All Airline Pilots MUST READ

[F18-FDX]

Guys & Gals,

I felt compelled to write this post due to the results of last week's elections. For those of you unfamiliar with the Senate's proposed "Airline Labor Dispute Resolution Act", S. 1327, you need to be. This bill could have a DEVASTATING affect on our careers, earnings and our families. If you're not familiar with it, this bill is an attempt to circumvent the Railway Labor Act. The legislation would impose “last offer” baseball style binding arbitration on contract negotiations in the airline industry, effectively destroying airline labor’s ability to negotiate a fair contract. It would allow an arbitrator to pick one side's proposal (i.e. management's) over the other's and make it stick. It takes away airline labor's right to vote on our contracts and even denies our right to strike! This is a Republican bill and has been pushed by all major airline CEOs (gee, I wonder why). These guys have massive political lobbying clout and are buying votes. Obviously with the results of last week's elections, it has a REALISTIC CHANCE of passing.

My point, you ask? If you have not already done so, EVERY pilot needs to CONTACT YOUR SENATORS IMMEDIATELY! It is extremely EASY. If you're not an ALPA member, go to www.congress.org, put in your zip code at the top of the page, then select "write all your elected officials with one click." If you are an ALPA member, log in to the website and click on the "Airline Labor Dispute Resolution Act" icon in the middle of the page, then click on "ACTION ALERT." Type in your zip code and this allows you to shotgun out e-mails to your senators in one easy step, there's even a prepared e-mail if you elect to use it. Either of these take less than 5 minutes, you don't have to write an essay, just urge your senators to oppose S. 1327, the Airline Labor Dispute Resolution Act. Let them know that it is extremely important to you and your family, and that their decision will affect your next vote for, or against them. I have written several times and will continue to do so because my Republican Senators keep writing me back with their party line of how good this bill is.

Hopefully I won't offend anyone since this isn't "interview" or "hiring" related, however I feel very strongly that this issue is TOO IMPORTANT to our futures to not take the few minutes required to let your voice be heard.

 

[Gumbydammit]

While I encourage anyone who feels strongly on this to call their reps/senators, I think this may be a foregone conclusion with the republicans now in charge...you're right though...this will hit all airline pilots' wallets.

 

[F18-FDX]

It could be a foregone conclusion, and if so, things will drastically change for all of us. I've never been one to go down without a fight, however, and I sure as h_ll won't go without one on this issue. I agree that we feel almost insignificant when trying to affect change upstream, but if we ALL work together we have a chance. In fact we have virtually no chance if we don't all get involved. It affects all of us way too much, and if it does pass, at least I'll be able to look myself in the mirror, knowing that I didn't sit on the sidelines and do nothing, but that I made the effort the only way I could to try to positively impact my future.

 

[LiveFreeorDie]

Flame Away

I for one think CEO's get paid more than they add value to a company. I also agree they have too much political clout. And I am no fan of Lorenzo or his ilk. BUT...

I am only luke warm to the unions. Have you seen the work rules at American Airlines? I couldn't believe how little you could work and still get paid ridiculous amounts of money. In otherwords it allowed some pilots to act as if they were ceo's -- getting huge compensation without increasing the value of the service to their customers.

I feel that companies don't owe us jobs. And the market should decide wages and benefits. Unions interfere with that. It is one reason the airlines were hurting prior to 9/11. Unions and the gov't are proping up inefficient business models as we speak. If you want to be a pilot, start your own business and go buy a plane. I for one am glad they are revamping a law written for a different era. I think it will help this industry.

And if the CEO's want to pay like crap and work you to death -- quit! No one owes you a flying job for a 6 figure income. If enough people quit then wages and benefits will rise. It's basic economics.

I know you don't agree, so flame away. It is just my honest opinion. And I am not begrudging yours, just have a different view. Good luck to you and yours.

 

[UGApilotDAWG]

There are always three sides to every story... yours, mine, and the truth which is usually somewhere in between. As a military transition guy - I have almost no direct clue about the politics involved and how they affect every aspect of the transportation business...but I am trying to learn as much and as fast as possible. Although y'all disagree... I am learing ... so thanks for your honest opinions and keep 'em coming!

Les

 

[F18-FDX]

LiveFree,

It's a free country and everyone is entitled to his or her opinion, I'll be the last to flame on someone for it. I agree that the Railway Labor Act was written for a different era, and that it should be revamped, but the new legislation must be a FAIR and REASONABLE alternative. The Airline Labor Dispute Resolution Act however, is far from it. I could support a re-written bill that conserves the tenets of a fair and just negotiation, the basic democratic right of a labor group to vote on a proposed contract as well as the right to strike as a last resort. This bill however, with its "binding arbitration" language, can force an unfair contract on labor with no right for appeal or further discussion. In my mind, it is merely a tool which allows the CEO, if he/she so chooses, to keep profits in his/her pocket rather than to equitably share the wealth with the employees.

 

[AlbieF15]

Live free....

The problem with your argument is once you join a major, you can't really "take all your marbles and go home". Your seniority system locks you into to one carrier for the duration, unless you are willing to suffer huge pay cuts.

If you work for Boeing, and decide to leave, Lockeed or Northrop may hire you. Odds are your salary will be close to what you had at your previous company. A buddy of mine just left a medical practice in Lynchburg Va to move to Mobile AL...and even got a pay raise in the process. Sales, medicine, professional....all those jobs allow mobility between companies. Now...supposed you are a United FO just furloughed. Do you really want to start over at UPS, or do you wait it out 3 years and hope thinks recover? Every time you start over you take a huge financial penalty.

Unfortunately, in our job, we are "stuck" with our company for a while. Ask the US Air guys about starting over at FedEx, or Easter and Braniff guys about starting over. Sometimes change is enevitable, but I do think the only way we have reasonable pay and retirement benefits as airline pilots is through collective bargaining. Some of the benefits may or may not be economically sound--I'll save that for the local MECs and management to fight over. However, even a guy at a non-union carrier like JetBlue or a unionized low cost carrier like SWA doesn't relish the idea of starting over at another company. So...the only way to protect ALL of us....even guys at the low cost places...is to make sure that we can collectively bargain. JetBlue is non-union, but the individual pilot contract is built with many of the same rules and benefits that were pioneered by previous contracts at union carriers.

As for what a pilot is "worth"...tough question. In any case, when someone asks me about working "half the month" as an airline pilot, I ask how many nights they would be willing to spend away from home and family. Maybe I'm whipped, but I do get tired of being away from home on a weeklong pairing. Add in the additional responsibilities at home of juggling an Air National Guard job and the associated responsibilities and committments, and I have to say I'm grateful for my job, but I certainly don't feel tremendously overpaid at the moment. We all know OF the high 6 figure captains out there, but at least right now most of my associates in my age group don't come anywhere close to those numbers, even with the part time jobs on the side. My buddies furloughed from AA, UAL, and DAL are likewise busting their humps at the moment, living hand to mouth on extra MPAs and part time jobs. When and if they get back to work at their contract rates, I doubt any of them will be talking about being overpaid either. Part of those high wages at the senior levels is compensation to reward previous hardships and future risks to income down the road (loss of medical, company bankruptcy, etc).

 

[mach none]

It is interesting that airline pilots tend to vote conservative and belong to unions. The only problem, Republicans tend to side against unions and general labor in favor of big corporations and their interests. ie. Pay us less and give us less job security. It is important to remember that the majors set the standards for everyone else.

I for one have already voiced my displeasure with this legislation and hope that everyone else does the same.

 

[Caveman]

I will urge my elected representatives to not support this legislation but I'm thrilled that conservatives have regained control of the congress. I'm not a one issue voter (except maybe 2nd Ammendment issues) and overall the Republican party more closely reflects my beliefs and ideology. Pure Libertarian would be better, but I agree with the GOP way more than I do the Dems.

 

[2000flyer]

Just An Opinion

I tend to agree with LiveFreeOrDie. At one point in American history, unions were created to stop companies from exploiting their workers. They set livable rules such as how many hours you could ask an employee to work; made pay adjustments that were livable; gave the employee a method to file a grievance against their employer. During that day and age, this was a great tool towards the lives of those workers. However, today, we (on the outside) see unions in a less favorable light. While they still provide work rules to the number of hours you work, they also build it so you can work less and earn more. While this seems attractive to most if not all of us, look at the cost employers incur. At many airlines, you bid, trip trade, toss in a vacation and you can have 3-weeks off and get paid your entire line. So, you've contributed nothing to the company in three weeks but their paying you for not working? I know this as I have a relative at a US major. He often tells me how he can bid a five day line - vacation - and a five day line, however, because his vacation "touches" both ends of his lines, the company, following the union contract, gives him the 10 line days off so it won't interfear with his vacation. Another prime example is "guaranteed pay". A friend at NWA averages 17 hours a month flying, yet he's paid for 70 some hours of flying. Is this healthy for the corporation? Another friend tells me that when something comes to question during a trip, they consult the FARs, Company Ops manual, then the union manual. Which do you think is most restrictive?

I believe the unions can still play a pivotal role in a workers life, yet I also feel they've become to overbearing. While it would be nice if we could all get $200 an hour plus per diem for our hours flown, could we live on $175 + per diem, still live a comfortable life and help our company during lean times?

Finally, someone commented on getting "stuck with your carrier or when you leave you take a major pay cut..." When I look at a job, I look at it as my long term career employer. Like all of us, over time I may decide to change companies, but I do so knowing that I might take a paycut and plan accordingly. However, I've got to believe those pilots who are hired by DAL, AAL, FDX and the like, look at this as the pinnacle of their careers. I'm sure everyone of them, once hired, considered their days of sending out resumes and hoping for interviews over, for all practical reasons.

Sorry to rant. Time to get the chaff and flares ready and check my six.

Regards,
2000Flyer

 

[COpilot]

2000 flyer, you better go vertical because here comes my first shot.

It sounds to me like just because you do not have a contract that allows you to bid a vacation, or fly a line of reserve time that gives you low line value, and guarantee paytime; we in the Airline business should be ashamed. Please correct me if you don't feel that way? In fact if it will make you feel better about Airline contracts you can look at mine. At CO we don't have Vacation trip protection, we don't make $300/hr on the B777, and we have no scope clause with any teeth, etc.

Granted we all need to rationalize pay and benifets during these times. However that is not the intention of the GOP, or Management. I belive this is simply the rich trying to go after the "middle class".

Sorry to say, Most pilots at CO, or a lot of other Airlines make no where near $175/hr.

Best wishes really.

 

[Ty Webb]

Re: Just An Opinion

At many airlines, you bid, trip trade, toss in a vacation and you can have 3-weeks off and get paid your entire line. So, you've contributed nothing to the company in three weeks but their paying you for not working? I know this as I have a relative at a US major.

Wow- spoken like a true idiot. You really should try to get some understanding of a subject before you start your rant.

What do you "Contribute" during your vacation? IT'S exactly the samething, buddy. If YOU don't think you deserve a vacation, that's your problem, not mine.

You sure sound like one of these guys who ruins corporate flight departments because he is in an unhappy marriage/has no life away from work and is therefore willing to do anything/everything with no regard for the quality of life? Sure sounds like it. Maybe when you grow up and get some perspective, you'll realize that flying is a j-o-b and that we deserve to be compensated like professionals?

Here's another one of your other brainstorms:


[b/]Another prime example is "guaranteed pay". A friend at NWA averages 17 hours a month flying, yet he's paid for 70 some hours of flying. Is this healthy for the corporation? [/b]

Believe it or not, Einstein, the Company is the one that builds those schedules, he just picked a schedule the Company put together. If they are building unproductive schedules, they are the ones able to change them, because they have operational control.

When you are paid by the flight hour, you need a guarantee, otherwise you have no idea what you will make month to month. IF your friend didn't get a guarantee, that means some junior guy would be given the 17 hour month, and paid $680. for the whole month, to be solely available to the company? Again, why don;t you try to understand the issue, instead of simply assuming that union pilots are getting outrageous amounts to do nothing?

Last- the system as it is is set up to discourage people from changing companies. Every time you leave, you start over, so it is not logical to tell someone making $110,000. to "just leave" and go start over at $35,000. each time the Company decides to change the rules . . . . it would actually be in the Company's interest to change the rules for the worst, in order to drive off the senior guys who are making more pay.

 

[2000flyer]

CoPilot,

First of all, the numbers I used ($200...$175...etc.) were just for example. Not meant as a slap at anyone. I realize newhires start much lower and it takes many years to get to that level.

Second, "you" in the airline business have NOTHING to be ashamed of. Nothing at all. It is the evolution of the unions and you live with them. I know many who are pro union, anit-union and on the fence. My point was just an opinion and not a slap at anyone.

You are correct...I have no contract that protects my vacation. I go into the Chief Pilot's office, request what dates I want and 9 out of 10 times I get what I've requested. I may fly 20 hours this month and 50 hours next month. My guaranteed pay comes in the form of a salary, not hourly.

I apologize if my comments have offended you in any way. As I stated earlier, I have relatives who do fly for the airlines. I'd hate to see them, and YOU for that matter, unemployed.

My Regards Sir
2000Flyer

 

[2000flyer]

Well, it seems my comments have gone farther to anger than just express my opion.

Ty, I believe you and I interviewed at the same time at your employer...if I remember correctly. I was hired at the same time and chose to remain at my present employer.

My opinion, I believe, should not have resulted in such a personal attack. It's just a different view point than your. I'm not the type to resort to personal attacks (ie bad marriage, ruin flight departments, etc.). I work at a great flight department thats operated aircraft for over 40 years. I have a great wife of 16 years and a wonderful family as well.

Finally, I am "grown up" and I am well compensated for what I do, and my "life" outside of my job couldn't be better! Please don't make assumptions if you have no idea who I am.

2000Flyer

 

[PTinbound]

Isn't it funny how a little kindness and diplomacy goes such a long way?

 

[F18-FDX]

Lots of mud being thrown back and forth here, but let's get back to the point - If you're not in favor of this bill, PLEASE take the few minutes to be heard and DON'T FORGET to pass it on to crewmembers on the line.

 

[active_herk]

Just a quick question to those who think airline pilots are overpaid. If my company generates $18 billion in yearly revenues due to the work I provide, should I get paid minimum wage so that the CEOs can make an even greater profit?

 

[Ty Webb]

Well, it seems my comments have gone farther to anger than just express my opion.

Ty, I believe you and I interviewed at the same time at your employer...if I remember correctly. I was hired at the same time and chose to remain at my present employer.

Uh, no, it's not possible, because the day I interviewed, I was the only non-121 pilot, and I stayed in contact with the guys from my interview group.

Your remarks were judgemental and inflammatory; they basically indicated that we (pilots working under union contracts) were somehow getting something better than what we deserved, and that employers should be free to change rules as they see fit, and if we didn;t like it, we could leave and start over somewhere else.

When I worked in corporate flight departments, promotions were usually given to the guys who were willing to do things that the other pilots weren;t willing to do . . . . therefore encouraging unsafe practices such as going in wx that others wouldn;t, carrying maintenance problems, etc., giving up your hard-earned days off . . . . just keep the customer happy, and they'll always ask for you . . . . . Often, those guys actually got to become the Chief Pilot, where they could set the "unspoken rules" that the others would follow, and if you weren;t willing to do those things, you got the unpleasant assignments, or let go.

Now imagine the above scenario, with 6000 pilots, some of which would be willing to do anything for a leg up on the next guy. That is why we have contracts. That is why we have work rules, and that is why we have seniority and longevity. That is why we have a minimum amount of pay per day worked. Need I go on?

Maybe you aren;t "that guy" in the type of flight department I outlined above, but your post indicated the same type of philosophy/attitude.

Rest assured, I earn every penny I make. And, when I make Captain, and am sitting on reserve for 18 days a month, (and only flying 17 HOURS that month) that I will definitely be earning a full month's paycheck, whether you understand it or not.

 

[2000flyer]

Ty,

I apologize if my opinions were "judgmental or inflamatory". They certainly weren't meant to be directed toward the pilot, but rather the union. I guess I should have better phrased them .

You infer that we have to suck up and kiss a## to get ahead in the corporate world, and while that may be true at some departments, it's not where I work. I would be subject to retribution or worse yet, to be released, if I took risks while flying (ie busting mins to get the passengers to destination). Promotions are based on seniority and, yes, hard work. However, if shifting my vacation to accomodate my company's need is whats required, I'd gladly do so.

I don't agree with the premise that the "company can change rules at anytime". I also believe it doesn't always take a union to provide that type of protection.

After checking, I didn't interview with you. Sorry for the mix-up. I do remember we did exchange information on the interview process at one time or another. Thats what makes this board so enjoyable, the free exchange of information and ideas, whether we see eye to eye or not.

Take care,

2000Flyer

 

[peepsmover]

"Yassuh Boss"

2000Flyer,

Unions have problems just like any institution. Still, unions as a whole have not only benefitted their union members but society as a whole, with many concepts like weekends, health benefits, vacations, workers safety, retirement plans, disability plans, and most importantly the elimination of child labor. Certainly these are benefits even the staunchest critics of unions would be unwilling to relinquish, yet paradoxically unwilling to give credit where credit is due.

Now, I ask you, what could be more American than negotiating your personal worth, with a company, rather than settling with a serf-like mentality of "Yassuh'Boss" on whatever the Boss wanted to give you? The company simply does not hand over those union pay scales or benefits, they are earned, and they are earned by the collective power of the membership who, like the members before possess the courage to risk their livlihood to obtain said benefits.

So you can certainly criticize the union's rules, benefits, and pay scales, but I'd be more than happy to help you learn the power of collective bargaining, it is really a beautiful concept, mired more in capitalism than any other model, because all contracts are malleable to reflect the economic situation, that fact has and never will change. Oh, but ya gotta be willing to risk it all...think you can do that? You are familiar with the element, courage, right? I know its a big step but its part of the price of staying in the dance.

In fact, unions have been too successful. Meaning that the employees walked and the beancounters figured that replacing the skilled workforce would far exceed the costs of giving so they reached a new agreement on the contract. This why corporate America is already seeking to further stack the deck against us. Because they cannot win against labor in the free market. Binding aribtiration? Why not let those corporate oafs have their salaries determined by binding arbitration too; how anti-free market is that? Clue: Binding arbitration is a requirement for most insurance policy holders. Do you think that corporate insurance attorneys crafted or created the concept of binding arbitration because they thought it was the fair thing to do or because they wanted to stack the deck in favor of their client, the corporation? In other words should your only recourse be limited be to what corporations offer or rather should you have full fledge access to the court system like our forefathers envisioned? The limiting of one's rights, its like saying you can only play ball with one hand tied behind your back. What do corporations fear? Name one corporation that went under because their employees sued them into extinction.

I think you are naive to believe that corporate America is going to look out for you as an individual, and even more naive to not understand the simplistic model of collective bargaining. Perhaps it is because you are ignorant about your true worth in today's economy, suffice it to say, an analysis would be in your best interest.

I sincerely wish you luck with the benevolence of your employer, oh you don't need luck, I'm certain your employer will always look out for you and your family.

P.Ss Dont be too selfpromoting, Airline Pilots do go the extra mile too when asked, to say shifting their vacation, not all of them, but you certainly dont have the pious market cornered, trust me.