Comair's looking for something to operate into HHH and other high yield markets with short RW's. The Rev. from that one market is very, very good. With the SS. Titanic (USAir) cruising toward the iceberg. The second most affluent community on the East Coast would probably subsidize a well run company to get rid of U.
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Airways Magazine: Comair Dash 8 Q400s?
- Thread starter FurloughedAgain
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On Your Six
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climbhappy
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Q400 costs
Several years ago, each US Airways wholly owned regional company was tasked with doing cost analysis on the current RJs being manufactured. In addition to these surveys, one of the WOs, I believe ALG, did a presentation to U management on the viability of a Q400. Dollar per dollar, the Q400 could operate in their enviroment (NE Corridor) less than the CRJ and ERJ, but the cost difference wasn't substantial...not the "golly gee wiz" stuff they where looking for. Also, per aircraft, the price difference from the CRJ (which is what PSA got) wasn't that much different, either.
Wolfe and Gangwal were bent on RJ expansion at the least amount of $$$ at the cheapest bidder. The result is what you see now. The Q400 analysis was treated as a "thanks, but no thanks" idea. With fuel prices now soaring, it is apparent that DS and the folks in Crystal City are rethinking this idea.
The Horizon guys could give better feed back. I was able to visit the Q400 sims in SEA and YYZ and play. The cockpit is huge, like the current DASH fleet aircraft (Boeing original design?), less that 12" diameter trim wheel on either side of the pedestal. Flight Safety SEA had a press release in the break room that stated the Q400, with its PW150s (5000 shp) had broken the time to climb record for turboprops, climbing from SL to FL180 in, I think, 7 minutes. Pretty good for a prop airplane. Last I heard, it was still a common Type.
As for U, someone has to finance any order; U has no $$$. I wonder if Bombardier will come through with a deal like Tolouse did....
Several years ago, each US Airways wholly owned regional company was tasked with doing cost analysis on the current RJs being manufactured. In addition to these surveys, one of the WOs, I believe ALG, did a presentation to U management on the viability of a Q400. Dollar per dollar, the Q400 could operate in their enviroment (NE Corridor) less than the CRJ and ERJ, but the cost difference wasn't substantial...not the "golly gee wiz" stuff they where looking for. Also, per aircraft, the price difference from the CRJ (which is what PSA got) wasn't that much different, either.
Wolfe and Gangwal were bent on RJ expansion at the least amount of $$$ at the cheapest bidder. The result is what you see now. The Q400 analysis was treated as a "thanks, but no thanks" idea. With fuel prices now soaring, it is apparent that DS and the folks in Crystal City are rethinking this idea.
The Horizon guys could give better feed back. I was able to visit the Q400 sims in SEA and YYZ and play. The cockpit is huge, like the current DASH fleet aircraft (Boeing original design?), less that 12" diameter trim wheel on either side of the pedestal. Flight Safety SEA had a press release in the break room that stated the Q400, with its PW150s (5000 shp) had broken the time to climb record for turboprops, climbing from SL to FL180 in, I think, 7 minutes. Pretty good for a prop airplane. Last I heard, it was still a common Type.
As for U, someone has to finance any order; U has no $$$. I wonder if Bombardier will come through with a deal like Tolouse did....
Q400 costs
Several years ago, each US Airways wholly owned regional company was tasked with doing cost analysis on the current RJs being manufactured. In addition to these surveys, one of the WOs, I believe ALG, did a presentation to U management on the viability of a Q400. Dollar per dollar, the Q400 could operate in their enviroment (NE Corridor) less than the CRJ and ERJ, but the cost difference wasn't substantial...not the "golly gee wiz" stuff they where looking for. Also, per aircraft, the price difference from the CRJ (which is what PSA got) wasn't that much different, either.
Wolfe and Gangwal were bent on RJ expansion at the least amount of $$$ at the cheapest bidder. The result is what you see now. The Q400 analysis was treated as a "thanks, but no thanks" idea. With fuel prices now soaring, it is apparent that DS and the folks in Crystal City are rethinking this idea.
The Horizon guys could give better feed back. I was able to visit the Q400 sims in SEA and YYZ and play. The cockpit is huge, like the current DASH fleet aircraft (Boeing original design?), less that 12" diameter trim wheel on either side of the pedestal. Flight Safety SEA had a press release in the break room that stated the Q400, with its PW150s (5000 shp) had broken the time to climb record for turboprops, climbing from SL to FL180 in, I think, 7 minutes. Pretty good for a prop airplane. Last I heard, it was still a common Type.
As for U, someone has to finance any order; U has no $$$. I wonder if Bombardier will come through with a deal like Tolouse did....
Several years ago, each US Airways wholly owned regional company was tasked with doing cost analysis on the current RJs being manufactured. In addition to these surveys, one of the WOs, I believe ALG, did a presentation to U management on the viability of a Q400. Dollar per dollar, the Q400 could operate in their enviroment (NE Corridor) less than the CRJ and ERJ, but the cost difference wasn't substantial...not the "golly gee wiz" stuff they where looking for. Also, per aircraft, the price difference from the CRJ (which is what PSA got) wasn't that much different, either.
Wolfe and Gangwal were bent on RJ expansion at the least amount of $$$ at the cheapest bidder. The result is what you see now. The Q400 analysis was treated as a "thanks, but no thanks" idea. With fuel prices now soaring, it is apparent that DS and the folks in Crystal City are rethinking this idea.
The Horizon guys could give better feed back. I was able to visit the Q400 sims in SEA and YYZ and play. The cockpit is huge, like the current DASH fleet aircraft (Boeing original design?), less that 12" diameter trim wheel on either side of the pedestal. Flight Safety SEA had a press release in the break room that stated the Q400, with its PW150s (5000 shp) had broken the time to climb record for turboprops, climbing from SL to FL180 in, I think, 7 minutes. Pretty good for a prop airplane. Last I heard, it was still a common Type.
As for U, someone has to finance any order; U has no $$$. I wonder if Bombardier will come through with a deal like Tolouse did....
DrinkSweetTea
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easy spirit
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Cost
When ASA was threatening ATR with getting rid of the ATR's, they were saying they would replace them with the Q400. The rumor mill had it that the Q wasn't that cost effect compared to the CRJ. I mean an a/c that has 4000shp is going to suck some Jet A. So between the cost of the a/c and training cost ASA shelved the idea.
I would like to have "real" numbers on fuel burn between the Q and a CRJ....preferably between the same city pairs.
When ASA was threatening ATR with getting rid of the ATR's, they were saying they would replace them with the Q400. The rumor mill had it that the Q wasn't that cost effect compared to the CRJ. I mean an a/c that has 4000shp is going to suck some Jet A. So between the cost of the a/c and training cost ASA shelved the idea.
I would like to have "real" numbers on fuel burn between the Q and a CRJ....preferably between the same city pairs.
~~~^~~~
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Sinca :
You are correct. The way it is was explained to me was that the Q400 burned about 1/3 more fuel than the ATR. The speed was not make much difference on 100 to 300 mile trips the ATR does - 2 or 3 minutes only.
If the swap was cost neutral, ASA would be interested in the Q400. Otherwise they would stay with the ATR.
If there was any scope relief, ASA would instantly retire the ATR fleet and replace them with CRJ-700's. Sure the airplane is much more expensive, but apparently the increased expense would be offset by doing away with another fleet type, training department and maintenance.
I don't know if that would still hold true if the CRJ-700 were to be flown by Delta pilots. Sure Delta would keep all of the logistical work in house, but ALPA's preference is to have another "carrier" for the mainline guys to fly at so the politics look better - no votes going to the "Connection" MEC and as connection jobs are phased out nobody can scream about seniority rights....
The Q400 is a neat airplane, but unless you have a mountain to climb over it does not make as much operational sense as a ATR72-500 IMHO.
~~~^~~~
You are correct. The way it is was explained to me was that the Q400 burned about 1/3 more fuel than the ATR. The speed was not make much difference on 100 to 300 mile trips the ATR does - 2 or 3 minutes only.
If the swap was cost neutral, ASA would be interested in the Q400. Otherwise they would stay with the ATR.
If there was any scope relief, ASA would instantly retire the ATR fleet and replace them with CRJ-700's. Sure the airplane is much more expensive, but apparently the increased expense would be offset by doing away with another fleet type, training department and maintenance.
I don't know if that would still hold true if the CRJ-700 were to be flown by Delta pilots. Sure Delta would keep all of the logistical work in house, but ALPA's preference is to have another "carrier" for the mainline guys to fly at so the politics look better - no votes going to the "Connection" MEC and as connection jobs are phased out nobody can scream about seniority rights....
The Q400 is a neat airplane, but unless you have a mountain to climb over it does not make as much operational sense as a ATR72-500 IMHO.
~~~^~~~
The Q400 trues out at 380kn. Significantly more than the ATR72 and easily makes up for the minor increase in fuel burn. The 400 blows away the RJ's...particularily on legs of 1 and a half hours or less.
I agree there is some public preception issues...Still Horizon has been flying them on routes competing directly with SW 737 and the passengers seem over all pleased. People want frequency and price when they buy their seats.
I agree there is some public preception issues...Still Horizon has been flying them on routes competing directly with SW 737 and the passengers seem over all pleased. People want frequency and price when they buy their seats.
On Your Six
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~~~^~~~
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Don't get me wrong. I'd love to see a Dash 8 Q 400 on the Connection property just for the sex appeal, but it is at least 20% more expensive to operate than the ATR over the same route.
Here is my source. Flip straight to page 55 and back for the cost comparisons between the ATR and the Dash 8, CRJ200 and CRJ700.
ATR Presentation
The fact Bombardier does not refute these numbers lends to their credibility.
Here is my source. Flip straight to page 55 and back for the cost comparisons between the ATR and the Dash 8, CRJ200 and CRJ700.
ATR Presentation
The fact Bombardier does not refute these numbers lends to their credibility.
FurloughedAgain
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On Your Six
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rubberducky
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