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Allow me to set the record straight

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FrontierFan

Well-known member
Joined
May 3, 2004
Posts
106
Yes I know there is already a tread going but I did not feel like posting at the end of the sixth page or what ever it is up to.


Allow me to set the record straight:


Earning a College Degree doesn’t mean everything but it means a lot.


For those that think that a degree doesn’t mean much by drawing on these few and far between examples prove you never took/passed statistics. Nobody can say a degree doesn’t mean anything because Bill Gates or the CEO of JetBlue never finished their degrees. What about all the people who were not offered an interview for a position and the degree would have put him/her over the top of the other applicants.

I am sure there are more pilots adversely affected from not having degrees than the few who slipped through the cracks of the selection process.

Getting your degree is a whole lot more than "jumping through hoops". I personally had to put myself through two years of A&P School and than four more at a University. Working full time while trying to find time to study for six years was much harder than ANY flight training I have EVER been through.

Starting and completing a degree says a lot about a person. It says they have previous experience of fulfilling a goal that many choose not to even attempt by improving themselves. Education is never a waste.

And yes people with degrees are by and large smarter than people with out. ANY form of standardized test given to an average college graduate compared to the average high school grad will yield a stark contrast in results. Watching CNN and reading a Michael Moore book is not a replacement for a political science class. (And from my understanding Mr. Moore dropped out of the satellite campus of Michigan State at Flint). Reading the WSJ is not a replacement for Micro/Macro economics and the pilot selection committee knows this.

If having a degree really doesn’t mean anything than why does every application on planet earth ask if you have one? That is like saying that a potential employer could care less if you flew in the military because they have had to hire some who did not serve.

Yes degrees do mean something. Statistically an individual who does not complete at least a B.S. has a fraction of the earning power. Also the individual who makes it to the position of captain at a major or CEO are so few and far between it is statistically ridiculous.

A college educated pilot group has more validity than a high school only group. Why, because when xyz airline goes on strike and the mediation board, press, and public discover that these people did not even go to college that is the time when the xyz pilot group’s bargaining potential just traveled away from their favor and over to management’s.

And by the way saying that you can't become a medical doctor or attorney at your local FBO, Delta Connection Academy, or 90-day ATP program justifies my point about what a high school only educated pilot group deserves. We all know that some people go from zero to RJ in a very very short amount of time and they pass their SIC check just fine.

I don't want a high school only educated 90-day wonder doctor working on my kid.

Having a degree does not mean that you are a better pilot than so and so. However having a degree completes the picture that most pilot recruiters are looking for. Anyone can get their ratings from anywhere and just about anyone can complete a Type rating course without a hitch.

Reality dictates that if something was easy to obtain than everyone would have one this includes your ratings/types and your degrees.

This year there was a record enrollment in the University programs across America. The main reason stems from the fact that in today’s world a person with only a high school diploma isn't competitive for anything and has a terrible earning potential.

So for those that honestly don’t think a degree means anything jump off flightinfo.com immediately and call your senator to let them in on your secret because thus far the Military and every industry in the world have been unaware of your fact that a higher education does not mean anything.



F9Fan
 
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No to Nitpick But...

Hey Guy,

Its "Smarter" not "Smatter"
And "By" not "Bye"

Yes, I have a degree
No, I don't think it makes me "better"
If it helps me get a job so be it, if it doesn't...oh well...it was fun to go to college.

Other than that, I guess your post makes sense. I really don't know why this is an issue. You either get the job or you don't. It is obvious that having a degree most likely helps...but so does knowing someone on the "inside". I just don't get why this is such a big deal!

;)
l8r
 
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Woops.. typed that post pretty quick after reading a five page thread saying college doesn’t matter.
 
FrontierFan,

Allow ME to set the record straight...

And yes people with degrees are by and large smarter than people with out.

By judging your comments and grammar, I must assume YOU do not have a degree.


Anyone can get their ratings from anywhere and just about anyone can complete a Type rating course without a hitch.

Interesting that you degrade the validity of obtaining a pilot license.

Being smart and passing a test are two completely different things. ANYONE can attend a class, study for the test, and get a good grade. That is what college is about because, I did it, and am no "smarter" than before. I have a broader knowledge base but, by no means did it make me "smart". Grad school is what I feel made me smarter because it was more self driven and not "standardized test" driven.


Nobody can say a degree doesn’t mean anything because Bill Gates or the CEO of JetBlue never finished their degrees.

Your comment here WOULD be valid if Bill Gates and the CEO of JetBlue HAD a degree. You got it backwards friend.

I've grown tired reading your post. Trying to disseminate your words has left me ashamed and embarrassed that YOU might actually HAVE a degree; however, at least you are "smart".
 
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FrontierFan said:

And yes people with degrees are by and large smarter than people with out.


Agreed with most of your thoughts on this subject. But this statement is absolutley ludicrous. You must have missed the post about college educated athletes being interviewed, (no offense to them).
 
It doesn't matter if Bill Gates or the CEO of Jet Blue have college degrees because they took their own initiative and started their own companies. You certainly don't need a degree to do that. It's not the same as interviewing at an airline that values a college degree. If the people doing the hiring think it's valuable to have a college degree then you're better off having a college degree. Pretty simple. That being said, a college degree does not mean you are smarter than everyone else. You may be more educated but not necessarily smarter. I know plenty of smart people who decided to skip college, and I know plenty of college grads that should probably be working at McDonalds as a cook the rest of their lives because they're idiots. I'm just glad I have a degree because I know that it will never hurt me in the long run, and as a bonus I experienced the best four years of my life.
 
Their is no harm in education. Why not become sharper when you have the chance. O yeah what if you can't fly anymore? Then what? "Hello may I take your order?" sounds likely.


True a degree is not required, but how the heck could I look my future kids in the eye and tell them to go to college when I did not? Thats why I am working on my masters degree, not only for the kid thing but also to improve my mind and have a safety net if things go way wrong!
just my 2 cents
 
FrontierFan said:
Allow me to set the record straight: Earning a College Degree doesn’t mean everything but it means a lot.


We understand. You worked hard for your degree and feel degraded when people say you don't need one. While earning a degree may say many positive things about you, it does NOT make you a better, safer or more skilled pilot. Also, it does NOT make you a better, more reliable or more dedicated employee. That is the point some folks have made.

FrontierFan said:
What about all the people who were not offered an interview for a position and the degree would have put him/her over the top of the other applicants.

That's a valid point and the loss of the company doing the discriminating.

FrontierFan said:
I am sure there are more pilots adversely affected from not having degrees than the few who slipped through the cracks of the selection process.

Slipped through the cracks? Now you are sounding elitist and pompous. Someone who works his/her tail off, pays their dues building a flying career and finally gets hired into the airlines did not "slip through the cracks." They EARNED that job just as you worked hard and earned your degree.

FrontierFan said:
Getting your degree is a whole lot more than "jumping through hoops". I personally had to put myself through two years of A&P School and than four more at a University. Working full time while trying to find time to study for six years was much harder than ANY flight training I have EVER been through.

Sorry if I am reading you wrong but again, it sounds as if you are degrading those who did not go through college. You are insinuating that they did not work as hard as you did. Do you think those of us who were not fortunate enough to get a degree were handed our careers in a silver platter?

FrontierFan said:
And yes people with degrees are by and large smarter than people with out.

"Without" is one word, not two.

FrontierFan said:
That is like saying that a potential employer could care less if you flew in the military because they have had to hire some who did not serve.

The phrase is "couldn't care less." If you could care less that means you care some to begin with.

FrontierFan said:
A college educated pilot group has more validity than a high school only group.

This is such bunk, such nonsense I don't know where to begin. More "validity?" Laughable.


FrontierFan said:
Why, because when xyz airline goes on strike and the mediation board, press, and public discover that these people did not even go to college that is the time when the xyz pilot group’s bargaining potential just traveled away from their favor and over to management’s.

So, when the "press and public" find out that a group of pilots don't have degrees, that will somehow effect the negotiating power on the pilot's behalf? Can you give us an example of when this has EVER happened? Tell us when the press and the public have intervened in/or influenced contract negotiations causing a negative outcome for pilots lacking college degrees.

FrontierFan said:
And by the way saying that you can't become a medical doctor or attorney at your local FBO, Delta Connection Academy, or 90-day ATP program justifies my point about what a high school only educated pilot group deserves.

Deserves? This is unbelievable. Being a medical doctor required medical school. Being an attorney requires law school. Being a pilot requires flight training.

FrontierFan said:
We all know that some people go from zero to RJ in a very very short amount of time and they pass their SIC check just fine.
Yes, the SAME check that YOU had to pass with your degree in your back pocket. And we also know that some people go from zero to RJ after years of working hard, paying their dues, flying lousy airplanes in tough conditions. They deserve some respect from you too, just as you want respect for earning a degree.

FrontierFan said:
I don't want a high school only educated 90-day wonder doctor working on my kid.

Since there is no such thing as a "high school only educated 90-day wonder doctor," this statement is meaningless.

FrontierFan said:
Anyone can get their ratings from anywhere and just about anyone can complete a Type rating course without a hitch.

And anyone can go to any podunk college and get a degree "without a hitch." So what is your point?

FrontierFan said:
So for those that honestly don’t think a degree means anything


That should say "for those who honestly think a degree means nothing."

I don't know if anyone who has said that, but some here have argued a degree is just not necessary to be a good pilot regardless of whether or not an airline or other employer decides that it is a requirement for them.


 
I just completed a pre hire screening and job application process at a very well known regional carrier. At no point was I even asked if I had a college degree nor did anyone seem to care. I didn't finish college because I took a job flying Citations at 19 years old...and no, I never payed for any of the jet training. I don't regret my decision at all.
 
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mmmdonut said:
Thank you Bill Brasky
I loved that skit on SNL! :)

But anywhoo...regardless of what you guys think a college degree is good for, I'm pursing it for one reason and one reason only, and that's in the event I get whacked by someone backed by deep pockets. For instance the power company that leaves voltage out (check the news...walking your dog can get you killed!), a reckless Democrat legislator driving his/her car drunk, a semi-truck driver that crosses the centerline, a malpracticing doctor, badly perfomed maintainance on an aircraft, a day trader gone insane, well armed cops serving a warrant on the wrong house, a senator that has man eating Dobermans,...you get the picture.

I figure when it comes time to litigate, the jury won't know if I had a snowball's chance in hell of ever making it to the big guys, but they will know I had the potential, the means and the opportunity. So when my wife goes for the runaway jury money, she'll get what I could've made...not some interpolation or extrapolation of what I do make.

An education is a valuble ting, don't let it go to waste!
 
Bill Gates and the CEO of JetBlue are used as examples by people who chose not to go to college to justify their idea that a degree does not matter.

The fact of the matter is that while a very small few are successful in life without a degree by and large a college degree improves a person’s earning potential and chances of success as dictated by history of planet earth, the business world, and the military.

I am proud of all of my ratings as I am sure others are proud of theirs. I do not however believe that the 90 day program that ATP and other similar programs offer is as valuable as a four year degree.

Earning a degree also has the potential of bettering the pilot group by having more knowledge on hand to offer with ideals of improvement and validating better wages due impart to having a better educated pilot group.

Again….if I am wrong about a degree meaning more than nothing at all than it is strange that you need a degree to be an officer in any military branch (beside a battle field commissions which are rare at best).

If more people came to a pilot group with higher educations the group would be stronger and be able leverage for more deserving wages and benefits. Instead the fact of the matter is that the regional can and loves to hire someone who just came from one of these academies and they will with all likelihood pass their SIC check. Meanwhile the pilot group gets that much weaker while the 90 day wonder is happy to fly jets because he just started flying last year.

I just came from a regional and a couple of years ago in new hire there was a guy who just came from Flight Safety in Florida. Every hour he ever flew was in the state of Florida and every hour he was either receiving or giving instruction under the Flight Safety umbrella. He did not even know what a J-3 Cub or P-51 Mustang was. Now do you need to know about every airplane ever flown to deserve a regional job? No,…but **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED** he never heard of a Cub! I had one guy ask me why anyone would care about anything that Comair Training Academy or our regional didn’t fly. After a while of flying with these uneducated 90 day wonders you start to know that your pilot group will never ever be strong enough for better wages. Not as long as an education is not required and anyone can attend an academy, get hired by a regional, fly jets, and be happy to do it for poverty wages. Why do you think these guys are getting hired with lots of other high time folks availible.

All I am doing is pointing out the obvious. There is a reason why every professional flying application asks about your educational background just as it inquires into your flying and military experience.

Just calling a spade a spade.
 
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Do you believe that there aren't kids coming out of ERAU or other aviation colleges with the same mentality that these DCI Academy or FSI kids have? Trust me, there are. I've had the misfortune of meeting a few. A person's desire to learn and mold into a knowledgeable, skilled aviator has nothing to do with a college education. Stereotyping an individual as being more intelligent, skilled, or competent simply because they spent 4 years partying at ERAU is rather absurd. There will be bad eggs in any group, no matter what their background or education.
 
I absolutely agree. I am not going to say that there were not some real tools coming out of Purdue. My whole argument is a blast against the stereotype that degrees are worthless in this industry. Whether some one is interested in self improvement, increase their earning potential, or to just add to their pilot group’ average educational level finishing a degree is never a waste.

I never said that a degree is better than experience. I said that a more educated pilot is better than one who is not. I really can't believe that some would argue with this truth.

I also know that things come up during those years. On many occations I was offered a King Air or Turbo Commander trip on the same day I would have an exam. That is why I said that finishing my degree was much harder than any flight training I have been through. I am not insulting my ratings just calling a spade a spade.
 
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FrontierFan said:
I never said that a degree is better than experience. I said that a more educated pilot is better than one who is not.
This, my friend, is a stereotype in itself. You are putting all non college educated pilots into a "lower group" than those who have degrees. I'm a firm believer that stereotyping is wrong...in any shape or form. There are intelligent pilots, there are not so intelligent pilots. Did all of the intelligent pilots become so by going to college? Absolutely not. If you believe this, tell it to some of the many SWA Captains on this board that I have had the opportunity to chat with that have no college education. Do you feel that you are smarter or a better pilot than they are? If so..why aren't you in the left seat of the 737?
 
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OK….Lets try this again. You might want to re-read the post.



You see when one pursues an education by going to college they are not becoming more smartificated, they are not becoming more integicated, actually they are becoming more EDUCATED. That is why it is called higher education. It does not mean that someone becomes smarter or intelligent who chooses to finish a degree. It does mean that the person who chose to finish their degree is more Educated (by definition). I am sorry if this Webster’ definition is offensive to you because if you chose to pursue a BS compared to someone with a Masters, than the person with an MBA is in-fact more educated than you.



MmmmmKaaaayyyyy
 
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Irrelevant. Bottom line, " a more educated pilot is better than one who is not" simply isn't true. That is MY point. YOU said it yourself.
 

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