Alert! Rochester FSDO Makes Own Rules

[midlifeflyer]

This came up on another board. I'm passing it around

Flying in the face of logic, common sense, not to mention what ther rule "says"., the Rochester FSDO has decided that in order to count toward the cross country requirements of the private, instrument and commercial certificate, =each leg= of a cross country must be more than 50 NM long.

http://aea.faa.gov/aea200/ea23/

Don't you just love it?

 

[avbug]

The reference cited by the FSDO site is the FAQ site, which is unofficial, and does contain errors. Note the disclaimer from the FAQ site: "Disclaimer Statement: The answers provided to the questions in this website are not legal interpretations. Only the FAA's Office of Chief Counsel and Regional Chief Counsel can provide legal interpretations. The FAA's Office of Chief Counsel does not review this website nor does it disseminate legal interpretations through it. However, there are some answers provided in this website where the FAA Office of Chief Counsel's legal interpretations have been reprinted."

However, the answers in this website address Frequently Asked Questions on 14_CFR part_61 and represents FAA Flight Standards Service policy as it relates to this regulation. The answers are provided for standardization purposes only.

However, a 1979 legal interpretation on the subject specifically states that the nature of cross country flight is subjective in certain circumstances, and assigns the FSDO the duty to make specific determinations on what may qualify and what may not. It is stated as follows:

PR. 11, 1979

MR. MARK HOLTGRAVE

Dear Mr. Holtgrave:

This is in response to your letter to the General Counsel of the Department of Transportation, in which you ask for a clarification of the cross-country flight requirements for an airline transport pilot certificate in Part 61 of the Federal Aviation Regulations.

As you know, the requirements for a private and a commercial pilot certificate with an airplane rating require that cross-country flight experience be gained on flights with a landing more than 50 nautical miles from the point of departure (sections 61.109 and 61.129). On the other hand, section 61.155, which specifies 500 hours of cross-country flight time, as required aeronautical experience for an airline transport certificate, does not impose a landing or a mileage requirement.

There is no legal definition of the term "cross-country flight." Whether specific flight experience is cross-country in character is a technical determination to be made by the FAA Flight Standards Service. It is the position of Flight Standards Service that, for pilots holding a commercial pilot certificate, the following flight experience as a required pilot flight crewmember is cross-country in character:

1. Any flight time acquired in an operation under Part 121, 123, or 135 of the Federal Aviation Regulations when a landing is made at a point other than the point of departure, regardless of the distance between the two points.

2. Any flight time acquired in an operation under Part 91, 127, or 137, when a landing is made at a point other than the point of departure, regardless of the distance between the points, and when the flight requires the use of one of the following:

(a) Dead reckoning navigation.

(b) At least two navigation facilities.

(c) a sole source airborne navigation device.

3. Any military flight time by a military pilot who qualifies for a commercial pilot certificate under Sec. 61.73 based on military competency, when the flight involves a travel distance of more than 50 nautical miles from the point of departure, regardless of whether a landing is made at a point other than the point of departure.

We hope that this information will be of assistance to you.

Sincerely,

CARL B. SCHELLENBERG
Assistant Chief Counsel
Regulations and Enforcement Division



Now, having said that, the soloution to the user is simple. If you have three legs of a flight, two of which are over 50 nm, and one of which is not, show the original point of departure at the very start of the flight...the entire operation is now cross country work.

If you elect to log each leg separately, then you can create a problem for yourself. If you elect to show the entire flight as one total flight time, and put the airports visited in the comments section only, you should never have an issue or a problem.

You are reading too much into the issue. The regulation states that the flight must have a landing at a point other than the original point of departure, that is at least 50 nm from the original point of departure.

If you make multiple landings enroute, or simply spend five hours doing steep turns at the half-way point, it's still cross country flying.

If you show a flight from A to B to C, and each is less than 50 nm apart, you may encounter difficulty, and the FSDO does have the discretion in that matter.

Note further Question 101 from the FAQ, further clarifying the policy:

QUESTION: What is the definition or an interpretation of the term “original point of departure” contained in § 61.129(b)(3)(iii).

ANSWER: There is no definition of the term “original point of departure” in Parts 1 or 61 or any other FAA publication. Each situation is unique and a definitive definition of “original point of departure” that will cover ALL circumstances and situations is not practicable AND NOT POSSIBLE.

Departure for the purpose of conducting a “round robin” cross-country flight is a normal scenario where “original point of departure” and destination are the same. See {Q&A-60} ANSWER 6: The “original point of departure” does not change with a new day or delay.

Other examples include:
1. The purpose of repositioning (emphasis: purpose of repositioning) the aircraft to another airport, to start a cross-country flight in order to meet the 250 nautical miles cross-country requirements of section_61.129(a)(4)(i).

2. A person departs the Los Angeles International Airport on day 1 for the purpose of conducting a cross-country flight to the San Jose Airport (emphasis purpose of conducting a cross-country flight to the San Jose Airport) and remains overnight. On day 2, that person departs San Jose Airport for the purpose of conducting a cross-country flight to the Lake Tahoe Airport (emphasis purpose of conducting a cross-country flight to the Lake Tahoe Airport) and remains overnight. On day 3, that person departs Lake Tahoe Airport for the purpose of conducting a cross-country flight to the Los Angeles Intl. Airport (emphasis purpose of conducting a cross-country flight to the Los Angeles Intl. Airport) for termination. Which airport is the “original point of departure?” All 3 airports would qualify as the “original point of departure.”

3. Now in a similar situation, but slightly different, a person departs the Los Angeles International Airport for the purpose of conducting a round-robin (without ever landing enroute) cross-country flight from the Los Angeles International Airport to the San Diego, CA 030? radial at 12 DME to the Yuma, AZ 350? radial at 10 DME and then returns to the Los Angeles Intl. Airport (emphasis purpose of conducting a “round-robin” cross-country flight). Which airport is the “original point of departure?” The Los Angeles International Airport is the “original point of departure”. But this cross-country flight will not qualify for you applicants in pursuit of a private pilot certificate, commercial pilot certificate, or an instrument rating. However, if this flight were conducted by a pilot who already holds a commercial pilot certificate, the flight is creditable for the ATP certificate cross-country requirement.

Adherence to these strict definitions of cross-country and the “original point of departure” is only necessary when the purpose is for crediting cross-country aeronautical experience for the furtherance of a pilot certificate and rating. Cross-country aeronautical experience acquired in pursuit of a private pilot certificate, commercial pilot certificate, and an instrument rating must meet the requirements of § 61.1(b)(3)(ii) or (iii) with a landing beyond 50 nautical miles for airplanes or 25 nautical miles for rotorcraft from the original point of departure. Cross-country aeronautical experience acquired in pursuit of an airline transport pilot certificate (except rotorcraft category) must meet the requirements of § 61.1(b)(3)(iv) and military pilots’ cross-country aeronautical experience is addressed in § 61.1(b)(3)(v).

 

[avbug]

I believe this answer, #364 from the FAA unoffical FAQ, addresses your concern, to your satisfaction:

QUESTION: I’m a student pilot in training seeking a Private Pilot Certificate with the Airplane Single-engine Land rating. On my night cross-country flight, I had to land 45 nautical miles from the original departure airport to take on fuel. Then I proceeded on to a destination that was beyond 50 nautical miles from the original departure airport. Does this still count as a cross-country required by § 61.109(a)(2)(i) even though I made an intermediate stop within 50 NM from the original departure airport?

ANSWER: Reference § 61.1(b)(3)(ii)(B) and § 61.109(a)(2)(i); Yes, per § 61.1(b)(3)(ii)(B), this counts as a cross-country flight assuming your cross-country flight also complied with the other provisions of § 61.1(b)(3)(ii)(A) and (C); that the flight was performed in a single-engine land airplane and you utilized “. . . dead reckoning, pilotage, electronic navigation aids, radio aids, or other navigation systems to navigate to the landing point.”

As per § 61.1(b)(3)(ii)(B), your cross-country flight included “. . . a point of landing that was at least a straight-line distance of more than 50 nautical miles from the original point of departure . . .” because after your intermediate stop to take on fuel you continued on to a destination that was “. . . more than 50 nautical miles from the original point of departure . . .” Therefore, your flight counts as a cross-country flight. The requirement was made to ensure that an applicant’s cross-country training had some reasonable distance between the original point of departure and the destination. But we didn’t reject landings made within the 50 NM radius because it is recognized there are also beneficial training aspects for allowing takeoffs and landings at other airports. Additionally, there could be situations like yours for fuel or because of weather or aircraft maintenance problems that required the pilot to land short of the 50 NM radius. But in such cases, if the pilot finally continues on to an airport more than 50_nautical miles from the original point of departure it would count as a cross-country.


Again, visit question #101, to see the same information repeated in reference to training flights ("dual"):

QUESTION 1: Does the cross country time required by Appendix B, paragraph 4 which requires 3 hours of cross-country flight training have to have a landing at least 50 NM from the departure point even though it is dual training?

ANSWER 1: Reference Part 141, Appx. B, Paragraph B.4.(b)(1)(i) and (ii)(A), No, the first landing doesn't have to be more than 50 nautical miles from the original point of departure but one of the landings better be; Review § 61.1(b)(3)(ii) ". . . a point of landing that was at least a straight line distance of more than 50 nautical miles from the original point of departure;" So, give me at least ONE ". . . a point of landing . . .more than 50 nautical miles from the original point of departure" and you've satisfied the cross country definition.


The explaination provided on the Rochester FSDO site elects to sample the regulation narrowly, and in a very conservative manner. I might suggest that someone with an interest forward the remainder of the FAQ (which was quoted out of context and only in part, by the FSDO), to the Rochester FSDO.