AirTran "Military Equivalent"

[atpcliff]

Hi!

What is "Military Equivalent" for AirTran (towards the 500 PIC 121/military equivalent requirement).

Does C-5/-141/-130/-9 (multiple crewmembers) PIC time count?
Does F-15E/F-14/T-38 IP (two crew members) PIC count?
DOes F-16/A-10/F-18 (only 1 crew) PIC count?
Does OH-58 PIC (mil helo, only 1 crew) PIC count?
Does MH-53 (mil helo, a lot of crewmembers) PIC count?

I'd like to know.

Thanks a Ton!

Cliff
DTW

 

[golfc5pilot]

Looking at the application you will fill out if you are called to interview, they break down flight time into two grids.

One grid is PIC, SIC, Captain, and Instructor against Single engine, Multi-engine, and Total

The second grid is PIC, SIC, Captain, and Instructor broken down by aircraft type and hours in each.

I would say you have some military equivalent PIC in the airplanes only requiring one pilot (T-37, T-38) and some military PIC in the crew airplanes (KC-135)

I would only interpret military equivalent "Captain" time in a crew airplane such as the KC-135 as an aircraft commander.

Now the mins required by AirTran state fixed wing for 2500TT and 1000 multi. For PIC they say 121 or military equivalent. They don't specifically say this is fixed wing time. However, I think they are looking for fixed wing time in the "military equivalent". They don't have rotary wing time anywhere on their section on "pilot time and aircraft experience"

They are not real clear on what they want for flight times, but obviously they want certain minimums. I wish you good luck and I hope this doesn't kick off another round of flaming like the similar thread in here over the last week.

 

[FLB717]

If you are the "Aircraft Commander" either with one crew member (you), or more than one (multi crew) that is Mil PIC equivalent.

 

[IP076]

Now, here's my question.... shoot if you wish...

Why not count 135? Is someone who flies PICin a Lear in an airline crew environment 7 hours a night 4 nights a week not qualified?

Just curious. I'd be willing to bet that there are some FOs at Airtran that do not have 500 hrs of 121 PIC time.

 

[Swerpipe]

Part 135

IP076,

According to the people at Airtran, Part 135 experience is not as suitable for their operations as part 121 or military. Many have pointed out that in these tough competitive times it's their prerogative to hire who they choose and how they choose them. Which is true. Many have said that their experience with training have made them rule out Part 135 as a source of pilots (I seriously doubt that BTW).
As a dedicated Part 135, I smile at statements like that but at the same time, I am turned off at working for an airline with such an ignorant and foolish attitude. That environment leads to a certain type of pilot culture which in my mind will be far inferior to other airlines with much broader perspectives. As pilots, we teach and learn from our peers and Airtran, unfortunately, has decided to eliminate a very important source for pilots.

 

[FLB717]

You are correct some current FO’s don’t have the 121 PIC that AAI is now asking for. But that was a different hiring cycle. I’m not trying to debate it, but that is the facts. Are some 135 operators good pilots, you bet without a doubt. But having flown 135, a lot. I can tell you that the way 135 is flown vs. 121 is different. that is my opinion but I would think many 135 to 121 guys would agree. It may not make youl happy, but those with the jobs hire those they wish. AAI currently has over 4000+ resumes of current requested qualification ready applicants, for 150-200 jobs. It’s a bitch just to get the interview let alone hired with multiple thousands of hours in 121 heavy jet time. If you have 1000 hours PIC (?) Turbine apply to SWA and buy the type if hired. Good luck no matter what.

 

[Swerpipe]

Are some 135 operators good pilots, you bet without a doubt. But having flown 135, a lot. I can tell you that the way 135 is flown vs. 121 is different. that is my opinion but I would think many 135 to 121 guys would agree.

FLB717, the way part 135 and part 121 is flown is different, I agree, and how about the military guys, is that just like part 121 in your opinion? I accept AAI 's policy but tell me how is military flying so much closer to AAI than Part 135. I really don't get your point. You are trying to make logic out of something that is not. They are just not interested in hiring part 135 drivers because they think they can afford not too. They could have decided the same about military folks but probably they would face a lot harsher criticism if they did. That's all. BTW, no criticizing you it's just a policy that I find stupid.

 

[Snoopy58]

Haven't flown -135, so no comment there, but -121 flying and military flying have a WORLD of differences. For starters, as the mission priority goes up (routine training, major exercise, contingency, wartime, etc), the level of acceptable risk goes up, mainly because the cost to aborting the mission rises. In -121 flying, the standard for accepted risk doesn't really vary, and as a result a lot of things that are left to somebody's discretion & judgement in the military (aircraft commander, squadron commander, wing CC, higher level waivers, etc) are spelled out for the airline guy.

Also, it's uncommon in the military to find anybody doing 4-8 legs in a day to as many different airports in anything heavier than a C-21. In -121 ops, that's standard.

For the military, YOU are your own dispatcher. You get a frag and maybe a computer flightplan handed to you, but not nearly to the extent that everything has been prepared for the airline flight. That's related to the above point, of course; flight planning 8 legs in a day would be next to impossible along with flying them.

 

[atpcliff]

Hi FLB717!

I think I know the answer, but I still haven’t heard for sure from any source.

I was a mil. Aircraft commander, with a crew of between 2-5 (usually 2).

It was all helicopter time.

I assume that this time does NOT meet AirTran’s 121 or “Military Equivalent” requirement because it was in a helicopter.

Thanx for your answers

Cliff
DTW

PS-Snoopy58:I have had a number of missions in the KC-135 where we were handed everything we needed before the flight, 45” before T.O. for our 6 hr. mission. This is very similar to 121 ops.

PPS-I now fly –135 but it’s for a –121 airline (it’s a little complicated). We walk into dispatch, get our flight release with our alternate (we ALWAYS have one), weather, notams, etc. Some of the flights requested from our company we (the pilots) don’t even find out about, because our Dispatchers turn them down as unsuitable/unsafe for our aircraft. It’s probably as close to –121 flying as you can get and still technically be –135. If we have a problem with our flightplan we call dispatch, they fix it and set it up with ATC-we then call ATC back and it’s all set up for us, just like –121.

 

[crosscut]

It is unfortunate that we’ve excluded a certain group based exclusively on their type of flying. I’ve seen (& flown with) just as many super sharp 135 people as I have seen some quality military guys. It is one thing to conform to one’s employer’s hiring “mood swings,” it is another to do it at the expense of common sense. As for being apprehensive about “harsher criticism” for not hiring military, I doubt that’s their concern. It’s just that most of the “ones” doing the hiring have military backgrounds and, as a result, this “strategy” has slowly become a policy.

 

[Swerpipe]

Part 135 environment

Snoop&crosscut,

By all means, I would never suggest any type of flying is better than another. As pilots, we adapt and fullfil our mission no matter what it is. In the 135 World we are the dispatchers, ramp agents, caterers, flight attendents, pilots, company representatives, janitors, aircraft cleaners, etc...We do multiple legs a day out of Class B,C,D,G airports. When we have problems we consult the company and even the customer (after all they pay $1000-$5000 per seat for the flight and we fly to serve them specifically) .
To complete a mission and do it well takes a lot of crew coordination and teamwork, after all we go to new and unfamiliar airports all the time serving a large variety of customers.
One thing in common: they expect a lot more from us than they would expect from an airline, that's why they pay so much more...
The suggestion that any particular part 121 operation will be above our head (the part 135 pilot group) is ridiculous. I don't mind if I hear that management want to hire exclusively from the regional carriers but when I hear that Part 121 flying is so much more difficult/safe/different/challenging/professional than what we do that's when they loose credibility. Of course they could never say they are biased against a certain pilot group since some of the current pilot group come from that background. I don't care to work for Airtran but it seems foolish that because you cater to the wealthy you would not be considered at Airtran.

 

[IP076]

Hey, thanks for the thoughts there..

I figured a little of everything played in there... I was just curious what everyone else thought...

I'm also not going to claim a 121 pilot is better than a 135 guy or vice versa...

Basically it all boils down to Economics 101... Supply & Demand, and unfortunately for us, there is a very large supply of pilots and a rather small demand for them.

 

[Ty Webb]

Re: Part 135 environment

I was a strictly 91/135 jet guy who was hired at Airtran and have flown here for the past few years. . . . so I feel pretty qualified to answer this one.

I think that the reasons that they favor 121 guys over 135 is twofold:

1) In the past, they hired some 91/135 lemons; probably because the interviewers were mostly ex-mil and/or career airline guys who didn't know the nuances of screening corporate guys. It would be like me (no military experience) trying to screen milspec applicants. As a result, they got a number of guys who looked good on paper and cleaned up nice, but didn't hack it in the Airtran training environment, which is pretty harsh, if you ask anyone who has been through it.

2) AirTran has had a quick upgrade . . . sometimes just over a year. In that short period of time, they have to get you knowlegeable on the airplane, the company's operating procedures, 121 regs, and comfortable enough with the above to be able to function safely and efficiently in AirTran's "quick-turn" system. They seem to feel that if a guy has already done this as a PIC for another airline, they are just that much closer to being ready for upgrade to start with.

I do not like the requirement, but I think that you are misunderstanding the reasoning behind it.

 

[FLB717]

TY,
well said

 

[LJDRVR]

Ty brings up some valid points. If excluded, it's tempting to take this personally and feel insulted, but you shouldn't. This all comes down to comments that a certain leader at AirTran has made concerning their individual preferences for people who made the same choices he did. Guess what? He can do whatever he wants. I am sad as it shoots my boat out of the water, not to mention I do feel sorry for the AT crew force who are now depreived of a whole variety of people. (Miltary single-seat, 135, corporate, engineering and flight test, air tanker and others...)

Those who feel their 121 background honestly does make them better aviators than those of us who made different career choices, are simply projecting a natural human belief that since they were successful, the choices they made must have been the best ones. There's more than one way to skin a cat. More qualified in the eyes of an employer does not equal better aviator. What I'm trying to say is don't believe your own press guys. (Nobody on this thread has made any such insuations, but there are those out there.)

Hopefully this policy will change. An operation is safer and more fun if you have all types of folks, and I would enjoy working at Air Tran. Y'all do have a great product.