AirTran to take ATA Employees with Deal

[FarginDooshbahg]

While I wish nothing but the best for the ATA pilot group, there sure seems to be a lot of closed eyes, denial and wishful thinking going on. Then again, that has to be better than the reality of it all. But preparing for reality will have a much better outcome than hoping for a good fairy to come along and make everything ok.

 

[CMonBoard]

Over the last 48 hours or so I have read numerous times on this thread that ATA is worth more as a whole than in pieces. I respectfully disagree. The value of a business is determined by it's profitability or maybe even return on equity. The markets decide what the company is worth at a specific point in time (sometimes accurately and other times not so).

It's not just the price of fuel and labor costs that have caused numerous airlines to enter into Chapter 11. Obviously, there is more to it. Perhaps the business plan is flawed or maybe it has to do with a combination of factors.

Chapter 11 is being used as a way to correct some poor decisions in the past. Saying that it is more valuable as a whole piece isn't accurate because if it were, it would be profitable and well run. It sounds almost as if what is being said is, "Let's get rid of this management and get bought out as a group of employees and suddenly we will become profitable."

 

[Tristar]

No, what's being said is ATA has a turnkey Midwest hub, the ETOPS ops specs, and the ability to operate anywhere in the world today, as well as the ability to get back into the military charter market. I stand by the prediction the international LCC is the next big thing, and the airline that capitalizes on it will reap rewards. Cut it up and you lose the potential synergies of the whole. No, by itself ATA is too small and too isolated with only the MDW hub, but combine that with another carrier with a good (but not overlapping route structure) and you now have a real player.

BTC

 

[mnboyev]

I agree... Turnkey , assuming everything goes smoothly in the shift of flying from one color tail to another...?? Right... pretty optimistic that will happen.

Everything I hear is FL is going to do the flying and supplement with ATA equipment and crews... Like Ryan, Air Wis, Miami Air... bla bla bla... Nothing new here... same ol story at FL... expand using other folks stuff. Less risky that way.... ??

ATA is a great group. I would like to say that seniority would be merged and fences built... However, not gonna happen based on what I've seen them do in the past. ... dont wait for the lawyers to argue it out. I wish you all the best and would enjoy flying with any ATA stick.

 

[Tristar]

I agree... Turnkey , assuming everything goes smoothly in the shift of flying from one color tail to another...?? Right... pretty optimistic that will happen.

A function of corporate cultures and willingness of the parties involved to find equitable solutions. Certainly it is a tricky proposition, but not an insurmountable one should both parties choose to work together. Whether anyone chooses to take said high road remains to be seen, but keep one factor in mind - MANY ATA pilots are refugees from other failed carriers, Braniff, Eastern, TWA, ect. These guys have been down the road before and don't necessarily care to repeat past mistakes. As a whole I don't think we are looking to shaft anyone (hey, there's always one guy in the crowd right?), just to be dealt with fairly, the way anyone else would hope to be treated in a similar situation. I agree, it doesn't appear AirTran has any interest in doing any of the above, which is unfortunate. We shall see . . .

BTC

 

[Ty Webb]

Tristar sez:

I stand by the LCC airline that capitalizes on it.

Cut it up.

ATA is too small and too isolated.

the MDW hub, combine that with another carrier with a good route structure and you now have a real player.

BTC

Hey, Tristar, just wanted you to see what your own comments look like, when taken out of context, like you did with mine.

 

[Tristar]

In other words, you have no intelligent reply.

Your statements were taken as paragraphs, in the context you wrote them. If you do not like to overall tone that they give, perhaps you should choose your answers more carefully.

Not only did you take my text out of context, but completely altered sentences! Really, it's not even a case of taking things out of context, its a case of fabricating new material using a few choice words. For example:

I mean, come on we're buying your airplanes. You guys will continue to fly for AirTran. Would you like my number?

That is what you did to my statement. Note: the above quote is a complete misrepresentation of Ty's words - to be fair here is what he actually said:

I mean, come on.. . . . . We're not buying any of your airplanes. You guys aren't even parking the airplanes, and you will probably continue to fly these routes for a year or so, while your company finds other routes to deploy them on, which may or may not compete with AirTran's routes.

Also, you would have to resign your ATA number . . . what if ATA redeploys your airplane on other routes . . . . . are you still going to give up your ATA seniority then, and come to AirTran? Should we hold a spot for you? Would you like my number, while you make up your mind? This discussion is just ridiculous. Unless we buy some of your airplanes, it's a waste of time.

Here is how I quoted Ty:

. . . I mean, come on.. . . . . We're not buying any of your airplanes. You guys aren't even parking the airplanes, and you will probably continue to fly these routes for a year or so, while your company finds other routes to deploy them on, which may or may not compete with AirTran's routes.

You be the judge . . .

BTC

 

[Jeff Helgeson]

The enemy is at the gates.....

.....and it's us!

 

[Ty Webb]

Your statements were taken as paragraphs, in the context you wrote them. If you do not like to overall tone that they give, perhaps you should choose your answers more carefully.

The quotes you took were out of context because they gave no indication what each paragraph was posted in response to, and combined them in a way that was designed to make them appear more inflammatory than they were.

I understand that for ATA pilots, this is a huge and extremely sensitive issue. I would be very upset with the situation, too.

You don't have to agree with my interpretation of this sale of gate leases and slots, but accusing me of "pontificating" and "being idiotic" is not going to do anything to further relations between our pilot groups, that is for sure.

 

[Tristar]

You don't have to agree with my interpretation of this sale of gate leases and slots, but accusing me of "pontificating" and "being idiotic" is not going to do anything to further relations between our pilot groups, that is for sure.

Point taken, and for that I will apologize.

BTC

 

[Publishers]

When your company enters Chapter 11, it is a statement that we did not succeed and have failed. That is the attitude that you have to have. Anything that keeps me in a job from that point on is a good thing. In a smaller business with less cash flow, you are looking up unemployment telephone numbers.

There is no merger here, no combination of assets, it was a fire sale nad Air Tran was buying. Hopefully that will give ATA some money to get out fo Chapter 11 with a new plan. Daley already got his moment of PR out of this now it is time to move on.

 

[CaptSeth]

When your company enters Chapter 11, it is a statement that we did not succeed and have failed.

Sorry sparky, but that's not quite right. It means MANAGEMENT has failed the EMPLOYEES and the TRAVELING PUBLIC. Also, it means that a reckless, stupid president has invaded a major oil producing nation under false pretenses, destabilizing world markets and the single largest industry in this country.

The business plans for every airline in this country are failing ones as a result of this - including SW and B6, they'll just have a little more time until their hedging contracts expire.

As for your advice, thanks, but no thanks. We have been around the block, most of us, and do not need your neophyte's idea of career planning.

 

[Ty Webb]

I apologize for any insensitive remarks. I really was just talking about technicalities, which I guess take on a different meaning when it is your own job.

I really do hope that something better does happen from this for ATA.

 

[FLB717]

Capt Seth,

While you have your views I have mine. If Airlines operated as if they had to make a profit and not as normal for years after the economy started it's fall under Pres Clinton, and we just took the oil as payment (not very nice) for Liberating a country (Iraq), then we would still have these isssues. Iraq is a very small producer of oil in the last few years in comparison to the world market. Other MiddleEast countries have increased output by large margins to makeup for Iraq. Oil is gaining in price because of the emerging market of both India and China. Supply and Demand, now how do you feel about ANWR?


Now back to your regularly scheduled forum in progress.

 

[Publishers]

Naturally it is management that fails. I agree. They are paid to play the game and win it. When they do not, the company fails. The investors and employees lose. Totall agree.

Stupid president was just re-elected so not so stupid.

ATA was always a fringe player trying to find a niche.

The point is the same, does not matter whose fault, that day is behind us and now where do we go from here.

 

[TWA Dude]

Here is an exerpt from the AWA MEC Chairman's message:

I have said before that there is a way for reasonable people to sit
down and make this integration work in a way that justly recognizes that
we are the acquiring airline and, as such, entitled to a greater benefit
than the ATA pilots. An integration that protects America West pilots’
career expectations and unequivocally provides America West pilots with
furlough protection while enabling a transition period to a
fully-integrated seniority list.

I'm not pleased with Captain Szmal's wording so I post this as a warning to my ATA colleagues. As I've written before, should a merger come to pass I'm in favor of an integration that is respectful and that doesn't grant a windfall to either side. Many will disagree with me as being too benevolent but that won't stop me from speaking out. My gut feeling is that those who share my views at AWA will be too quiet and defer to the louder stapling types. A great debate will ensue as to what constitutes sufficient protection for the AWA pilots and it will surely get ugly. I hate to say it but words of ill-will will also let fly (except from me).

Personally I consider it unlikely that AWA will be successful in a bid for all of ATA since we're needing to conserve our cash. I guess we'll know more in the coming weeks. Good luck, guys.

 

[CaptSeth]

Here is an exerpt from the AWA MEC Chairman's message:

I was wondering when this might come up.

 

[TriStar_drvr]

As I've written before, should a merger come to pass I'm in favor of an integration that is respectful and that doesn't grant a windfall to either side.

TWA Dude, thanks for for your kind view on seniority integration. I suspect that your viewpoint is held by a small minority of the pilots at AWA. To be honest, if the tables were turned, I doubt that the pilots at ATA would be any more inclined to offer a fair integration to the pilots of an acquired airline. It's just the nature of the business. We roll the dice with a company, and hope it can carry us to retirement. Sometimes we win, sometimes we don't.

I speak only for myself, but I'm not sure I'd want to be integrated into the list. To be resented by the original AWA (or any acquiring airline) pilots for the remainder of my career, would make for a pretty lousy work environment. Obviously, to hold onto the seat that I've worked so hard to earn, or the respectable paycheck that comes with it would be nice, but I'm not sure the pain would be worth it.

So, I'm prepared to start over again (one last time). I've sent out the resumes and apps to the handful of airlines hiring, for which I'd be willing to fly. Old acquaintances are being contacted for letters of recommendation, and I'll just have to see what happens.

I hold no grudge against the pilots of any carrier. For the time that I'm able to extend the offer, you are all welcome on my jumpseat. Although don't be suprised when I hit you with 20 questions if you fly for a carrier that's hiring pilots.

Brad

 

[TWA Dude]

TriStar_drvr:

You have a great attitude and it will help you live longer than those who go through mergers with eternal bitterness.

TWA Dude, thanks for for your kind view on seniority integration.

While I certainly think of myself as a kind person my proclivity for a fair integration isn't meant as a gift. I think it benefits everyone.

I speak only for myself, but I'm not sure I'd want to be integrated into the list. To be resented by the original AWA (or any acquiring airline) pilots for the remainder of my career, would make for a pretty lousy work environment.

Obviously you'll do what you feel is best for yourselft but I think you're being overly pessimistic. Despite the way it seems on these message boards most pilots are rational enough to not take out their grudges on fellow pilots (yes, even AA pilots). The post-integration quality of life may not be as bad as you fear. Take care.

 

[freightdogfred]

I stand by the prediction the international LCC is the next big thing, and the airline that capitalizes on it will reap rewards.

BTC

Uhh....yeah. Like Sir Freddie Laker and his Skytrain......While your'e standing by your prediction, I predict Mikelson will take ATA back to it's roots, non-sked charters.