Mesa pilots were against it. The decision resulted in CCAir's shutdown and cost the CCAir guys their jobs

 

[WSurf]

CCAir pilots ratified a contract by 80 or 90 percent and Duane Woerth refused to sign it (first time in ALPA history) because the Mesa pilots were against it. The decision resulted in CCAir's shutdown and cost the CCAir guys their jobs

?????????????????????

 

[DoinTime]

CCAir pilots ratified a contract by 80 or 90 percent and Duane Woerth refused to sign it (first time in ALPA history) because the Mesa pilots were against it. The decision resulted in CCAir's shutdown and cost the CCAir guys their jobs

Thats a fantastic version of history. The internet is riddled with stories about CCAir try to google it.

In a nutshell the Mesa Air Group bought CCAir and JO told them that if they don't do the flying cheaper than the Mesa pilots (HUGE pay cuts for the CCAir guys) then they would be shut down. The CCAir MEC negotiated these huge cuts under duress and bypassed ALPA concessionary bargaining policy.

Because the regressionary bargaining violated ALPA policy (JO refused to open the books and there was no presentable financial need for the cuts) and this was done in an obvious attempt to undercut one pilot group with another DW refused to sign it....and rightfully so.

Sadly, many CCAir pilots lost their jobs at the hands of Ornstein but imagine a world where this little corporate tactic would have been successful.

 

[WSurf]

Thats a fantastic version of history. The internet is riddled with stories about CCAir try to google it.

In a nutshell the Mesa Air Group bought CCAir and JO told them that if they don't do the flying cheaper than the Mesa pilots (HUGE pay cuts for the CCAir guys) then they would be shut down. The CCAir MEC negotiated these huge cuts under duress and bypassed ALPA concessionary bargaining policy.

Because the regressionary bargaining violated ALPA policy (JO refused to open the books and there was no presentable financial need for the cuts) and this was done in an obvious attempt to undercut one pilot group with another DW refused to sign it....and rightfully so.

Sadly, many CCAir pilots lost their jobs at the hands of Ornstein but imagine a world where this little corporate tactic would have been successful.

That is more like the story. Sad day in CLT. I remember when JO ripped the very good CCAir Contract to shreds. I thought it was a great opportunity for the Mesa pilots to pick up the CCAir Contract and run with it. Instead a couple of days later there were 6 AirMidwest 1900's ready to take over CCAirs flying. And a bunch of pilot ready to jump right on the chance to get more flying at the expense of CCAir.

CCAir was a great bunch of folks!

 

[JoeMerchant]

Thats a fantastic version of history. The internet is riddled with stories about CCAir try to google it.

In a nutshell the Mesa Air Group bought CCAir and JO told them that if they don't do the flying cheaper than the Mesa pilots (HUGE pay cuts for the CCAir guys) then they would be shut down. The CCAir MEC negotiated these huge cuts under duress and bypassed ALPA concessionary bargaining policy.

Because the regressionary bargaining violated ALPA policy (JO refused to open the books and there was no presentable financial need for the cuts) and this was done in an obvious attempt to undercut one pilot group with another DW refused to sign it....and rightfully so.

Sadly, many CCAir pilots lost their jobs at the hands of Ornstein but imagine a world where this little corporate tactic would have been successful.

Ahhh....spoken like a true ALPA cheerleader.....

The CCAir pilots had one of the best contracts in the industry...They played the game and in the end the got screwed.....

ALPA groups undercut one another all the time....but this was the first and ONLY time that ALPA refused to sign an agreement that was ratified by the pilot group....Why hasn't ALPA done that before?

CCAir was an easy group to sacrifice....and ALPA did that...

Lesson to be learned: If you are a small group, ALPA will sacrifice you....If you are a large group...you can undercut anyone you want to...

 

[JoeMerchant]

Here is a copy of the lawsuit the CCAir pilots filed against ALPA....

http://www.rjdefense.com/kalikvalpa.doc

 

[DoinTime]

ALPA groups undercut one another all the time....but this was the first and ONLY time that ALPA refused to sign an agreement that was ratified by the pilot group....

Concessionary bargaining is a subject that is specifically spelled out in ALPA policy (you should know this Joe) and it is done so that a particular management group cannot solely use the job loss threat to wring concessions out of their pilots. The ALPA president cannot refuse to sign a contract that follows policy. Duane did what ALPA policy dictated.

Why hasn't ALPA done that before?

ALPA cannot make a subjective decision on whose agreements get signed and whose don't. This particular TA did not meet ALPA negotiating requirements. All others have and that is why they have all been signed.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Concessionary bargaining is a subject that is specifically spelled out in ALPA policy (you should know this Joe) and it is done so that a particular management group cannot solely use the job loss threat to wring concessions out of their pilots. The ALPA president cannot refuse to sign a contract that follows policy. Duane did what ALPA policy dictated.




ALPA cannot make a subjective decision on whose agreements get signed and whose don't. This particular TA did not meet ALPA negotiating requirements. All others have and that is why they have all been signed.

Call it "policy" if you want....but the fact is ALPA groups undercut each other all the time and this was the only time ALPA refused to sign the agreement...

Blame it on "policy" if you want....but it is wrong.....

The Mesa agreement undercut every other ALPA group out there...and ALPA signed it.....

Keep defending ALPA's failed "policies" and continue to wonder why people don't have faith in ALPA...

 

[DoinTime]

Call it "policy" if you want....but the fact is ALPA groups undercut each other all the time and this was the only time ALPA refused to sign the agreement...

Blame it on "policy" if you want....but it is wrong.....

The Mesa agreement undercut every other ALPA group out there...and ALPA signed it.....

Keep defending ALPA's failed "policies" and continue to wonder why people don't have faith in ALPA...

As crappy as the Mesa contract is, it, in and of itself, did not undercut anyone. It was not concessionary but that wasn't a very high mark. It did uphold their position on the bottom of the regional pilot pay totem pole so therefore there was no net change in regional pilot status by way of this contract.

I believe what you consider to be undercutting is someone else not achieving more than you have in their contract negotiations.

Did ASA pilots undercut Expressjet pilots in their last negotiations? By your definition, YES! In reality, NO. Your MEC negotiated the best deal they could in good faith and there were no concessions (the same could be said for the current MESA agreement). That is a contract the ALPA president cannot refuse to sign.

I'm not a big fan of many ALPA policies but the concessionary bargaining policy is one of the best examples of how an unwavering policy can work against ruthless management groups. Sometimes the results are bittersweet, but they are results none the less.

Joe, perhaps you would like to live in a world where scumbags like JO or Trenary are free to extract as much flesh out of their pilots as they like so long as they continue to pit one group against the other?

 

[Raoul Duke]

From your posts you really are showing how little you actually know about CCAIR. The contract that DW would not sign was rejected because of RJs going to CCAIR that Mesa pilots wanted (and which their scope clause did not entitle them to have at the time). In fact, ALPA sent a senior negotiator from national to supervise the negotiations and he signed the TA ratified by the pilots. When the Mesa pilots got wind, they went crying to Washtington and DW refused to sign. Anyone claiming differently is living a pipe dream

 

[FightingIrish]

From your posts you really are showing how little you actually know about CCAIR. The contract that DW would not sign was rejected because of RJs going to CCAIR that Mesa pilots wanted (and which their scope clause did not entitle them to have at the time). In fact, ALPA sent a senior negotiator from national to supervise the negotiations and he signed the TA ratified by the pilots. When the Mesa pilots got wind, they went crying to Washtington and DW refused to sign. Anyone claiming differently is living a pipe dream

I was at CCAir and this is the truth. The Mesa MEC Chairman was an ALPA EVP and we were sold out.

 

[Raoul Duke]

On or about April 14, 2002, Defendant’s representatives, KERNAN and

BRENNER, acting on behalf of Defendant, ALPA and all pilots in service to CC AIR, INC,

(hereinafter referred to as “Pilot Group”), and LEAKE met and agreed to present an

agreement to the Pilot Group for the purpose of a ratification vote.

16. On or about the period from April 22, 2002 through April 29, 2002, Plaintiff and the

Pilot Group voted on said agreement.

17. On or about April 29, 2002, Defendant, ALPA, informed Plaintiff and the Pilot

Group that the agreement overwhelmingly passed by approximately seventy two per cent (72%)

in favor and approximately twenty eight percent (28%) against.

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3​

18. On or about May 3, 2002, in the presence of KERNAN and attorney BRENNER,

LEAKE and acting chairman on behalf of the Pilot Group, BRIAN BILLUPS (hereinafter

referred to as “BILLUPS”) executed the above mentioned contract ratified by the Pilot Group

vote. (A copy of which is attached to this complaint and made a part hereof as Exhibit “A”).

19. Thereafter, upon information and belief, BRENNER and/or KERNAN retained

​

custody of an original executed contract known as Exhibit “A”, and indicated said agreement

​

would be presented to WOERTH for his execution.

20. ALPA’s Constitution and By-Laws, Article XVIII, Section 1, or other provisions

provide that ALPA does not implement employment agreements without the signature of its

president.

21. Upon information and belief, it is alleged the signature of WOERTH to the

agreement, know as Exhibit “A”, is a pro forma act, ministerial and a perfunctory task of

execution from WORETH as ALPA’s president, pursuant to its Constitution and By-Laws,

Article XVIII, Section 1.

22. On or about June 7, 2002, WOERTH indicated in a letter to LEAKE, a copy of

which is attached hereto as Exhibit “B” and made a part hereof, that he would not execute the

agreement marked as Exhibit “A” and further informed LEAKE that pending his signature upon

said agreement, CC AIR, INC. had no authority to implement same. That said act totally

Disenfranchises and circumvents the collective will of the Pilot Group.

23. As a result of WOERTH’s failure to execute said agreement, Exhibit “A”, Plaintiff

and others of the Pilot Group have been furloughed and continue to suffer serious hardship

directly resulting from LEAKE’S inability to present a business plan allowing for growth of the

Pilot Group.


These are not my words, these are the words of the CCAIR PILOTS

 

[WSurf]

ALPA = Politics!


Define Politics and you get......

social relations involving intrigue to gain authority or power; "office politics is often counterproductive"

Bingo, that sums up ALPA

 

[DoinTime]

From your posts you really are showing how little you actually know about CCAIR. The contract that DW would not sign was rejected because of RJs going to CCAIR that Mesa pilots wanted (and which their scope clause did not entitle them to have at the time). In fact, ALPA sent a senior negotiator from national to supervise the negotiations and he signed the TA ratified by the pilots. When the Mesa pilots got wind, they went crying to Washtington and DW refused to sign. Anyone claiming differently is living a pipe dream

So how do you explain the CCAir TA being in violation of concessionary bargaining policy? Are you saying that DW should have set aside ALPA policy to accommodate a mad man like Ornstein?

If I were the MESA leadership at the time I would have cried foul too. The CCAir pilots were trying to dig well below the bottom of the industry to save their jobs (at least temporarily) and get the RJs. The airline was not in dire straights it was not facing liquidation to its creditors. JO was putting the squeeze on those pilots simply because he could. Now ALPA has to be defended for putting up a fight?

DW did what was right at CCAir. Unfortunately, there was no way to stop CCAir round 2 (aka: Freedom Air) and Mesa was ultimately denied a contract that brought them up off of the bottom of the industry.

BTW: No where in any ALPA contract will you find it signed by an ALPA attorney or staffer. Regardless of who was at the bargaining table the TA did not meet ALPA policy. Had DW signed that agreement he would have likely been recalled by his peers.

 

[Raoul Duke]

I still think your facts are way off. CCAir's prior contract was negotiated when the airline was doing pro-rate flying for airways. There was nothing concessionary in the rates for the RJ (they were above Mesa and other RJ operators). At the end of the day ALPA chose one pilot group over another - that is the real fact, trying to push it off onto Mesa or JO (while entertaining and predictable) is just not what happened. If you believe that ALPA should make such decisions, dont hide behind the blame management banner, come out and say it.

 

[Raoul Duke]

If Colgan was an ALPA carrier would it be your position that DW or JP should not have signed their contract?

 

[J and E's Daddy]

I am ex CCAIR. In fact, if it wasn't for Mesa, I might still be there today if they were still around. What happened to CCAIR? The CCAIR pilots did what nobody else did. Showed a set of b*lls and stood up to management and that convicted felon, sorry excuse for a human being and dirtbag, Jonathan Ornstein. Ornstein looked and lied to the CCAIR pilots assuring they would not lose their jobs. He whipsawed the two groups, one group showed a pair of b*lls and JO had no choice to make an example of them. The other, just rolled over and submitted to him and got what? A pathetic second Collective Bargaining Agreement which was a joke and based on getting growth. This agreement has been violated how many times? How many grievances have been filed? How is morale there? How are the working conditions? It seems like they are always canceling vacations and junior manning. And RSVs getting a mere eight days off? And the other, 22-23 days a months, used and abused? For what? Growth that has ceased.
The CCAIR pilots did what nobody else did. Stood up to management. They were made an example and the rest of the groups all slinked away or were beaten into submission, took crappy concessionary agreements. Meanwhile The companies and Management reaped the rewards on the backs of the employees. And when employees were laughed at when they confronted management. Imagine what it would be like if everyone stood up to mgt. and refused to take paycuts and concessions. Sooner or later, people will realize enough is enough, when you can no longer support your families, while the Jonathan Ornsteins of the world are owning huge houses motorcycles and expensive cars and laughing at the employees toiling away, while he sits in his air conditioned office in PHX.

Just my thoughts.