ALPA and Alter-Egos

[braveheart]

RJ Defense Coalition
Ensuring One Level of Representation
www.rjdefense.com

reply to: [email protected]

DCI Changes and the Need for ALPA Reforms
June 15, 2005
​

While ALPA publicly claims to be opposed to the formation of alter-ego carriers, its mainline bargaining practices prove otherwise. ALPA hypocritically accuses management of pitting pilot against pilot and engaging in whipsaw tactics when it engages in the very same practices. Consequently, ALPA's pledges to protect the ASA and Comair pilots from the alter ego threat will remain hollow until it reforms its own conduct.

This special report examines why ALPA's mainline interests have sought to disperse small jet flying amongst as many carriers as possible, the history of ALPA's role in the creation of small jet alter ego carriers, and why ALPA reforms are necessary.

Link: http://www.rjdefense.com/2005/DCI_061505.pdf

 

[~~~^~~~]

Good post.... The sooner Pilots begin to understand this, the sooner we can restore this profession.

 

[surplus1]

Excellent paper and right on the money.

ALL of us, mainline and regional alike, are now suffering from policies that endanger our job security, created intentionally by the very labor union we pay to protect our interests.

Ironically, the parties responsible for this travesty and folly are all airline pilots of the "mainline" cadre and "elected" to represent our interests.

Their stewardship of the union has resulted in nothing more than a series of injurious salvos all fired, with success, at the very constituents they are supposed to represent.

Mainline line pilots suffer from increased outsourcing; regional pilots suffer from increased whipsaw. All of us suffer from reduced compensation part of which is sourced in these policies. If management had employed our union leaders to work on their behalf, they would all be eligible for bonuses.

The leadership of ALPA has done a near perfect job of working against the collective interests of the Association's members.

There is no purpose to spending millions to negotiate Collective Bargaining Agreements while the union itself is hard at work undermining those very agreements.

From this "leadership" we are NOT getting what we pay for. There is little consolation from watching Nero fiddle while Rome burns.

 

[General Lee]

The real problem here is lazy senior pilots. They don't want to start over at a new carrier. They enjoy their weekends off, their 4 weeks vacation. They don't want to be FOs again. They would rather try to get larger aircraft at their regional, rather than try to move on and start over. It is called extreme laziness. People have had to move up in this career until 9-11, when larger planes started to filter down to lower paid regionals. It is the truth. Trying to bring down larger planes and in reality bring down wages and benefits to keep your weekends off and vacation is selfish. Ever since Ford and Lawson turned Bandit (EMB-110) Captain in 1979, they SWORE they would NEVER ever again be an FO---NEVER. They couldn't handle being an MD88 FO (also they know they would probably never get through an interview). Sad but true.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[~~~^~~~]

General:

How is the real problem lazy pilots? Your MEC negotiated these contracts, ALPA National signed them and you ratified them.

You could have had all the airplanes & all the flying, but you negotiated them away.

The pilots of airlines your airline aquired tried to be included - you excluded them and their flying.

So again, tell me how this is the fault of lazy senior pilots?

~~~^~~~


- betting General will not answer....

 

[michael707767]

Fins, you and Surplus live in this dream world where having scope that does not allow outsourcing is as easy as asking for it. Outsourcing happens for a reason, its cheaper. To negotiate a contract with no outsourcing would mean you would have to give up somewhere else. Give up an amount at least equal to what the company would save through outsourcing. So the question is, what would you give up to have that contract, or to try to force Delta to merge DAL/ASA/CMR? What would it have cost us to get Delta to merge lists?

Now, do I personally think it would have been worth the cost, yes I do. But I realize there is a potentially huge cost to get an "inclusive" contract. Plus, unless you can get all pilot groups, ALPA and non ALPA to have "inclusive" contracts also, the economic pressure to allow some outsourcing would be huge. All it takes is one airline to save money by outsourcing, and the rest of us will either have to allow it, or take cuts elsewhere to make our airline competitive.

The cat is out of the bag. So the question now is what would you give up to get it back, to merge lists and have a contract with no codesharing at all? Tell me, I am dying to know, how would you stop it? Frankly, I don't think there is anything we could have given, or could give in the future, to get Delta to eliminate code sharing and have all flying inhouse.

Stop living in your little perfect dream world, deal with reality, and tell me how you think it could be fixed.

 

[GogglesPisano]

The real problem here is lazy senior pilots. They don't want to start over at a new carrier. They enjoy their weekends off, their 4 weeks vacation. They don't want to be FOs again. They would rather try to get larger aircraft at their regional, rather than try to move on and start over. It is called extreme laziness. People have had to move up in this career until 9-11, when larger planes started to filter down to lower paid regionals. It is the truth. Trying to bring down larger planes and in reality bring down wages and benefits to keep your weekends off and vacation is selfish. Ever since Ford and Lawson turned Bandit (EMB-110) Captain in 1979, they SWORE they would NEVER ever again be an FO---NEVER. They couldn't handle being an MD88 FO (also they know they would probably never get through an interview). Sad but true.


Bye Bye--General Lee

General, while I despise the RJDC and what it stands for -- I have to call you on this one. I know of plenty of very talented and experienced senior pilots with clean records and 4-year degrees who never had the good luck to make it to a major despite years of trying. Their problem was they didn't know a CP.

It ain't that simple.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Stop living in your little perfect dream world, deal with reality, and tell me how you think it could be fixed.

Sir:

Has ALPA filed a Single Carrier Petition? Has ALPA used any of the tools available to the union under US Labor Law to even try?

Do you see this reality as something that needs to be fixed? ALPA doesn't and that is the problem.

~~~^~~~

 

[Yank McCobb]

You want the General to answer your questions, yet in typical RJDC fashion, you do anything BUT answer the questions put to you.

Quit wasting people's time.

 

[General Lee]

General, while I despise the RJDC and what it stands for -- I have to call you on this one. I know of plenty of very talented and experienced senior pilots with clean records and 4-year degrees who never had the good luck to make it to a major despite years of trying. Their problem was they didn't know a CP.

It ain't that simple.

Easy now chief. I didn't say everyone had bad records. But, all of the current senior guys can now apply to CAL, and maybe get an interview. They are hiring 20 a week indefinitely, right? What is that? None of the senior guys are applying? Why is that? They are lazy and want to bring larger aircraft DOWN to the regionals instead of going UP and getting those benefits like the rest of us had to do in the past. That is the key here. I am not saying everyone who is senior has something to hide, but they do NOT WANT TO LOSE their vacation and left seat status. What I say is true. CAL is hiring, and no type rating is required. Why aren't FINS or Surplus1 applying to CAL? Are they afraid to lose out on first year pay or the left seat? What about the 4 weeks of vacation in Myrtle Beach each year? If you want larger airplanes, go to CAL--they have plenty and you don't have to start as an FE like I did. And, I didn't know the DL chief pilot when I got hired in '96..... I knew nobody at DL.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[~~~^~~~]

Huh? I did answer the question. What do you want? Want me to type the form and drive it up to Washington DC? Unfortunately ( or thankfully ) I do not represent ALPA. It is ALPA's duty to represent me.

But to help you out - here is every sentance he wrote with a question mark at the end - answered. For everyone else bored by repetition, continue to the next thread.

So the question is, what would you give up to have that contract, or to try to force Delta to merge DAL/ASA/CMR? It is not a matter of negotiation, it is a matter of law.

The contracts need not be changed to effect a merger. Then again they could be changed if that is what the pilots wanted. It is not a trade off. The ASA and Comair pilots could have continued under their agreements. A cost neutral merger could have been achieved in 2000.

What would it have cost us to get Delta to merge lists? Probably nothing, nothing about a "merger" ( staple ) would have required changes. But who knows what the MEC's would want to negotiate.

All it takes is one airline to save money by outsourcing, and the rest of us will either have to allow it, or take cuts elsewhere to make our airline competitive.

Not really. What is the difference between Delta's outsourcing and US Air's jets for jobs program with Mid Atlantic?

But when you create a bunch of alter ego airlines after a while all the outsourcing begins to compete with mainline and you see E-170's flown by non-ALPA carriers replacing 737-200's.

With your logic you would have to keep drawing the scope line right below the airplane you are flying now - so where is it going to stop, widebodies?

ALPA should not be using one group of pilots to work for lousy wages to supplement the higher wages at another airline. It is not the fair representation that the union owes all of its members.

The cat is out of the bag. So the question now is what would you give up to get it back, to merge lists and have a contract with no codesharing at all? Tell me, I am dying to know, how would you stop it? Frankly, I don't think there is anything we could have given, or could give in the future, to get Delta to eliminate code sharing and have all flying inhouse.

You are right - that is why you don't negotiate it - you take back what is yours under law.

Pilots do not buy airplanes.

Stop living in your little perfect dream world, deal with reality, and tell me how you think it could be fixed.

First, leadership from ALPA National. Then Single Carrier Petitions, multilateral scope and enforcement of current US labor law.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Why is that? They are lazy and want to bring larger aircraft DOWN to the regionals instead of going UP and getting those benefits like the rest of us had to do in the past. That is the key here.

Bye Bye--General Lee

So you think it is easy to fight a ten year war with your union to try to save the profession? You think what Dan Ford is doing is easy?

Do you think alter ego airlines are good for this profession?

And again - who negotiated, signed and ratified these contracts? Hint, it was not regional pilots - we are not allowed any representation and most of the pilots getting the flying are not in ALPA.

 

[General Lee]

So you think it is easy to fight a ten year war with your union to try to save the profession? You think what Dan Ford is doing is easy?

Do you think alter ego airlines are good for this profession?

Answer questions, don't be a coward.

A coward? Come on. I will answer them for you.

1. A ten year war with one side not seeing the truth. That is because most of the vocal people at ASA/Comair are the minority, or senior people. They have a vested interest in being as loud as possible and distorting the truth to get what they want, even if it is not good for the majority. Most of the younger/junior pilots WANT TO LEAVE EVENTUALLY AND MOVE UP. But, the senior minority uses rank and loud voices to tell the junior folks that larger aircraft are NEEDED at the regional. That is incorrect, and your minority KNOWS IT. Selfish to say the least, but many of those senior (not all) are undesireables. The others should take a hit (temporary hit) pay wise and seniority wise and go over to CAL or some other Major who is hiring.

2. Dan Ford is an idiot and wants something (larger aircraft) for nothing because he is afraid to interview or lose all of his vacation time or weekends off. Why would anyone rather stay at a smaller airline with less pay and benefits? There probably are some valid reasons, (family, time off etc) and if they have those reasons they should STAY THERE AND NOT COMPLAIN when the pay isn't as high or they fly 10 legs a day. You have your reasons, SO LIVE WITH THEM. Don't RUIN IT FOR EVERYONE ELSE. Dan Ford doesn't want to be my FO.

3. I don't think alterego airlines are good for the profession, except there are good examples of some successes. I think SONG was a good idea, it has done well and is used as a tool to fight Jetblue to some success. The key here is that ALPA fought to keep our pilots on that seniority list, and ALPA succeeded. ALPA actually does do some good. ALPA made this "alterego airline" SONG work for us----we all enjoy flying Song and Mainline. ALPA helped that happen.



Your senior pilots (most of them) have a clouded view of this mess, and want to selfishly keep their vacations and left seat status to add larger aircraft to the regional and away from the parent. Our pay scales aren't as far apart as they used to be on the 737 sized aircraft, yet you still want larger aircraft and you want to keep your weekends off etc. Your majority (the junior folks) should just rise up and overthrow the vocal minority, but most of them just came out of Empty Nipple and are still happy to paid to fly. Someday they will see that your minority led them down the WRONG PATH. The good pay and benefits of a Major will be sooo exclusive, that it will be almost impossible to ever get hired to fly a widebody to Europe or Hawaii. Instead, they will be stuck flying to Baton Rouge and Monroe more and more, and for less and less flying larger and larger planes---like the CR9. That thing looks like an MD80, but pays like a BE1900. Nice.


Now you answer me this: Are the senior guys lazy and do they not want to lose their vacation or left seat status? Why haven't they applied to CAL? Afraid of soemthing? Please answer Fins. Why did you erase the Coward part in your question? Play nice please.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[rgd]

To say that the real problem is lazy senior pilots is unfounded. To make a blanket statement like that shows a defensive and narrow minded view point that would come from someone that is dealing with larger issues. I would like to see the study that was scientifically conducted that came up with this "fact". You are merely expressing an opinion that makes sense to you from your veiw point. It is not a fact, and relaying as a fact is a gross misjustice to thousands of very hard working senior pilots. Not to mention that it is not an itelligent argument and tends to make the sender lose credibility. Are some senior pilots lazy? Yes. Would some like to bring down larger airplanes to their perspective regionals? Undoubtably. Do some want to be F.O's again? Probably not. Is that the only problem here? No. To deal in absolutes and opinons and peddle them as facts is the what individuals do who are unable or unwilling to reason at a higher level, or are looking for somewhere to place blame for their current situation.

BTW, I have my app in at CAL, SWA, JB, and Airtran. 37 years old, family of five, and still wanting to move up to the big planes, not bring them down to me. Not really senior, but able to hold captain and more than halfway up the seniorty list. Most people I know that are senior to me are trying to do the same thing I am, a few are not.

 

[~~~^~~~]

General:

You are delusional if you think Dan Ford is lazy, or stupid.

As far as who is harmed most by ALPA's alter ego agenda, you are wrong there too.

(1) The junior guys at any airline are effected by seniority changes more than those at the top. Doug Helms will be the #1 CRJ Captain at ASA, if we have 1 airplane, or 1,000. However the last guy on our seniority list hopes to get off reserve, hold a schedule, upgrade, etc.... Dan Ford is so senior that this does not effect him.

By the same token it probably does not effect you - but it does effect the guys on the bottom of your list and is about to really effect some US Air guys as Republic negotiates alter ego operation of E190's.

(2) Dan Ford was responsible for ALPA's "One Level of Safety" program which ALPA still promotes to this day. You probably were not around the E120 losses, but Dan did a lot of work on those and went toe to toe with some of Embraer's experts and prevailed. The current E120 POH was cleaned up as a result of his work. Not exactly the sort of missions typically accomplished by "idiots."

(3) You write a lot on these boards. Can you imagine publishing everything the RJDC does, while preparing for depositions and organizing tens of thousands of pages of documentation? The RJDC is a massive undertaking that works because of the effort of volunteers who believe it is the right thing to do.

You are simply going to have to find other words to call Dan Ford and his small group of patriots.

So again I ask you - who has negotiated, signed and ratified these contracts? Was it Dan Ford? Was it some lazy mainline pilots who wanted to enhance their pay and working conditions at the expense of others inthe profession?

I thought calling you a coward was rude, so I deleted it - but if it upsets you that I removed it, here you go - "you are a coward" - you tend to run from debates you can't win. I continue to hope that you will see the error of your ways and join us in trying to restore our profession.

And yes, my applications will go out next month. If hired, I will continue to fight alter ego replacements of brand flying and the RJDC is the only folks trying to achieve that worthy goal.

~~~^~~~

 

[michael707767]

Sir:

Has ALPA filed a Single Carrier Petition? Has ALPA used any of the tools available to the union under US Labor Law to even try?

I have asked about that. Evidently since ASA/CMR and Delta do not fly the same type of aircraft or even the same size aircraft, there is no way that a single carrier petition would be granted. And even if it were possible, do you think Delta would sit by and let it happen, or would they sell off ASA and CMR before the ink was dry on a single carrier petition?

 

[bigshooter]

Eh General
You can do better than that, I am a little dissapointed. Easy on the "nipple stuff" there are plenty of ex corporate, 135, and military guys at the "regionals".

Good posts fins!

 

[~~~^~~~]

I thought Delta was trying to sell off ASA and Comair....

and, a sale to undermine collective bargaining efforts is not a defense to a single carrier petition.

So, ALPA says the Company might not agree, so they don't even do so much as file a grievance!?! Yet, Comair operates the Delta shuttle and ALPA bypasses a grievance and goes straight to open Court!?!

Tell me that is "equal representation."

 

[michael707767]

So, ALPA says the Company might not agree, so they don't even do so much as file a grievance!?! Yet, Comair operates the Delta shuttle and ALPA bypasses a grievance and goes straight to open Court!?!

Tell me that is "equal representation."

What does that have to do with equal representation? The ASA and CMR pilots wanted a merged list(and from what I have been told, not all ASA and CMR pilots were in agreement with that).....the DAL pilots did not. What is ALPA supposed to do?No ones contract is violated by ASA/CMR/DAL being operated seperately. Let me ask you this....why did your own contract not require you to be merged in if you were acquired? If you thought it was so important, why did you not spend negotiating capital to get it in your contract?


Also, lets say we somehow got a single carrier petition granted. Would that mean we eliminated outsourcing? No, a single carrier between ASA/CMR/DAL would do nothing to stop outsourcing, since CHQ, Skywest and soon to be Mesa also do DAL codeshare flying. It still comes back to my original question, what would you be willing to give up in negotiations to achieve scope eliminating outsourcing?