Alaska FA's have Ball----s

[Old School 737]

Voted it down big !! Good for them !!

 

[Mamma]

Didn't they get scared because negotiations could go on for a few more months? I guess their union didn't lie to them well enough.

 

[Mookie]

Was pretty impressed with how well many understood the new TA. It was a turd with whipped cream on top!

Mookie

 

[CesnaCaptn]

Was pretty impressed with how well many understood the new TA. It was a turd with whipped cream on top!

Mookie

I wasn't very impressed. Many started their commentary with, "I haven't had a chance to read it yet, but I heard..."

 

[moochild11]

I wasn't very impressed. Many started their commentary with, "I haven't had a chance to read it yet, but I heard..."

I wish more of our pilots "hadn't had a chance to read it but heard it was a pos"

 

[wscrj]

Yeah.. All i remember hearing was "we have no choice" and "$200 an hour is good enough for me"

Oh, and "You know how much I can make flying on my vacation?!"

Good for them.

 

[densoo]

Yeah.. All i remember hearing was "we have no choice" and "$200 an hour is good enough for me"

Oh, and "You know how much I can make flying on my vacation?!"

Good for them.

Don't forget "retro checks" of dimes to the dollar. Ka ching, kinda, for a few weeks.

 

[heywood jablome]

I wasn't very impressed. Many started their commentary with, "I haven't had a chance to read it yet, but I heard..."

Not very impressed? The FA's voted this pos down by a WIDE margin. Not even close! Holy $hit!! Kudos to them.

These are the best of times for Alaska. Yes? Dividend increase? WTF?
Did you see their work rule concessions?
Oh, btw, the pilot group bought into a contract with NO scope that barely keeps up with inflation.
Our FAs have bigger balls than our pilots...oops, can I say that?

Rant over.

 

[CesnaCaptn]

Not very impressed? The FA's voted this pos down by a WIDE margin. Not even close! Holy $hit!! Kudos to them.

These are the best of times for Alaska. Yes? Dividend increase? WTF?
Did you see their work rule concessions?
Oh, btw, the pilot group bought into a contract with NO scope that barely keeps up with inflation.
Our FAs have bigger balls than our pilots...oops, can I say that?

Rant over.

All I'm say is that if you're going to carry on about how horrible a TA is, you should probably read it. At a minimum, read the executive summary. Many of the rumors these FAs were floating were false. Having said that, there were a few items that would have been a deal breaker for me too.

You talk about work rule concessions, did you see how many work rule gains they negotiated?

 

[Boxboy]

Alaska's FAs are not chicken little, unlike 2/3 of Alaskan's ************************* pilot group. Glad to see a group of people with spines vote accordingly instead of speaking out of their a$$!

 

[AK737FO]

So they are now 2 years without a contract and they just added another 6 months to a year to that. It takes time to move the pig through the python after a rejected TA. I have not seen their TA so I don't know if it was good, bad or middle of the road. I do know that every FA I asked about their TA said that they didn't know much about it. Kind of sad - it's your job, your quality of life, your pay - maybe you should read and learn what's going on? I wonder what they are looking for? It's going to have to be some HUGE numbers to ever recapture what they have given up for 2.5 to 3 years. Never underestimate the time / value of money and the point of diminishing returns.

 

[jonjuan]

So they are now 2 years without a contract and they just added another 6 months to a year to that. It takes time to move the pig through the python after a rejected TA. I have not seen their TA so I don't know if it was good, bad or middle of the road. I do know that every FA I asked about their TA said that they didn't know much about it. Kind of sad - it's your job, your quality of life, your pay - maybe you should read and learn what's going on? I wonder what they are looking for? It's going to have to be some HUGE numbers to ever recapture what they have given up for 2.5 to 3 years. Never underestimate the time / value of money and the point of diminishing returns.

Hi Lee M.

 

[scoreboardII]

so, what was their TA in comparison to present rules?

 

[Old School 737]

If it was only voted down by 1-4 percent then yes .. I would agree that most didn't Read it or understand it but .. 70 percent .. Big number ..

 

[Old School 737]

Hi Lee M.

Company doesn't want to drag this along .bad press when Everything else is all peaches and cream right now . I doubt it will go on more than 6 months .. More like 3 ..

 

[Boxboy]

So they are now 2 years without a contract and they just added another 6 months to a year to that. It takes time to move the pig through the python after a rejected TA. I have not seen their TA so I don't know if it was good, bad or middle of the road. I do know that every FA I asked about their TA said that they didn't know much about it. Kind of sad - it's your job, your quality of life, your pay - maybe you should read and learn what's going on? I wonder what they are looking for? It's going to have to be some HUGE numbers to ever recapture what they have given up for 2.5 to 3 years. Never underestimate the time / value of money and the point of diminishing returns.

Time value money bs again.uke: Alaskan's version of General Lee, are ya?

 

[CesnaCaptn]

so, what was their TA in comparison to present rules?

Here's what most would perceive as good/better:

Raises varied depending on longevity. I think some were looking at a 20% raise, some more (first year), some less (top of scale).

They got sit pay, which is think was a pretty big breakthrough. Sits that are scheduled or are actually over 2 hours they get credit/pay. I'm a little fuzzy on the details. It's either one hour of pay for every 2 hour sit or it's half the time for any sit over 2 hours. What I mean is, I'm not sure if a 3 hour sit pays 1 hour or 1.5 hours. I shouldn't be writing hours either--they get paid TFP like SWA.

Their rigs changed for the better. They used to have a minimum 4 TFP per calendar day. I'm pretty sure that was their only soft time. They could easily have a 3-day worth 12. They also could have had a 3 hour sit on each day.

It seems to me they wanted productivety improvements and they got some. I even heard one FA complain "if we have sit pay, we won't have as many sits and I won't be able to..."

They would have been able to drop a multi-day trip if they have adequate reserve coverage on the first day not every day as it is now.

From what I can tell, these were the major deal breakers:

They were getting rid of junior assingment on the day of (too many FAs were ignoring sked's calls). The new JA system was notification at the end of your duty period for the following day--couldn't turn it down. Lets say, using your seniority you had Chrismas Eve and Chrismas off. You wrap up your trip in Seattle on the 23rd and there's an inflight supe waiting for you in the jetway. "We have a 2 day Fairbanks with a 24 layover, report is 7am tomorrow." The trip pays 250% and you can post it to try to give it away. If you can't find any suckers on short notice, guess what? Your flying on your days off. It's even possible that the FA had a trip on that day and paid money to incentivize another FA to pick up her trip. You could go from having a trip, to no trip, to having a trip again. I think in their current contract, if they post a trip and give it away, they can not be JAed that day. Can you imagine paying to get a day off for an appointment/recital/name-your-important-life-event and now the company comes to you and says, "moving metal is more important than that?"

Their scope was a copy and paste of the pilots' scope which has some merger protection, but no seat protection.

There is a system to their attendance policy (points for late check in, no shows and sick calls). So many points and you're automatically fired. I don't quite understand the ins and outs of it, but I know there is a change. I think in the new TA they automatically have to present a note if they call in sick on a holiday. Guess what? The company had trouble getting the jr peops to fly on holidays. Now they pay 150% on more holidays and penalize greater for calling out for them.

Their sick leave has a major change to it too. Right now, as I understand it, they receive .1 sick leave for every TFP flown (not sure if vacations credits their sick bank). A FA flying 90 TFP in a month (reserve guarantee) receives 9 TFP sick leave. That's a more generous policy than the pilots have (we receive 5.5 hours per month). The TA now has the FA earning SL at the same rate, but 70% goes into a short term bank and 30% goes into a long term bank. The long term bank has certain restrictions to it and it most definitely is not used if you keep calling in sick here and there. Say your spouse has cancer and you need to be out sick for his/her chemo, etc. You only get to tap your short term bank. FAs look at this as a major setback (it is), but perhaps the company wanted to flat out cut their sick leave accrual by 30% and this was the compromise (I'm not trying to argue if any concession should be made during record profits).

I know there are some part time FAs. They give away their trips, but have to maintain some sort of minimums to maintain company paid health insurance and vacation actual. The present minimum is 480 TFP a year. Believe it or not, this actually has the senior FAs flying a lot in November and December to catch up. I know there was a change to this policy in the TA that requires more flying, but I can't recall the change.

Not sure if this change is big enough to mention, but it is a concession. Right now, reserves get an extra $2/TFP if they actually fly. This goes away and probably offsets the greater percentage raise the new hires receive.

I'm not sure how well I presented the TA. I'm on my iPhone and it's difficult to type out a long post. I'm also posting this from memory. A captain I flew with who is married to a FA had the summary and we went through it together. My personal opinion: The FAs wanted fewer sits, more productive pairing and more money. The company wanted the FAs to show up for work more dependably. Both sides got some of what they wanted. The FAs decided whether or not they could live with the changes and now we know the results.

 

[knightflyer]

In reality... FA's don't give a flyin F--- about anything but the bottom dollar! IE..."How much is rent and can I feed my cat?". Waaaaaaaay too much effort in contract analysis that will ultimately yield only localized results. MHO

 

[AK737FO]

Fact V Fiction

Time value money bs again.uke: Alaskan's version of General Lee, are ya?

Boxboy,
Just because you do not like the truth, does not mean that it is not the truth. Pull out a whiz wheel and do a little simple math. Arithmetic does not lie. 2 + 2 will always equal 4, until the end of time. You may not like it, you may not agree with it, but you can not change it.
There is no way on God's green earth that our F/A's will ever get a pay raise number big enough to recover what they have lost in the last two years. That is a simple fact. The time value of money can not be underestimated, especially when you are talking about 2 to 3 (or more) years of negotiations.
Now, I'm not saying that pay is everything. There could be other parts of their contract that are more important to the F/A group and therefore worth the years of negotiations to protect. That's up to their group to decide. I'm just saying that in regards to pay they are already so far behind that it is completely and totally impossible to catch up.

 

[Mach 80]

It's easier for F/A's "to have big balls" because it's MUCH easier for them to go out and get a another job approximating their monthly income than it is for a pilot.

In other words, it's easier to be bold in poker when you have little to lose.

 

[igneousy2]

Never underestimate the time / value of money and the point of diminishing returns.

You keep telling yourself that. Pilots are too smart for their own good. Most profitable airline in the industry = top pay throughout the life of the contract. It's that simple. If you don't have enough self-respect to demand that then I can't help you.

The problem with the whole tvm hypothesis is that it assumes you are considering all the variables. What is the TVM of the money we are going to lose because every other 737 operator that now negotiates a contract is going to be told to pack sand on any raise for their 737 drivers because the pilots of the most profitable airline aren't even going to make 5 years from now what pilots of bankrupt carriers are going to be making in 3.

When the Delta NC goes to RA next year and demands a raise for their 737 pilots he is going to laugh in their face. How can they expect a raise when in 2015 737 pilots at Delta are going to be making more than AS pilots are going to be making in 2018. Hell, in 2018, Delta, United, AA, and US Air pilots are all going to be making more than Alaska pilots without negotiating a single additional contract.

Meanwhile, Alaska Airlines is distributing millions to it's shareholders through increased dividends and share buy-backs. Meanwhile there is a large spike in insider selling of stocks. We got them right where we want them alright!

http://seekingalpha.com/article/2025731-alaska-air-7-different-insiders-have-sold-shares-this-month

Alaska Air: 7 Different Insiders Have Sold Shares This Month
Feb. 17, 2014 6:31 AM ET by: Markus Aarnio
Disclosure: I have no positions in any stocks mentioned, and no plans to initiate any positions within the next 72 hours. I wrote this article myself, and it expresses my own opinions. I am not receiving compensation for it (other than from Seeking Alpha). I have no business relationship with any company whose stock is mentioned in this article. (More...)


In this article, I will feature one regional airline stock that has seen intensive insider selling during the last 30 days. Intensive insider selling can be defined by the following three criteria:

1. The stock was sold by three or more insiders within one month.
2. The stock was not purchased by any insiders in the month of intensive selling.
3. At least two sellers decreased their holdings by more than 10%.

In 5 years I will bet that I will not be able to find a single soul that voted for this joke of a contract.

 

[Boxboy]

Boxboy,
Just because you do not like the truth, does not mean that it is not the truth. Pull out a whiz wheel and do a little simple math. Arithmetic does not lie. 2 + 2 will always equal 4, until the end of time. You may not like it, you may not agree with it, but you can not change it.
There is no way on God's green earth that our F/A's will ever get a pay raise number big enough to recover what they have lost in the last two years. That is a simple fact. The time value of money can not be underestimated, especially when you are talking about 2 to 3 (or more) years of negotiations.
Now, I'm not saying that pay is everything. There could be other parts of their contract that are more important to the F/A group and therefore worth the years of negotiations to protect. That's up to their group to decide. I'm just saying that in regards to pay they are already so far behind that it is completely and totally impossible to catch up.

It's always not about just the hourly pay; it's the whole package. So, if you just want to talk about straight pay, you may have a case regarding TVM.
Most AS pilots are weak. I get it. No amount of my explanation will ever change the likes of you, so I'm just going to save my key strokes. You would be singing a different tune if you were still in the right seat. Like I've said, most of our pilots are very SHORT SIGHTED and are extreme WDs. Enjoy those all nighters!

 

[AK737FO]

Boxboy,
I agree with you, it's not just about pay. I said so above. What little I know about the F/A's contract seems to show that they are not that concerned with pay. There are other parts of their contract that they want to hold one to (productivity issues) that the company want to get rid of. So here they are - years go bye, they have lost a lot in wages but they keep other parts of their contract that they want and value more than money. That's their choice as a collective group. I'm only pointing out that they will never regain those lost wages and heaven forbid that they someday loose on the other issues that they gave up all those wages trying to keep.
BTW, I have not done an all nighter in years. ANC is slowly turning into a vampire base, but it's not that hard to avoid them - even with out 3rd step

 

[igneousy2]

I can make adjustments for having slightly less pay...but work rules are only going to get worse going forward. So hanging on to the ones you got is critical. Kudos to them. I keep hearing about the increased monthly minimum as a big deal and the fact that FAs at a certain seniority range were going to receive what amounted to a pay cut.

Good for them...I wish the pilots had half the balls the FAs are showing.

I'm buying the FAs the first round this month.

 

[flythere]

I think for a lot of those FA's, better than 60-70 percent, their jobs as a flight attendant with Alaska Air is NOT their primary source of income, so for a vast majority of them job security is not a big deal! Compared to pilots, where better than 90% percent of them are the bread winners in their respective households.

Are the exceptions to this, sure, my point is I think it was easier for the majority of FA's to say no, particularly on that change to JA, that seems to be a big deal for them!

I'm glad a majority were able to find common ground on an item and vote it down! It's their contract and work rules, they are the ones that will have to live with it!!!