All Regional Airline Pilots cost Jobs

[BE90CPT]

I have read over and over again about flying being taken by this company or that company. The simple truth is that ALL regional flying comes at the cost of Major Airlines pilots.

Regional flying is done by major airlines giving that flying for several reasons, cities that cannot fill or support a major airline aircraft, perhaps the city is a start-up city and Regionals are used to test the water, or perhaps the airport itself cannot support a major airline aircraft. So, the major airline will GIVE this flying to a regional. Many airlines have started their own regional airlines as well as having gone to outside sources which can specialize their flying in this area.

MY POINT IS, WHETHER YOU FLY FOR COMMAIR, MESA, ACA, CHQ, ALG, ETC... ANY AND ALL FLYING YOU ARE DOING COMES AT A COST TO A MAJOR AIRLINE PILOT. So why you are congradulating yourselves on how great you are, keep those facts in your mind. Send a thank you note to a furloughed major airline pilot thanking THEM for your job.

Nobody in a regional airline is innocent, we have simply forgotten this simple fact.

If thse facts were not so, your airline would be independetly flying as themselves and for themselves.

Who does this Regional airline flying really doesn't matter. As long as there is so much of it being flown, major airline pilots will be out of work.

 

[T-REX]

Im speechless...I guess the real problem is Delta won't hire me with just C-172 time then.

 

[Palerider957]

It's suddenly so clear to me....I'M the problem! Yeah, when was in a beat up Brasilia hauling a handful of pax from ATL to MCN I was putting the stake in the heart of DAL. Thanks for making is all so clear.

What a flamebaiting tool.

 

[OldManPilot]

It's suddenly so clear to me....I'M the problem! Yeah, when was in a beat up Brasilia hauling a handful of pax from ATL to MCN I was putting the stake in the heart of DAL. Thanks for making is all so clear.

What a flamebaiting tool.

Ok, I wasn't going to bite, but this quote forced me too.

After reading BE90's post then this I must ask.

At what point of Regional Airline flying is it ok to fly? In other words, how many routes can a mainline give to a Regional Airline before it actualy does cost Mainline jobs? Would that be any airport with runways longer than 6000ft. (just a reference number)

Palefider, was it because there was only a handful of passengers that made it ok? Perhaps because it was only from ATL to MCN.

I don't think Regional flying is wrong, but this thread I think was just to remind us that there is a cost involved in Regional airline flying.

Feel free to flame my opinion.

 

[Palerider957]

This is a thread custom made for Fins, Surplus, and General Lee. I'll let them do the battle, except to say that without regionals, the majors would be in woarse shape then they are in now----that's why the majors were so desperate to buy/control the regionals.

Anyway, it's all irrelavant--regionals/nationals aren't going anywhere.

 

[Slave2theGrind]

I would love to see AA mainline fly the DFW-Tyler TX route

 

[Caveman]

BE90CPT,

Following your idiotic and asinine reasoning the major airline pilots are the real problem because they are the ones that 'gave' us the flying in the first place. If they had just kept it to themselves we wouldn't have a problem, right?

BTW, which major is it that flies the King Air?

Yeah, I know this was flame bait but sometimes I can't help myself.

 

[Stifler's Mom]

I can only imagine how many smaller communities would have absolutely no service whatsoever without "regionals".

Smaller A/C = More Frequency = More Choices for Pax

 

[fly4ever]

BE90CPT,

Before you put all the blame on the "regional" pilots, why don't you start with the mainline companies. They designed this system many years ago not the "regional" pilots.

What does contribute to the problems with loss of mainline jobs is when we have pilots who will:

1. accept a job that doesn't pay anything until after the checkride or IOE

2. buy their seat with an "airline"

3. accept concessions on a contract for no legitimate reason

There are many furloughed mainline pilots that did everything listed above and they made a decision to go to a mainline airline when the job was offered. They got caught by circumstances that no one could have foreseen. The fact that the mainline managements are doing everything in their power to re-align the contracts at this time was predictable. Read Flying the Line I & II for the info on the playbook that they use. The only thing that can be done is to tough it out and when the companies get tired of trying to beat us down they'll go back to trying to beat each other and the growth will start again.

They only way they will get frustrated to the point of changing their focus is if we hold the line and refuse to lower the bar but it will take every pilot's willingness to stand up to these people to do it. There in lies the problem - pilots are not patient enough to get what they deserve. Many feel that at age 22 or 23 if they don't get their foot in the door with the lowest bidder they won't have a chance for the "dream" job. People, when you ACCEPT the "bottom of the barrel" - EXPECT to get paid the "bottom of the barrel" wages.

 

[tacojet]

Actually at my company we "saved" mainline guys from hitting the streets. So maybe we should be getting "thank you" notes from the CAL guys here? Most of the "regionals" are the only reason most of the big carriers didn't declare bankruptcy too.

Flame bait is so much fun!!

 

[jarhead]

You just don't get it!

It is the solemn duty of any and all people with any interest in aviation, to protect the jobs of pilots working at the major airlines. All of you who are employed in flying for any entity less than that of a major carrier, should immediately resign, and find another line of work. I don't care if it's at Wal-Mart or McDonalds, you have no right to work in any segment of aviation other than that of a "Major" airline. Major airline pilots have a God given right to their employment; the rest of you do not! How selfish of all of you to put your own career interests ahead of the interests of a pilot at a "major" airline.

 

[ASH]

Hey johnny we got that 777 ready for our daily Beckly WV to Blufield WV run?
What are you talking about....plenty of runway.

 

[phantom122]

The simple truth is that ALL regional flying comes at the cost of Major Airlines pilots.

You're a tool. You must be a real treat to fly with. There really is no such thing as "regional" carrier anymore, as most of these companies operate aircraft that can fly 1,000 miles or more. I guess you must have gone directly from flight school into a "major" huh? It's people like you who give this profession a reputation for arrogance.

 

[belchfire]

I would love to be getting major airline
pay to fly my junkstream to all the EAS
places that your widebody wont go...
come on! Put me on your senority list!
or better yet, I'd like to see you do 8
legs, hand flown in hard wx for $29/hr.

The reason regionals got started was
that it was impossible for majors to make
money flying even a DC-9 into some of
these podunk places after deregulation,
but management wanted to get those
pax to a hub where they could put them
on a "real" airplane!!! I do grant that
the advent of the RJ changed the mix
some, but by and large, regionals are
in place to "feed" hubs...the origional
intent. The current situation has changed
that somewhat, but why? Because there
are fewer people flying at lower fares that
just won't support $200k/yr crewmembers
and their aluminum giants...even so, you
can't run a a 757 into marion, il or any
other of the frigging pits I fly to and make
money! We exist to Feed Mainline! Why
do you think that Eagle is so pissed at
American Connection? Cause they think
they are the only ones that are supposed
to feed AA...the fact that they never flew
to STL escapes them...they say we are
"stealing" their flying...after fighting for
years to get rid of all of those jetscreams!

If the major airlines didn't exist, neither
would we! We would not have jobs, never
would have if it were not for the major lines
seeking to get pax from smaller cities!

I would advise you to check on how many
pilots are furloughed from the well run
airlines like Southwest, AirTran and Jet Blue.
They are profitable and growing. Perhaps
the other airlines are disfunctional...
they appear to be when compared to the
success stories! Perhaps, oh wise one, you
will share with us all your knowedge of how
it would be profitable for any mainline to
fly into owensboro, Ky? Please? Or maybe
the people in Tri Cities should have to drive
5 hours to a BIG airport where they can get
on a BIG airplane and go to some other BIG
airport. Tell ya what...they probably wouldn't
go at all, and that would hurt the economies
of all cities involved and your Major airline!

The last time I checked, regionals existed B-4
the current crises, when even US didn't have
anyone on furlough.

Sorry guys, I just fell victim to another inane
flamebait!!!

 

[sleepy]

I guess we could return all flying that is presently done by so- called regional airlines to mainline. But then probably 50% of the smaller cities that are currently served by RJ's and props would no longer have any airline service. The mainline would lose all of it's hub feed. All airlines that us the hub and spoke system would be out of business. Great idea.

Hear is an idea for you. Why not eliminate all corporate aircraft. They are after all stealing pax from airlines (an thus taking mainline pilot jobs). Make those executives fly on the airlines.

As fine a piece of flame bait crap as I have ever seen.

 

[WrightAvia]

I suppose a complete ban on Part 135 and 91 flying will be next, as well as banning the Fractionals...maybe even pass a law to prevent people from flying themselves.

 

[WhiteCloud]

A fine a piece of flame bait crap as I have ever seen.

It was flame bait and here's some more. Major airline pilots have no one to blame for the existence of Regional airlines except themselves. Do they take the stand that ALL flying for Delta, UAL or whoever will be done by their airline or their seniority list? Nope. Are they willing to strike until that happens? Nope. That's why the regionals exist.

 

[DoinTime]

Regional flying is done by major airlines giving that flying for several reasons, cities that cannot fill or support a major airline aircraft, perhaps the city is a start-up city and Regionals are used to test the water, or perhaps the airport itself cannot support a major airline aircraft. So, the major airline will GIVE this flying to a regional. Many airlines have started their own regional airlines as well as having gone to outside sources which can specialize their flying in this area.

Major airline pilots have 'sold' their regional flying for negotiating leverage in THEIR working agreements. Frankly, I'm a little PISSED that you chose to sell my future as an airline pilot to pad your extravagant lifestyle. Contracting out mainline brand turbojet service should have been a nonstarter in any working agreement talks but all you saw was dollar $ign$.

Regional airlines, and their pilots, have little to no control over anything. We only do what is allowed by mainline and their various work groups. If mainline pilots have a problem with regional flying I suggest you take it up with your MEC as they are the ones that are the cause of our existence.

 

[jarhead]

DoinTime

Just to correct an erroneous impression you may have. The starter of this "flame" post is NOT a mainline pilot. BE90CPT has not much in his profile, but he does state he is 29 years of age. Hardly enough experience in the business to evoke a lot of confidence in his skewed view.

 

[greyhound]

Don't worry BE90CPT....

Give it a few more years when RJ captains make more money. Then the majors (and regionals) will realize that the longer people stay at the regionals, the more you have to pay them. All of a sudden the regionals will no longer be a “cheaper” alternative since crews will get senior and earn more money.
Also, as travelers slowly return to the airlines, I think we may see a 737 or an Md-80 return to where three RJ’s used to operate. (I hope)
BTW, It is very wrong to blame it on the pilots of the regionals.

 

[JohnDoe]

Geezzz....... yet another mudslinging mainline vs regional thread.

I know I'm gonna sound like a broken record here.......but,

Why don't you all use the time to write your senators about this cabotage issue that is up for vote soon in the Senate. If it passes, I don't care what airline you fly for, it could end up screwing us ALL in the years to come.

If people in this forum used half the time they spent slinging crap, every senator out there would be bombarded with e-mails fighting this by now...........

 

[GogglesPisano]

Some of you can't recognize blatanat flamebait when you see it. BE90CPT is sitting in front of his PC with a jar a vaseline getting off on all of this.

 

[Networ-King]

Well..... We all know this was flame bait from the get go, but we still continue to feed this thread.....

I guess everyone has an opinion so heres my .01 1/2 cents.....

JMHO....... but....


SO FAR YOU GUYS ARE ALL WRONG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Its not any Major airlines fault and its not any Regional airlines fault.......

ITS ALPA'S FAULT........

For not taking this whole freaking whipsawing thing and getting rid of it in the first place. Why is it that ALPA dropped the d a m n ball and said no to merging the lists of the WO and the majors. Why is it that the majority of the airlines in the US are ALPA and yet there is so many different payscales for the same airplane with the same UNION? Does the ELECTRICIANS union have different hourly rates for putting in the same equipment? ALPA should have gotten off their high and mighty A$$E$ and taken care of this way back when. Instead look what they have produced......

your a regional pilot...... no im not....yes you are....no im not..... jesus..... just listen to us all fighting amongst ourselves like a bunch of little school kids.

I think ALPA needs to grow a pair and have a MALPA and a RALPA

Major Airline Pilot Ass. and Regional Airline Pilot Ass....

Regionals being limited to 70 seater for ALL OUR futures and careers and anything over that would be Majors.

You gotta have a regional alpa, since all regionals are not going to be WO'd.

Then you have to settle an industry wide paysacle for the 19 seater all the way up to the 550 seater. This would benefit all the alpa carriers and management wouldn't grow "contract" regionals. If they want a 50 seater for a certain route, well fine then..... put comair or ASA or AWAC or Mesaba or ALG or PSA on there because they cost the same as TSA or SKW or MESA. CHQ....teamsters???? dunno???? You guys getting my drift? Don't have all the kinks worked out yet, but heck this make alot more sense then whats happening right now.

Now don't beat me up too bad here..... JMHO K?

 

[General Lee]

Well, more RJs and less mainline aircraft would mean less jobs for Mainline pilots, but that is managments doing. They like the lower cost structure of the regionals (which is still falling at this time), and would rather have a smaller mainline. That is where ALPA is the only thing saving us at the time. Some of their practices are interesting at times, but they are the only ones to protect us. Yes, they should have not made such a dividing line in the past with the RJs---and they should have integrated them into the mainline fleets---which would have created more jobs at the mainline level. Now they have to deal with that--and have to decide if some newer RJs can be negotiated for in the next mainline contracts. I don't think limiting aircraft to runway length is a great idea either----then Orange County, California (5700 ft) would have only RJs or Brasilias......


Hey, Networ-King---I like that avitar.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[BE90CPT]

Well, more RJs and less mainline aircraft would mean less jobs for Mainline pilots, but that is managments doing. They like the lower cost structure of the regionals (which is still falling at this time), and would rather have a smaller mainline. That is where ALPA is the only thing saving us at the time. Some of their practices are interesting at times, but they are the only ones to protect us. Yes, they should have not made such a dividing line in the past with the RJs---and they should have integrated them into the mainline fleets---which would have created more jobs at the mainline level. Now they have to deal with that--and have to decide if some newer RJs can be negotiated for in the next mainline contracts. I don't think limiting aircraft to runway length is a great idea either----then Orange County, California (5700 ft) would have only RJs or Brasilias......


Hey, Networ-King---I like that avitar.

Bye Bye--General Lee

Finally someone that understands what I was trying to say.

I am not blaming fellow pilots for what is happening. However Mainline unions could have had a little forsight and included the idea of RJ jets in contract. As said, it would have created more jobs.

Thanks General Lee for reading into what I was saying!

 

[belchfire]

BE 90

Why didn't you just say that in the
first place instead of blaming pilots
for stealing other pilots jobs?

The bottom line is, no majors, no
regionals (we have to see how that
works in the future). When more than
one regional tries to get out from under
the codeshare and flying on their own,
going mano-a-mano with the traditional
"major" lines (and beating them) you
can fuss about costing mainline jobs.
It's called the free market at that point,
and SWA, ATA, AirTran and Jet Blue are
doing it right now. Are you mad at them
for stealing jobs from Big D, AA and NW?
Cause they are. And again, it's the free
market...and I would go to work for any of
those four tomorrow.

 

[MiniMeGotWings]

General Lee is right again

ALPA dropped the ball years ago by not insisting that all jet flying go to mainline carriers. more planes=more jobs. it would have negated the need for most of the scope language that currently prohibits the growth of regional partners. it would have done away with the need for flow through. heck it might have even gone a long way towards acheiving world peace. mesa could no longer plunder smaller, weaker companies. smaller cities would still have service, and mgt. couldn't whipsaw pilot groups with threats of moving their flying to another certificate. the only problem now is the damage has been done. regionals have grown at the expense of shrinking seniority lists at majors. if we could only turn back the clock...

 

[Publishers]

AH

AH! The problem with this thinking is that it assumes that the market stayed the same all the time. It also assumes that if these jobs were part of a "major" carrier that it would carry wages and benefits of a major carrier.

I would suggest that this may not be the case at all. In fact, it may not have let the regionals develop like they have. To serve this feed there may have been even less magor airline flying and hence less quality jobs.

 

[DoinTime]

Both of these quotes come from the same man's mouth only 5.5 hours apart:

11-05-2003 13:00

MY POINT IS, WHETHER YOU FLY FOR COMMAIR, MESA, ACA, CHQ, ALG, ETC... ANY AND ALL FLYING YOU ARE DOING COMES AT A COST TO A MAJOR AIRLINE PILOT. So why you are congradulating yourselves on how great you are, keep those facts in your mind. Send a thank you note to a furloughed major airline pilot thanking THEM for your job.

11-05-2003 18:33

I am not blaming fellow pilots for what is happening. However Mainline unions could have had a little forsight and included the idea of RJ jets in contract. As said, it would have created more jobs.

Thanks BE90CPT on showing us how to talk out of both sides of your mouth. You should be in airline management.

ITS ALPA'S FAULT........

I want everyone to stop and think for a second on who ALPA is. Better yet, who ALPA was 10 years ago when these decisions that we live with today were being made.

 

[dogg]

Hey as long as were on another round and round regional vs major deal, I have a question. Does anyone have an idea at the big regionals that are WO, how many pax never see a mainline A/C. Trying to figure out the whole profit vs loss picture and am wondering how many seats are a subsidy to put pax on a mainline A/C and how many pax come and go strictly on the WO A/C............