AirTran to take ATA Employees with Deal

[Ty Webb]

Pickle -- don't forget our frag clause also talks about Routes as well as aircraft. And we all know MDW makes up more than 30% of our revenues. Just another brick in the wall.

I just really don't get where you guys are coming from. How would you guys respond if you bought our gate rights at BWI and PHL and DCA, and suddenly AirTran pilots were all over this board saying how we thought that we were entitled to ATA seniority numbers on that basis, and not a staple, either, but date of hire . . . .

I mean, come on.. . . . . We're not buying any of your airplanes. You guys aren't even parking the airplanes, and you will probably continue to fly these routes for a year or so, while your company finds other routes to deploy them on, which may or may not compete with AirTran's routes.

Also, you would have to resign your ATA number . . . what if ATA redeploys your airplane on other routes . . . . . are you still going to give up your ATA seniority then, and come to AirTran? Should we hold a spot for you? Would you like my number, while you make up your mind? This discussion is just ridiculous. Unless we buy some of your airplanes, it's a waste of time.

 

[Resume Writer]

One thing to remember about the gates; they are controlled by the city, not ATA. Who they go to is not for ATA to decide.

Whatever happens, it'll be interesting!

I agree with SWA Guy on this one. You bet the City of Chicago will have a say in what happens, since they are technically a creditor; probably in a higher position depending upon the amount of money owed, but after the aircraft lessors.

There will be HUGE political pressure to keep people employed in Chicago. But the positions are going to be the ground positions.

As for the pilots and flight crews, I would almost bet that there will be a "reapplication" for positions at Air Tran. Unless someone has a really bad record with ATA, they will most likely get hired, if the airplanes are acquired. The reasoning is simple; the crews are already trained on the a/c and that makes for a huge savings in training costs.

For those in the position of getting furloughed, I would suggest getting your materials into the other airlines that are hiring. This situation could work for or against you. There is a certain amount of sympathy that will come out of this, which means getting hired. Or, there could be the attitude that you are only applying with that airline because you lost your job to a furlough. Hard to predict what the attitude will be; but I think the chances are greater for sympathy.

With that being said, I am going to go out on a limb here. Please do not be upset that I say this. If I were in your position, I would have no bones about resigning a seniority number. I think ATA is going to come out a leaner airline, and the chances of the positions coming back anytime soon is not good. It took AWA pilots and FA's about 3-4 years to get their jobs back after the 1991 bankruptcy.

These are just my opinions. I might be way wrong here. I just want to see everyone get jobs; no matter where it is. Good luck to everyone and keep the faith.

Kathy

 

[mt2]

Ty -- Merely relating what our frag clause says. Like or not, that's what we negotiated and ATA agreed to.

 

[Ty Webb]

Ty -- Merely relating what our frag clause says. Like or not, that's what we negotiated and ATA agreed to.

Would we be happy to have ATA guys come work here? Absolutely.

Is this a merger? No, it's not. That is all I am trying to get across.

 

[Pickle]

Ty, you are right it is not a merger. BUT, the frag clause DOES reference routes as one of the things that, if transferred, require the pilots to go with them. I guess that we will all have to agree to disagree on this one.

As far as this ACMI wet lease goes, I compare it to this:

You are working in a rope factory. Your job is to make nooses. One day YOU are measured for a noose, they give you the specs (as you are the noose guy), and tell you to get crackin'.

 

[Ty Webb]

You are working in a rope factory. Your job is to make nooses. One day YOU are measured for a noose, they give you the specs (as you are the noose guy), and tell you to get crackin'.

Well, I can see why you might feel that way, but I would liken it more to them telling you, "Our nooses aren;t selling. We can make nooses for xxx company for a year and revise our business plan and come up with better nooses, or we can close the doors".

I know it must be terribly difficult to be in that position right now, and I know that as pilots, we all deserve better than this crap. That is why I have always been in favor of an industry union. SOmeday, it will have to happen, and it's things like this that will make it a necessity . . . but I'll be retired to some island by then (21 years 9 months, but who's counting?).

 

[CaptSeth]

. but I'll be retired to some island by then (21 years 9 months, but who's counting?).

May I suggest Rikers Island? It's lovely, I hear. Lots of sex, too....

 

[Ty Webb]

May I suggest Rikers Island? It's lovely, I hear. Lots of sex, too....

Not for me . . . . . . . but it looks good on you!



I'll be sure to rock the wings next time we depart LGA, so you'll know it's me.

 

[Jetjockey]

Not for me . . . . . . . but it looks good on you!



I'll be sure to rock the wings next time we depart LGA, so you'll know it's me.

I'm sure your passengers will enjoy that. Very professional.

 

[Ty Webb]

I'm sure your passengers will enjoy that. Very professional.

If you can't make the distinction between a message board and an actual flight, maybe you should log off and seek some psychological help.

 

[B6Busdriver]

I just really don't get where you guys are coming from. How would you guys respond if you bought our gate rights at BWI and PHL and DCA, and suddenly AirTran pilots were all over this board saying how we thought that we were entitled to ATA seniority numbers on that basis, and not a staple, either, but date of hire . . . .

I mean, come on.. . . . . We're not buying any of your airplanes. You guys aren't even parking the airplanes, and you will probably continue to fly these routes for a year or so, while your company finds other routes to deploy them on, which may or may not compete with AirTran's routes.

Also, you would have to resign your ATA number . . . what if ATA redeploys your airplane on other routes . . . . . are you still going to give up your ATA seniority then, and come to AirTran? Should we hold a spot for you? Would you like my number, while you make up your mind? This discussion is just ridiculous. Unless we buy some of your airplanes, it's a waste of time.

Here we go. Let the games begin. Let the mud fly(both sides). I'm glad I'll be on the sidelines for this one. Welcome to the jungle boys and girls. Try to play nicely and never forget you (we) are all along for the ride.

 

[atafan]

With this current deal I don't expect AirTran to merge the pilots list. It would be nice but I personally wouldn't want to live with the ill feelings that would mark the rest of my career at my new airline. A welcome aboard with some type of recognition of the years I served at ATA, some pay status, fenced position for a time period, etc., would be most appreciated. I would want to move past this and not be marked as "one of those".

If AirTran took actual airframes then I would want to try to negotiate more. In any case I would want to be treated fairly and not try to take advantage of anyone.

This is a fun discourse but I feel the final deal with ATA and some other entity is far from final. Some party could come out of the wood works that none of us are even thinking about, or SWA could just decide to be the 800 pound gorilla and finish this AirTran discussion all together.

The ATA pilot group is a very diverse collection of pilots that will complement any operation that we were part of. We are team players and anyone on this board would enjoy flying with us, I know I'm partial.

 

[AlbieF15]

FDX just hired one ATA guy, and I'm sure they'd love to have more of you. If you can give up the pax side of things I'd consider applying to us as we seem to be in an expansion mode. You L011 guys and charter types who love Intl ops could very soon be doing the same thing again in an MD11 or A300. If we really are adding 20 planes or so this year (and it appears we are) at least a few of you might not have to worry about mergers, but might instead join our team. Its only $50, and you now have at least one (and likely soon to be more) former co-workers here to help network, so give it a shot.

 

[max motoring]

Note to ATA guys: (from a "note to self" reminder)

Get out now, AMR sold us TWA pilots the same line of "do the right thing" raa-raa-bull, you'll be on the street in two years, tops...

Sincerely hoping the best for the ATA pilots.

 

[IAHERJ]

ATAFan has a good point. I can see a rational for taking the ATA guys in some sort of seniority order at AirTran should the deal go through. If I was in a position at AirTran to make these kind of decisions, I would put fourth the following:



Get a firm # from George as to how many pilots will be furloughed with the MDW pulldown.

Offer those pilots the choice of going to AirTran in seniority order. AirTran will grow and train pilots at the same pace ATA will furlough. Those furloughed first at ATA will be trained first at AirTran on either 717 or 737. Those senior ATA pilots in the (to be) furloughed group can stay on the -800 at TZ as long as they can and then come over to AirTran with their protected seniority #. Should a senior (to be ) furloughed pilot chose to come to AirTran sooner, he or she will have that right. Post the training schedule monthly in ATA crew room and offer all (to be ) furloughed ATA pilots a monthly bid to come over to an AirTran training class.

I know this is not perfect but it would offer the ATA pilots some recognition of seniority for time served at ATA. Hopefully, there would be no significant gap in employment for any ATA pilot during the MDW phase out of TZ. The two airlines should offer monthly minimum (70 hours) for any gap between training at AirTran and subsequent furlough from ATA. ATA pilots should retain their current hourly rate until AirTran pay catches up with the current ATA hourly pay for the pilots transitioned to AAI. However the AirTran contract would be the contract in control (minus the hourly rate for those TZ pilots) for the ATA pilots. This might make the transition a bit easier for the ATA pilots and would be a minimal cost for AirTran as the first officer rates at AirTran and ATA are currently pretty close to the same. You would have ATA guys on 2nd year pay in their first year at AirTran, that's all.



Any thoughts?

 

[Resume Writer]

FDX just hired one ATA guy, and I'm sure they'd love to have more of you. If you can give up the pax side of things I'd consider applying to us as we seem to be in an expansion mode. You L011 guys and charter types who love Intl ops could very soon be doing the same thing again in an MD11 or A300. If we really are adding 20 planes or so this year (and it appears we are) at least a few of you might not have to worry about mergers, but might instead join our team. Its only $50, and you now have at least one (and likely soon to be more) former co-workers here to help network, so give it a shot.

But passengers are so fun!

Seriously though, I have to agree with Aaron on this one. Go with a proven entity. UPS and FDX are both hiring.

Kathy

 

[eagleatr]

It came out in the Indy Star that GM says the remaining ATA Airline will be 1/3 to 1/2 it's current size. That would certainly trigger the fragmentation clause in the contract. However, I don't think Airtran will be the only bidder before this is over.

 

[CSY Mon]

AMR sold us TWA pilots the same line of "do the right thing" raa-raa-bull,

Poor little TWA pilots...Victims again.

Try to sue somebody...yer own union perhaps...

 

[AA717driver]

Guys, I hate to say it but your frag clause isn't worth the paper it's written on. It will either be negotiated away or 1113'd in the BK court.

If the creditors even get a whiff that you might dig in your heels they will blow you away(1113) before you know what hit you.

Also, before you start getting all warm and fuzzy, read CSY's response to the max motoring. THAT's how things will end up. The days of amicable marriages is over. Unfortunately.

I'm sorry, but the court doesn't give a **** about the employees. If the primary creditor's committee indicates that the employees should be considered, the judge CAN then consider them. If they specifically exclude the employees from a transfer of assets, the judge CANNOT(under any circumstances) force the issue.

In Bankruptcy Court, the primary creditor's committee calls the shots. The judge hears and considers objections by the subordinate creditor's committees and interested parties. But, the primary creditor's committee is the lead sled dog and we all know what the others get to look at...

Kathy--Even though ATA's crews are well trained and highly experienced, it kind of becomes irrelevent if the acquiring company feels that ATA's culture won't match up with theirs. Let's hope that doesn't happen.

Good luck, all.TC

 

[AFcitrus]

We were given some rumor control questions and answers from our pilot's association the other day and here is a synopsis:

-The only assets that will be bought from ATA will be ground equipment
-The gates will be leased from the city of Chicago
-Rampers and other ground personnel will be hired however NO pilots or F/A's will be added to AirTran's senority lists.
-No airplanes will be purchased

Also, our pilots have officially signed a letter of agreement with the company to allow ATA sub-service for more than six months, however the company hopes to minimize such service. The sooner we replace the -800's with 717's and 737-700's the sooner we will start making money on those routes.

In my opinion AirTran will give ATA pilot's some sort of preferrential interview status. But that's just my opinion and carries no merit whatsoever.