Alaska projects Seattle growth...

[alaskaplt]

It is going to be interesting to see what the arbitrator presents for scope. That was the only item that Billy Ayer attended. That tells me something right there.

This is a huge issue. I believe that one of the biggest threats to our pilot group is not recognizing how huge of an issue this is. Day in and day out I here from the old guys that the RJ is not a threat because people do not want to fly on them. As if the paying passenger even knows what ac he will be on. They only know what is cheapest. Our most likely threat comes from Horizon. Anyone who doesn't believe this, just look at ExpressJet. What are they now some 150 or so RJ's and 2600+ pilots. I wonder why CAL hasn't grown over the past years.

 

[mach none]

This is a huge issue. I believe that one of the biggest threats to our pilot group is not recognizing how huge of an issue this is. Day in and day out I here from the old guys that the RJ is not a threat because people do not want to fly on them. As if the paying passenger even knows what ac he will be on. They only know what is cheapest. Our most likely threat comes from Horizon. Anyone who doesn't believe this, just look at ExpressJet. What are they now some 150 or so RJ's and 2600+ pilots. I wonder why CAL hasn't grown over the past years.

I could not agree more. Scope and cabbotage are the biggest threats we face at Alaska and the entire industry.

 

[QCappy]

Relax guys! If the RJ was such a huge threat Horizon wouldn't have shipped 9 of them to Denver to fly for Frontier. The reality is all the PDX flying the RJs are doing are doing it because Alaska was losing money in those markets. Add frequency and lower capacity and you keep market share at a lower rate of loss. As far as the Q400, check the RNO-LAX loads. Looks pretty good to me, As well as SEA-GEG, SEA-BOI.....oh wait Alaska is flying three of the six flights a day on this route, I guess Alaska is the threat to Horizon, as we used to fly them all.Seriously, If they can make a profit using the Esikimo, they will. See Calgary. Used to be all Horizon, now its 1 Alaska, 2 Horizon. In the summer it will be 2 Alaska and 1 Horizon, Not to mention a non-stopper to LAX.

Oh, and you are welcome for that profit sharing check, all be it small, that was 3 times what you would have gotten if Horizon didn't make 75% of the Air Group's operating profit.

 

[av8instyle]

Scope.

Oh, and you are welcome for that profit sharing check

Yeah, thanks for that to you and all your buddies. I spent my $171 check wisely.
Scope.

 

[av8instyle]

Relax guys! If the RJ was such a huge threat Horizon wouldn't have shipped 9 of them to Denver to fly for Frontier.

The following is a direct quote out of the Alaska Air Group Annual Report:

In all, Alaska expects to grow
capacity by 6 percent in 2004. Horizon is forecasting 19 percent growth.

Relax guys! If the RJ was such a huge threat Horizon wouldn't have shipped 9 of them to Denver to fly for Frontier.

Scope.

PS: unless you prefer to stay at Horizon forever (not that there's anything "wrong with that") a little scope would help you too.

 

[mach none]

Relax guys! If the RJ was such a huge threat Horizon wouldn't have shipped 9 of them to Denver to fly for Frontier. The reality is all the PDX flying the RJs are doing are doing it because Alaska was losing money in those markets. Add frequency and lower capacity and you keep market share at a lower rate of loss. As far as the Q400, check the RNO-LAX loads. Looks pretty good to me, As well as SEA-GEG, SEA-BOI.....oh wait Alaska is flying three of the six flights a day on this route, I guess Alaska is the threat to Horizon, as we used to fly them all.Seriously, If they can make a profit using the Esikimo, they will. See Calgary. Used to be all Horizon, now its 1 Alaska, 2 Horizon. In the summer it will be 2 Alaska and 1 Horizon, Not to mention a non-stopper to LAX.

Oh, and you are welcome for that profit sharing check, all be it small, that was 3 times what you would have gotten if Horizon didn't make 75% of the Air Group's operating profit.

The seat costs of the RJ are 3x higher than the 737/MD. Something in the range of 18cents/seat mile. Management has admitted they can't make money with the RJ at Horizon. Hence, the deal with Frontier. Frontier is a pay for departure program. At Horizon, you have to fend for yourself.

I guess since you "made" the profit last year, that makes up for the previous years were Horizon was the drain.

You had better get used to the idea of Scope, if we don't get is on this go around, we will on the next contract.

 

[Singlecoil]

By the way, Alaska flew SEA-BOI in the 727 then gave the route to Horizon. I personally don't have much of a problem with Air Group shifting capacity around to reflect changing market trends. If the economy in PDX is down and we can't fill a Boeing product on a market, then stick an RJ on it and send the Boeing to Dallas.

I think as long as both sister companies grow, nobody is going to freak out. But if they furloughed at Alaska and ordered a bunch of RJ's, then it would be ugly. I've heard it said that Air Group treats the two as if there is some sort of scope policy when there actually is not. As long as both sides grow at a somewhat even pace, which hasn't been the case recently, I don't have a problem with sister relationship.

 

[crashpad]

Horizon has 8 and a spare in Denver, but any growth is nill with the more defined scope in F9s' upcoming contract. F9s future plans will ulitilize QX to maximize their productivity with the planes they have.

 

[mach none]

By the way, Alaska flew SEA-BOI in the 727 then gave the route to Horizon. I personally don't have much of a problem with Air Group shifting capacity around to reflect changing market trends. If the economy in PDX is down and we can't fill a Boeing product on a market, then stick an RJ on it and send the Boeing to Dallas.

I think as long as both sister companies grow, nobody is going to freak out. But if they furloughed at Alaska and ordered a bunch of RJ's, then it would be ugly. I've heard it said that Air Group treats the two as if there is some sort of scope policy when there actually is not. As long as both sides grow at a somewhat even pace, which hasn't been the case recently, I don't have a problem with sister relationship.

Our Management operates like there is scope, because the Northwest pilots contract mentions it. Management asked their pilots to deal this away recently and they did not. It is only a matter of time before they do, and I hope we have something by then.

 

[Ted Striker]

Scope and RJs

Alaska guys need to get a handle on this ASAP. Sounds like it is a priority which is good. I am an RJ driver on the Delta side of the world and it's not a good relationship. I am sure mainline guys would love to go back and redo the whole RJ issue. Management has been growing the heck out of DCI while furloughing mainline guys. We have way too many RJs. Scope keeps getting relaxed while DAL management threatens bankruptcy. More and more RJs taking over mainline routes. Why? Cheaper labor. RJs are not cheaper to operate (except for the pilots). Management is happy while some mailine and some connection pilots blame each other for their problems. Sounds like things between Horizon and Alaska haven't gotten too out of hand, hopefully it will be managed better than the Delta/DCI scene.

 

[Singlecoil]

Our Management operates like there is scope, because the Northwest pilots contract mentions it. Management asked their pilots to deal this away recently and they did not. It is only a matter of time before they do, and I hope we have something by then.

Excellent point; you're absolutely right.