General Lee
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Airways Magazine: Comair Dash 8 Q400s?
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House_X
House X by Peter Eisenman
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I've been bragging about the Q400 for a couple of years...faster than most straight wing jets, looks great, Honeywell Primus Avionics (I think) the list goes on and on.
I always wondered why the Q400 didn't catch on...maybe the regional airlines are finally discovering that it's a great airplane.
I always wondered why the Q400 didn't catch on...maybe the regional airlines are finally discovering that it's a great airplane.
On Your Six
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The big problem for both the Q400 and the Saab 2000 had nothing to do with the airplanes. They are both great airplanes. The problem is they came out when the regionals were in a rush to shed turboprop equipment for jets because of their popularity with the flying public. Unfortunaelty John Q Public associates turboprops with old technology and jets with new technology, even if the jet is older and less advanced than the turboprop. Fortunately for the Q400 (and possibly others) it seems the price of Jet A may force the regionals to take a second look at using Turboprops for short haul markets.
I would love to see that happen General. But it will never happen until your MEC, the Comair MEC, and the ASA MEC decide to get together, leave the egos outside the room, and do what is best for all of the pilots flying under the Delta brand. Everybody (including the DL pilots) will have to give a little to get a little and until everybody is willing to leave their sacred cows and attitudes outside of the room this will never happen. Sadly, it looks as though everybody has dug their little foxholes and are digging in. That is until Grinstein comes along and frags each one of you individually which will be a sad day indeed. You guys can accomplish much more together than you can seperately; its a shame you probably won't figure that out unitil its too late.
That being said, I don't have a dog in this fight anymore......Independence is on the way and I'm looking forward to working where every aircraft is a mainline aircraft and we don't have any of this regional vs mainline crap.
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Comair's looking for something to operate into HHH and other high yield markets with short RW's. The Rev. from that one market is very, very good. With the SS. Titanic (USAir) cruising toward the iceberg. The second most affluent community on the East Coast would probably subsidize a well run company to get rid of U.
On Your Six
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climbhappy
ex pat
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Q400 costs
Several years ago, each US Airways wholly owned regional company was tasked with doing cost analysis on the current RJs being manufactured. In addition to these surveys, one of the WOs, I believe ALG, did a presentation to U management on the viability of a Q400. Dollar per dollar, the Q400 could operate in their enviroment (NE Corridor) less than the CRJ and ERJ, but the cost difference wasn't substantial...not the "golly gee wiz" stuff they where looking for. Also, per aircraft, the price difference from the CRJ (which is what PSA got) wasn't that much different, either.
Wolfe and Gangwal were bent on RJ expansion at the least amount of $$$ at the cheapest bidder. The result is what you see now. The Q400 analysis was treated as a "thanks, but no thanks" idea. With fuel prices now soaring, it is apparent that DS and the folks in Crystal City are rethinking this idea.
The Horizon guys could give better feed back. I was able to visit the Q400 sims in SEA and YYZ and play. The cockpit is huge, like the current DASH fleet aircraft (Boeing original design?), less that 12" diameter trim wheel on either side of the pedestal. Flight Safety SEA had a press release in the break room that stated the Q400, with its PW150s (5000 shp) had broken the time to climb record for turboprops, climbing from SL to FL180 in, I think, 7 minutes. Pretty good for a prop airplane. Last I heard, it was still a common Type.
As for U, someone has to finance any order; U has no $$$. I wonder if Bombardier will come through with a deal like Tolouse did....
Several years ago, each US Airways wholly owned regional company was tasked with doing cost analysis on the current RJs being manufactured. In addition to these surveys, one of the WOs, I believe ALG, did a presentation to U management on the viability of a Q400. Dollar per dollar, the Q400 could operate in their enviroment (NE Corridor) less than the CRJ and ERJ, but the cost difference wasn't substantial...not the "golly gee wiz" stuff they where looking for. Also, per aircraft, the price difference from the CRJ (which is what PSA got) wasn't that much different, either.
Wolfe and Gangwal were bent on RJ expansion at the least amount of $$$ at the cheapest bidder. The result is what you see now. The Q400 analysis was treated as a "thanks, but no thanks" idea. With fuel prices now soaring, it is apparent that DS and the folks in Crystal City are rethinking this idea.
The Horizon guys could give better feed back. I was able to visit the Q400 sims in SEA and YYZ and play. The cockpit is huge, like the current DASH fleet aircraft (Boeing original design?), less that 12" diameter trim wheel on either side of the pedestal. Flight Safety SEA had a press release in the break room that stated the Q400, with its PW150s (5000 shp) had broken the time to climb record for turboprops, climbing from SL to FL180 in, I think, 7 minutes. Pretty good for a prop airplane. Last I heard, it was still a common Type.
As for U, someone has to finance any order; U has no $$$. I wonder if Bombardier will come through with a deal like Tolouse did....
Q400 costs
Several years ago, each US Airways wholly owned regional company was tasked with doing cost analysis on the current RJs being manufactured. In addition to these surveys, one of the WOs, I believe ALG, did a presentation to U management on the viability of a Q400. Dollar per dollar, the Q400 could operate in their enviroment (NE Corridor) less than the CRJ and ERJ, but the cost difference wasn't substantial...not the "golly gee wiz" stuff they where looking for. Also, per aircraft, the price difference from the CRJ (which is what PSA got) wasn't that much different, either.
Wolfe and Gangwal were bent on RJ expansion at the least amount of $$$ at the cheapest bidder. The result is what you see now. The Q400 analysis was treated as a "thanks, but no thanks" idea. With fuel prices now soaring, it is apparent that DS and the folks in Crystal City are rethinking this idea.
The Horizon guys could give better feed back. I was able to visit the Q400 sims in SEA and YYZ and play. The cockpit is huge, like the current DASH fleet aircraft (Boeing original design?), less that 12" diameter trim wheel on either side of the pedestal. Flight Safety SEA had a press release in the break room that stated the Q400, with its PW150s (5000 shp) had broken the time to climb record for turboprops, climbing from SL to FL180 in, I think, 7 minutes. Pretty good for a prop airplane. Last I heard, it was still a common Type.
As for U, someone has to finance any order; U has no $$$. I wonder if Bombardier will come through with a deal like Tolouse did....
Several years ago, each US Airways wholly owned regional company was tasked with doing cost analysis on the current RJs being manufactured. In addition to these surveys, one of the WOs, I believe ALG, did a presentation to U management on the viability of a Q400. Dollar per dollar, the Q400 could operate in their enviroment (NE Corridor) less than the CRJ and ERJ, but the cost difference wasn't substantial...not the "golly gee wiz" stuff they where looking for. Also, per aircraft, the price difference from the CRJ (which is what PSA got) wasn't that much different, either.
Wolfe and Gangwal were bent on RJ expansion at the least amount of $$$ at the cheapest bidder. The result is what you see now. The Q400 analysis was treated as a "thanks, but no thanks" idea. With fuel prices now soaring, it is apparent that DS and the folks in Crystal City are rethinking this idea.
The Horizon guys could give better feed back. I was able to visit the Q400 sims in SEA and YYZ and play. The cockpit is huge, like the current DASH fleet aircraft (Boeing original design?), less that 12" diameter trim wheel on either side of the pedestal. Flight Safety SEA had a press release in the break room that stated the Q400, with its PW150s (5000 shp) had broken the time to climb record for turboprops, climbing from SL to FL180 in, I think, 7 minutes. Pretty good for a prop airplane. Last I heard, it was still a common Type.
As for U, someone has to finance any order; U has no $$$. I wonder if Bombardier will come through with a deal like Tolouse did....
DrinkSweetTea
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easy spirit
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Cost
When ASA was threatening ATR with getting rid of the ATR's, they were saying they would replace them with the Q400. The rumor mill had it that the Q wasn't that cost effect compared to the CRJ. I mean an a/c that has 4000shp is going to suck some Jet A. So between the cost of the a/c and training cost ASA shelved the idea.
I would like to have "real" numbers on fuel burn between the Q and a CRJ....preferably between the same city pairs.
When ASA was threatening ATR with getting rid of the ATR's, they were saying they would replace them with the Q400. The rumor mill had it that the Q wasn't that cost effect compared to the CRJ. I mean an a/c that has 4000shp is going to suck some Jet A. So between the cost of the a/c and training cost ASA shelved the idea.
I would like to have "real" numbers on fuel burn between the Q and a CRJ....preferably between the same city pairs.
~~~^~~~
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Sinca :
You are correct. The way it is was explained to me was that the Q400 burned about 1/3 more fuel than the ATR. The speed was not make much difference on 100 to 300 mile trips the ATR does - 2 or 3 minutes only.
If the swap was cost neutral, ASA would be interested in the Q400. Otherwise they would stay with the ATR.
If there was any scope relief, ASA would instantly retire the ATR fleet and replace them with CRJ-700's. Sure the airplane is much more expensive, but apparently the increased expense would be offset by doing away with another fleet type, training department and maintenance.
I don't know if that would still hold true if the CRJ-700 were to be flown by Delta pilots. Sure Delta would keep all of the logistical work in house, but ALPA's preference is to have another "carrier" for the mainline guys to fly at so the politics look better - no votes going to the "Connection" MEC and as connection jobs are phased out nobody can scream about seniority rights....
The Q400 is a neat airplane, but unless you have a mountain to climb over it does not make as much operational sense as a ATR72-500 IMHO.
~~~^~~~
You are correct. The way it is was explained to me was that the Q400 burned about 1/3 more fuel than the ATR. The speed was not make much difference on 100 to 300 mile trips the ATR does - 2 or 3 minutes only.
If the swap was cost neutral, ASA would be interested in the Q400. Otherwise they would stay with the ATR.
If there was any scope relief, ASA would instantly retire the ATR fleet and replace them with CRJ-700's. Sure the airplane is much more expensive, but apparently the increased expense would be offset by doing away with another fleet type, training department and maintenance.
I don't know if that would still hold true if the CRJ-700 were to be flown by Delta pilots. Sure Delta would keep all of the logistical work in house, but ALPA's preference is to have another "carrier" for the mainline guys to fly at so the politics look better - no votes going to the "Connection" MEC and as connection jobs are phased out nobody can scream about seniority rights....
The Q400 is a neat airplane, but unless you have a mountain to climb over it does not make as much operational sense as a ATR72-500 IMHO.
~~~^~~~
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