Airtran Insurance question

[IdRtherBsailing]

That's because the company is paying roughly 60% (supposedly) of our premiums.

That is exactly what I am saying. That is pretty bad. I mean at my last job we all threw a fit when the company went from paying 85% to 75%. 60 is too low. Couldn't your pilots bargain with say 1% of the pension plan. Give back 1% and increase what they spend on premiums. I am sorry but that is way below the national average. Thanks for the clarification by the way.

 

[CitationLover]

That is exactly what I am saying. That is pretty bad. I mean at my last job we all threw a fit when the company went from paying 85% to 75%. 60 is too low. Couldn't your pilots bargain with say 1% of the pension plan. Give back 1% and increase what they spend on premiums. I am sorry but that is way below the national average. Thanks for the clarification by the way.

there is a company that has a product called Benefit Index that compares the "value" of your benefits to a peer group, the client chooses the peers. it is called benefit index and it will tell you exactly where you stand in terms of benefits, etc. it measures:

Vacation
STD
LTD
Health/Medical
Pension
Savings
and more

http://www.hewittassociates.com/Intl/NA/en-US/OurServices/ServiceTool.aspx?cid=2255

it costs about $15,000 and would be a nice tool to use during contract negotiations. this is what the company uses against you in negotiating an "average" benefits plan.

 

[Lear70]

CL, that's what we pay ALPA's EF&A department for, and they have provided that information. No, I didn't get to look at those numbers and even if I had, I couldn't discuss it without release from my confidentiality agreement, but the NPA has that data.

My personal opinion, not having seen the data, is that our contract overall places us about 1/3 from the bottom of the major airline pack in terms of overall compensation. Being the highest-paid 717/DC-9 Captains and the 10.5% B-fund plus eventual 2% 401(k) match helps bring up our compensation package with bottom-of-the-barrel F/O rates and medical insurance. Believe it or not, our health insurance isn't the highest of the majors - it's actually lower than one or two, although it IS higher than most...

As far as giving up any of the new 401(k) match to get lower premiums, the company won't even discuss it, but our NC wouldn't try that anyway.

We have a problem here at AirTran discussed in the road shows with junior pilots contributing to their 401(k). We don't make enough to have the extra cash so almost none of us do in our 2nd and 3rd year, not to mention that guys have been so close to upgrade they just figure instead of putting 1-2% in, they'll just make it up next year when they upgrade.

That's causing a LOT of senior CA's who are maxing out their 401(k) to get a check back in the mail at the end of the year, taken OUT of their 401(k) then taxed at 40+% because this work group has failed one of the IRS tests, I believe it's called the "high-low" test which requires a more even split of participation.

What does this mean? It means the 401(k) match wasn't bargained to benefit the new guy; it was bargained for so the junior pilots would have an incentive to contribute so that the pilots maxing out their 401(k) wouldn't get smacked with a year-end penalty. Not saying I wouldn't contribute as an F/O - I would, up to their match percentage, but it's not a benevolent contract increase and isn't worth that much in terms of actual money cost to the company at our current participation levels.

The company doesn't want to touch our insurance premiums because the other employee groups would want the same new rates as well and it opens up a bigger can of worms with the company's motto that "No employee group is more important than any other."

Incidentally, I agree with you that 60% is way too low. My last carrier was $120 a month for the equivalent of our Gold PPO plan at AAI that would cost me over $600 a month.

Luckily, I'm on my wife's health insurance which, amusingly enough is THE SAME company and plan that our Bronze HMO provides - Aetna. Except we pay $160 through her company, here it would be nearly double that.

 

[CitationLover]

the test is nondiscrimination testing. if the HCE (highly compensated ees are ones making over $90k/yr) average accrual rate (ie how much you defer) has to be within 125% of the NHCE (Non HCE). the giveback is simply the amount of money needed to be at 125% then ratioed by the respective HCE contribution amount.

ALPA's EF&A simply compares the plan's values amongst it's members, Hewitt's actually costs out changes and compares the costs (I doubt ALPA knows anything about costing out a medical plan, disability plan, pensions, etc).

the junior pilots who aren't contributing are simply dumb. tell them to talk to a financial adviser and see which is better: some schmoe who contributes 10% for 10 years early in their career, or someone who contributes the max the last 25 years of their career.

 

[Lear70]

Excellent summary on the high-low test, thanks.

ALPA's EF&A simply compares the plan's values amongst it's members, Hewitt's actually costs out changes and compares the costs (I doubt ALPA knows anything about costing out a medical plan, disability plan, pensions, etc).

I doubt it, but I'll let PCL or one of the other guys more experienced with ALPA National explain it; I'm sure he'll do a much better job.

the junior pilots who aren't contributing are simply dumb. tell them to talk to a financial adviser and see which is better: some schmoe who contributes 10% for 10 years early in their career, or someone who contributes the max the last 25 years of their career.

Thanks. That would include me. I guess I've been called worse than "dumb", though...

I contributed at my last carrier because I could afford it making $70-80k a year. Here I couldn't first year - actually used most of my savings simply trying to survive on $3,000 a month with a family of four.

I can this year, but haven't because there's really no incentive. No match from the company, they're already giving me 10.5% without me spending a dime, and I'm actually enjoying breaking even every month taking home $3,400. Doesn't help to contribute 10% if I have to rob it from my savings to pay the bills, now does it? Or would that be "dumb", too?

This is why it's so important to get F/O rates about 15-20% higher than they already are... you can't ask a guy to contribute to his 401(k) if he can't pay a $1,000 mortgage, $300 in health insurance (HMO), a $250 car payment, a student loan, plus all the other daily living expenses like car insurance, gas, utilities, groceries, etc.

 

[CitationLover]

sorry, personal savings is a little soap box topic for me....

the point is you're getting 10% from somewhere. but sooner or later you will see that age 60/65 is fast approaching and starting earlier is much better than starting faster later, simple mathematical fact. the 10% though is only yours after 5 years correct (ie your 100% vested at 5 years)? i wouldn't count on this until that point.

if you cannot afford 10% pretax savings, then perhaps you are living slightly above your means. your wife appears to be working also from prior posts. talk to a financial planner, they'll happily talk to you for free and try to sell you something, but see the hard facts they will show.

you obviously made it on first year airtran pay. the bump to second year pay could at least put some in some sort of independent savings (401(k), investment account, something).

our country has placed such an emphasis on college combined with the fact of a federal government willy nilly anyone can get a college loan program has only lead to increasing and increasing college costs. student loans are simply driving people in such a hole these days that they can never get out. my $0.02.

 

[PCL_128]

I doubt ALPA knows anything about costing out a medical plan, disability plan, pensions, etc

Incorrect. That's exactly what ALPA's E & FA department is for. They have a team of actuaries that's top notch in doing exactly the kind of calculations that you're referring to. Many airline managements have even contracted these services through the ALPA Services Division (the same division that the NPA goes through) because they are so well respected throughout the industry. Whether it's medical, disability, pension, 401k, work rule adjustments, etc..., ALPA's team of actuaries knows exactly how to calculate the actual dollar amount and the change from the current book.

 

[Lear70]

if you cannot afford 10% pretax savings, then perhaps you are living slightly above your means.

Hmmm, nope. Not really. Do you have kids? They're expensive.

Been through all this with a financial planner and there's absolutely ZERO way to squeeze any extra money out of the budget and we live in a 2,100 sq ft $170k house and have one car paid off (2000 Audi) and my truck payment (2002 Dodge 1500 for $12,000 at $250 a month), zero credit card debt.

Or, more specifically, we could, but it would mean absolutely NEVER EVER going out to dinner and a movie, NEVER taking a vacation, and not buying ANY Christmas for anyone. Including the kids.

I'm sorry, I refuse to live like that. You never know when you're going to check out, and I'm going to at least enjoy my life. That means going once or twice a year to the beach, going out once every week or two for a nice dinner and a movie with the wife, taking the kids bowling, etc.

your wife appears to be working also from prior posts. talk to a financial planner, they'll happily talk to you for free and try to sell you something, but see the hard facts they will show.

Yes, she does. She has no degree and just covers her own expenses including the $600 a month for childcare for an infant. We've actually toyed with the idea of her staying home because of it...

I've seen the "hard facts", and even THEY couldn't see a way to make it work on last year's salary.

you obviously made it on first year airtran pay.

Yeah, but I think you missed the point where I was ROBBING MY SAVINGS to do it, taking $300 to $400 a month out to pay the bills.

the bump to second year pay could at least put some in some sort of independent savings (401(k), investment account, something).

It could, probably around $100 a month, but the election came while I was still on 1st year pay during open enrollment. Will elect into it this November again.

our country has placed such an emphasis on college combined with the fact of a federal government willy nilly anyone can get a college loan program has only lead to increasing and increasing college costs. student loans are simply driving people in such a hole these days that they can never get out. my $0.02.

Must be a nice glass house you're living in. How did you get your degree? Do you have one? How did you pay for it?

Unless you're a stripper, working full-time while taking 18-21 hours of college credit a semester barely pays for your housing, food, and books. MAYBE some of your tuition if you're in a state school, and sure as hell doesn't pay for flight lessons.

A student loan is a vital necessity unless Mommy and Daddy are paying for college. Maybe not to the extent where you live off them and get out of college $150,000 in debt, but having $20k in student loans with all your ratings and a 4-year degree with a $150 a month payment isn't going to put anyone "in the hole".

 

[CitationLover]

Incorrect. That's exactly what ALPA's E & FA department is for. They have a team of actuaries that's top notch in doing exactly the kind of calculations that you're referring to. Many airline managements have even contracted these services through the ALPA Services Division (the same division that the NPA goes through) because they are so well respected throughout the industry. Whether it's medical, disability, pension, 401k, work rule adjustments, etc..., ALPA's team of actuaries knows exactly how to calculate the actual dollar amount and the change from the current book.

you're right. one of the world's largest employee benefits consulting firm wouldn't have the expertise that ALPA has in this matter....

 

[PCL_128]

you're right. one of the world's largest employee benefits consulting firm wouldn't have the expertise that ALPA has in this matter....

Oh, I'm not saying that they couldn't do it. I'm sure they're great at what they do. I just don't see the need when we already have a services agreement with an organization that is perfectly capable of doing the job.

 

[CitationLover]

Hmmm, nope. Not really. Do you have kids? They're expensive.

i do in fact.

Must be a nice glass house you're living in. How did you get your degree? Do you have one? How did you pay for it?

i paid for it myself thank you. worked during school, co-op'd as an engineering student, had some loans. i didn't major in "aviation science" or whatever riddle sells as an "education", rather a practical mathematics degree that got me a nice paying job right out of college to pay off my debt.

Unless you're a stripper, working full-time while taking 18-21 hours of college credit a semester barely pays for your housing, food, and books. MAYBE some of your tuition if you're in a state school, and sure as hell doesn't pay for flight lessons.

A student loan is a vital necessity unless Mommy and Daddy are paying for college. Maybe not to the extent where you live off them and get out of college $150,000 in debt, but having $20k in student loans with all your ratings and a 4-year degree with a $150 a month payment isn't going to put anyone "in the hole".

you just proved my point. going to school with $150,000 in debt to get a job making $30,000/yr is pretty unreasonable. paying $80,000 to comair, flight safety, etc to obtain a job in this industry is flat out insane.

look i did not mean for this to come out the way it did. the important thing is to save as much as you can as early as you can. the trap of living paycheck to paycheck is when the next raise comes, the lifestyle simply changes and you're still paycheck to paycheck.

good luck to you. frankly health care, depending on the upcoming election, may be the least of your worries with regards to the TA.

 

[CitationLover]

Oh, I'm not saying that they couldn't do it. I'm sure they're great at what they do. I just don't see the need when we already have a services agreement with an organization that is perfectly capable of doing the job.

the difference is one company deals with 1,000+ companies and how their benefits are structured versus one that uses 50+ airlines only. benefits is a subsection of ALPA's evaluation team versus all an employee does and works with at hewitt. also it is nice to get another fresh perspective every now and then.

i guess my philosophy is, if ALPA could cost out airlines well enough then there would be ALPA airlines flying the friendly skies.

my $0.02, worth a lot less than that.

 

[Lear70]

CL, I agree with you that $150k in debt for an ERAU aviation degree is foolish. My point was that flying is expensive, and getting your ratings plus full-time college classes is going to cost more than any 18-21 year old could hope to make during that same period in order to pay cash; that's why student loans exist, and I don't think calling them "evil" is fair.

Glad you were able to get out with a degree and are enjoying kids - they're an absolute blast but, like I said, they're expensive and I married a girl who is just about maxed out on whatever she will make with her existing education unless she goes back to school, so it is what it is.

As far as having more to worry about than health care with the recall/election coming up, why do you say that?

 

[CitationLover]

As far as having more to worry about than health care with the recall/election coming up, why do you say that?

i was speaking of the presidential (US of A) election and not the recall election.

well it seems to me if a democrat gets in the office the health care system in this country is going to change somehow (i highly doubt universal coverage, but some things will change).

that being said, i wouldn't want to concede something for better health care when health care as we know it will change in 2-3 years.

 

[Lear70]

OIC.

I don't think that health care is a "given" with any presidential candidate in office and I certainly don't know if it will happen that quickly.

A lot of candidates have campaigned on health care reform, and look at where we are now...

Should we give up a major bargaining chip for it? Maybe. Depends on the chip. I'd have traded the Twome grievance (reserve pay system) for a 50% reduction in healthcare premiums across all the plans (savings of $200-600 a month), but that's just my personal opinion,,, something everyone benefits by.

OK... waiting for the reserve guys to start stoning me.

 

[PCL_128]

OK... waiting for the reserve guys to start stoning me.

Actually, I'd take that too. The current reserve pay system is wonderful, but those insurance premiums are killer, even for a single guy like myself. All 1600 pilots would benefit from a reduction in the premiums, while only a small group currently benefits from the reserve pay system.

 

[Lear70]

Yeah, that was the thought...

 

[DASHDRIVER]

Didn't I just see Airtran post a 41m quarterly profit? Why not just demand better coverage with not giving anything back? If they keep preaching industry average, make it average.