AirTran/ATA Military Conversion Factor?

[T-Bags]

Ty, trust me, I'd NEVER ask you for a favor and with >5000 multi turbine, don't think I'd need to. But must be a typo huh? says a lot about a company when they handle things as important as pilot recruitment with such a lack of attention to detail. guess that alloow guys of your ilk to slip in. not the kind of place I've ever or will ever apply to.

 

[Ty Webb]

That's great, Bags. I'd never apply to a place that until recently would hire pilots with 350tt as long as they could check a box, so I guess we don't have to ever worry about working together.

FWIW, I would rather work for a company that made an occaisional typo, than one that had to file bankruptcy and turn 2000 pilots out on the street.

Have a nice life . . . .Still waiting to hear when you're going to cough up a few bucks to support this site.

 

[Russ]

Wanting to remain out of the furball but curious about something I read here, hold your fire.

One of the posters said he thought a type rating would help (737) even though no time in it (my assumption) beyond that needed to get the type. I wonder if the interviewer perceives someone really wanting to fly for SWA. Not often someone gets the 73 type unless targeting SWA. I could almost see it as a liability in some instances at an interview, both from having to answer tech questions about an aircraft you have min exposure to and from the would be shrinks in HR. Anyone seen evidence of this, or opinions otherwise?

 

[T-Bags]

"Not often someone gets the 73 type unless targeting SWA. I could almost see it as a liability in some instances at an interview, both from having to answer tech questions about an aircraft you have min exposure to and from the would be shrinks in HR. Anyone seen evidence of this, or opinions otherwise?"

Tell them you wanted to further your aviation career, and since not many folks are selling 717 types, you did the next best thing getting the 737 type (aren't they buying them?). I think a realistic HR individual would realive that although you may have favorites, you won't sit around and wait for one airline. You are a professional and you are willing to put your money where your mouth is and earn additional ratings/qualifications. I just don't see that as a negative, and who knows, maybe SWA will call.

 

[FLB717]

TBag

If you think that only a military pilot could fly a V1 cut or do multiple circuts, fly with no AP or FO, did you fly civilian? BOTH Mil and Civ pilots have to be real pilots to be hired any place. We have guys who have never flown a twin in th Mil or Civ side, all that they flew was F16's, so your theory has holes.

You wonder how Ty or myself or others seem to those who read this forum? What about YOUR comments, how does that reflect on UAL? Talk about a glass house thier sparky. And what are your current 737-700 (or similar) rates, oh yeah real close to OURS. So get off the low pay crap. Well at least you admitted your a jerk.

 

[T-Bags]

"If you think that only a military pilot could fly a V1 cut or do multiple circuts, fly with no AP or FO, did you fly civilian?"

Well there goes Ty's theory tht you have to be able to read and understand english to get hired at AT...

RTFP. The ENTIRE point was not that a military aviator is "superior" in any way (except in his ability to read an understand english...), but that his "experience" level per flight hour just may be above the typical pilot. Did Comair (where you "paid for training"...) give you a jet a couple times a month with the instruction to "beat up the pattern", do practice approaches, and practice engine out work? How about AT? Was there a REQUIREMENT that you do a certain number of these procedures a month? There was for those guys, and it SHOULD be recognized by those hiring IMHO, but it's your company, and if you don't put a premium on experience and training, I guess thats your problem.... Keeps pilot turnover low.

"We have guys who have never flown a twin in th Mil or Civ side, all that they flew was F16's, so your theory has holes."
Not my "theory", it's YOUR WEBSITE. Apparently when your neighbor built you the shortcut for this website, he forgot to make you one to AT. Go to the top of your browser and type www.airtrash, I mean airtran.com. follow the links. Never mind, you won't be able to figure it out, so here's the link. http://www.airtran.com/aboutus/employ/pilot.jsp

Do you think it's possible that the minimums have changed at some point? Heck, at one point, it seemed you had to have "demonstrated company (eal) loyalty during trying times...."

"And what are your current 737-700 (or similar) rates, oh yeah real close to OURS."

No. They aren't. You statement illustrates your ignorance with regard to the value of the entire package. benefit packages (to include retirement) are hugely expenses, and MUST be considered as part of the equation, unless you don't plan on being there at retirement....

 

[FLB717]

Les,
You have your thoughts on the Mil issue, do I think some conversion should be made for guys like you? Yeah maybe some. Do I think one type of pilots is better than the other, no. If you or anyone (TBag) tell me that only a Mil pilots does lots of training then that person has never flown as a Civ Instructor or Night Frieght etc. If you have not then you are not qualified to comment on the Civ side, maybe you are. Some would like to know your level of experience to understand if you know what you know or if your just some 14 year old with MSFS 2000. More than just Ty and myslef have asked you your background, other than your statement that you flew Mil and now are a airline pilot you say nothing. Have some stones man, Im not going to stoop to the level of TBag and make some slure on your airlines name or its pilots.

TBag,
Better check your own spelling there bud. So now all Comair guys are PFT, and so some form of looser.? I quess by your reasoning they are unqaulified to fly a jet. I can promise you I did not PFT. Those who did, that is thier choice. No Comair didnt give us an airplane to do circuts all day on taxpayer money. We did it all day on passenger money. We also did sim checks for V1 cuts, you ever do one, yes so whats the point? At AT, we like every other airline had to be able to fly before we got hired, I sure UAL needed even basic abilities from even you. Last I checked the UAL AFund was dead and the BFund alive. Could I be wrong, Im sure you will tell me. Your 737-700 rates are only slightly higher. Heck tell what they are currently. Is it more sure, but not by a great deal. Just be happy you have recall rights vs nothing. You dont like AT or maybe others, dont apply and be happy about it, I will. You want to tell all here that we are destroying the Industry, but our rates are slightly higher than othe LCC and only slightly lower than yours and AA. If you think your company, mine or anyone elses can have a a safe future keep then your head in the sand, and good luck. Any way this thread is less than informative.

 

[FDJ2]

We have guys who have never flown a twin in th Mil or Civ side, all that they flew was F16's, so your theory has holes.

FLB717, one small point, in order to get to that F-16 that pilot had to fly T-37s and T-38s, both of which I believe are twin engine jets.

Back to the subject matter of the thread. This has nothing to do with who is a better pilot or not, it has to do with converting military flight time to civilian flight time. When I got out of the Navy I only had about 2,000 hours, but I had flown over 1,400 sorties. Since military flight time reflects take-off to landing as opposed to block to block, I added .2 hours to each sortie to make up for the difference when I transfered my military time into my civilian logbook. On the inside front cover of my logbook I attached my conversion formula, along with my justification, and on which aircraft it was applicable as well as how much time was added to each airframe. As long as you are not trying to misrepresent yourself you should be fine. Don't adjust your logbook for any one particular employer, because you might have multiple interviews throughout your career. If a potential employer doesn't want see a conversion factor, it can easily be subtracted, if they do, there it is. Most employers understand the difference.

 

[FLB717]

FDJ2,
Thanks for the point. I think your method sounds like a winner. You are covered either way.

I put a call into HR for info on this subject to keep the BS factor in check and find out for sure. The point is every company has the ability and right to put what ever mins they want. If a person wants to apply for a particular company it is thier responsability to meet that companies mins, not the other way around.

 

[Astra Guy]

Gosh,

Before I found flightinfo.com I had no idea there was so much animosity between 121 types. I guess I have been too busy working in my own little but expanding world....flying around the country.

The economic situation even prior to 9/11 surely put a speed bump in many commercial careers. This, from what I have been told, is pretty much a ten year cyclical thing. The economy is more than ever before a supply and demand model.

I can tell you as an occasional pax in the back the conditions are similar to flying Thai Airways in the 70s on their turbo props. Gone are the days of having four seats across the fuselage or having more than nine inches of leg room. Prior to the recession all the carriers were cramming us in like sardines. With that in mind why in the world should we spend a $1 more to fly on ABC vs XYZ.

The LCC carriers will rule because none of the beheomoths have figured out that it will take some increased level of comfort, some increased level of service and more than foil wrapped pretzels for the flying public to splurge for the higher rates they charge. Brand loyalty may come with increases in these areas of comfort, service and pretzel count, but not until then.

Deregulation was the first thing to screw the pooch here. Hub and spoke was the second. Point to point for market share will be the savior of not only the LCCs but the rest.

While many of you might see $300K+ as you reach retirement age you have to consider that $300K in 2030 is about $150K in today's dollars.

I wish you all good luck if you are on the street, I sincerely do. I hope the rest who are working are thankful for what you have. It isn't about the money....it is about the flying and being the best you can at what you do.

 

[FDJ2]

If a person wants to apply for a particular company it is thier responsability to meet that companies mins, not the other way around.

I couldn't agree more. However, the problem is determining whether or not you meet those minimums and that would entail having a log book that "accurately" represents your experience in a consistant manner. If an employer accepts block to block flight time, as most do, than a military applicant ought to convert his military flight time to block to block, in order to more accurately represent his experience. The applicant should also prominantly display his conversion methodoly in his civilian log book in order to avoid any misunderstandings. If Airtran doesn't accept a conversion factor, than his original, unconverted, flight time can be easily assessed and the applicant has not misrepresented himself.

 

[T-Bags]

"Better check your own spelling thier bud"
"Your 737-700 rates are only slightly hire."

At least get the spelling right in the sentence in which you slam someone else's. "Thier"?! Didn't comment on your usually sad attempt at spelling (mine is often worse...), I commented on your, and Ty's, continued insistance on spouting off completely false unsubstantiated BS that could easily been avoided if you did even the most feeble level of research. So either you can't read, or you prefer to appear to be a moron. Case in point:

"Last I checked the UAL AFund was dead and the BFund alive."

When was the "last time you checked" I'm sure the UAL retiree's will be surprised that the money the've been getting since retirement from the A-fund doesn't exist. Please see the thread refering to the judges decision on U's pension. maybe it will clear up some things. (might require "reading" though...)

"If you think your company, mine or anyone elses can have a a safe future keep then your head in the sand,"

huh?

"At AT, no we like every other airline had to be able to fly before we got hired, I sure UAL needed even basic abilities from even you."

What?

"Comair didnt give us an airplane to do circuts all day on taxpayer money. We did it all day on passenger money. We also did sim checks for V1 cuts, you ever do one?"

That's the point. I've done 38 landings on ONE 6 hour sortie. Mind numbing. I now average approx 15 sim's a year. I have received instruction in a 172, so I call only remark on the quality and quantity of training I received, but having over 5 years teaching in a mach 1 plus twin jet, I feel confident in my view that the training accomplished in each of those 1.1 hour sorties was FAR more intensive than anything I've done before or since. To count the hours the same as a 1 hour revenue sortie in a CL-65 or A320 for that matter, is ludicrous. as for night freight, i do that to, only at 500K lbs and to austere fields in places you likely have never heard of.

BTW, here's your sign....

 

[FLB717]

Tbag
Ok, you got me on the spelling and typo's. Thats what I get for not fully checking or using cut/paste/spellcheck. See I can admit Im wrong and you can admit you are a jerk. What I was saying about the AFund is that current UAL pilots will/may only get pennies on the dollor. I don't want anyone to loose any retiement. Yet the BFund side is untouched because it is thier money. Lets drop the my Mach number 500 lb bomb is bigger than your C150. I also have done about 40+ landings with 4 primary students in one day. So I'm not in any great awe of your landings. It must have been nice to have enough thrust to get out of bad errors, of long as you stayed spooled. You ever done a ADF let down to mins at night in a PA28 in the mountains, I bet not, but that doesnt mean your are a slacker. The flying is differnt but both can kill you with a little error. Now drop the Civ guys can't hold a candle to me crap.But that is not the point of this thread. So just for info what is the current small 737 rates, BFund and min days off at UAL. Let me know so I will have a clue. Ok back to the real point of this tread. I think FDJ2 has the best point of what Mil guys/gals should do.

 

[SWAnnabee]

Military fighter and minimums

For any AirTran folks on this thread, please forward to your HR department that, with their current minimums, AirTran is in essence telling all military FIGHTER types "We don't want you." Very few of us fighter types are in a position, after our initial 8-10 year tour in the armed forces, to meet these minimums. 2500TT, 1000 multi engine and NO taxi conversion pretty much excludes most of us from applying, especially the F-16/AV-8B types. And before you flamers begin, yes there are many military fighter types that EVENTUALLY get these hours but you need to bear in mind that these individuals typically have taken the bonus and signed on for several extra years of military service. By the time you have these hours in your logbook you are on the fast track toward a command billet and therefore "career miliraty" and pushing around 40 years of age. Very few in this position are going to be willing to risk a career change in today's aviation job environment. So, for the record as a USMC SINGLE ENGINE FIGHTER pilot (AV-8B/T-45 instructor) please consider adjusting those minimums if AirTran ever hopes to have a pilot force "mix" that most carriers try for as a broad base of experience (ie cororate/military/121). OK, Flames on!

 

[FLB717]

Botz45,
I've called HR to talk to the horse. I wanted to find out if the mins are looked at different for SE Mil, are any diff from the published mis. If any conversions or etc are made. I do want the best we can find be it Mil, Civ or Corp. We do have a mix of pilots. We have many Mil, Civ and Corp in every new hire class. The group that is becoming less is not the Mil guys but the Corp guys. We are hiring more and more Mil guys compared to a year or two ago. I would say that 15-20% of our current new hires are Mil, one was almost half, most are SE Fighter types. I consider that a real good number, considering the number of furloughed pilots with over 10K hours looking for a job.

 

[AlbieF15]

I got called for a JB interview back when you had to have 3k total time, largely because I had about 850 civilian SEL time. I had around 2500 jet hours, but those jet hours alone wouldn't have gotten me in the door in Jul 01.

If I were a "borderline" military guy who had tons of mil experience but lower TT, I might consider joining the aero club, buying a share in a plane, or something similar. Renting from an FBO can be an expensive proposition, and if you are trying to save money prior to getting out the idea of paying 50/100 bucks per hour to get some time might seem like a bad investment.

However...for your guys who think you MIGHT want to be an airline guy one day (while you keep flying in the reserves), I encourage you to go get that Comm SEL/MEL certificate and get checked out in light aircraft. Do it early in your career--don't wait until 18 months from separation. Its not cheap, but if you split a 172 or archer with another squadron bro, you just might end up having a blast and learning something new along the way. Most "new" AF pilots earned their private prior to UPT, so if they took a finacial dive into a plane about the time they were a captain, then flew 100 hours a year until their initial commitment was up, they'd have 500-800 hours more than the guy straight out of the gates. Plus, they'd have the expereince and the "fun" of enjoying GA...not for everyone but still my favorite type of flying. If you get a CFI/CFII, you can build lots of time on the weekends teaching and checking out your bros in light aircraft, all the while flying for free.

Editorial comment now...If some of you would conduct your posts as if you were talking to a real person, not an anonymous message board, the posts here would likely be a lot more professional and courteous. My name has been mentioned on the boards a few times, but even prior to that I always tried to speak as if I am talking to a real person and as if I am 100% accountable what what flows from my computer. Perhaps we need to more input from the moderators, but the bottom line is I think if everyone put their "real name" out there here and there some of the nastiness on this board might dry up. The benefits would be an increase in the utility and credibility of some of the posts and a lot less immaturity. I've heard several board regulars say "I don't even read much anymore, as it has gotten too silly..." These boards are a fantastic source of info, a rumor clearinghouse, and a great way to build a social network in our industry. These boards are only as useful as you let them become, and lately most of these posts have provided little benefit to anyone. Perhaps we need a new section for "flame wars" or "how you and your group screwed me and my group...". In the meantime, I hope some of you make a New Year's Resolution to clean up your respective acts. If you really are so convinced what you spout is gospel, then put your real signature down and stand up like a man. Otherwise...play nice and keep these boards useful.

Fly safe....Albie...who is Aaron Hagan @ FDX and the FLANG.

 

[T-Bags]

"Ok, you got me on the spelling and typo's. Thats what I get for not fully checking or using cut/paste/spellcheck. See I can admit Im wrong and you can admit you are a jerk."

You are a big man for admitting your gramatical errors ...

"You ever done a ADF let down to mins at night in a PA28 in the mountains, I bet not, but that doesnt mean your are a slacker."

Not in a "PA28" and the nav aids weren't maintained by good old US citizens, but I thought we weren't doing the "mines bigger" thing?

I think the entire message of this thread is that AT either hasn't figured out that they have excluded some of the best trained aviators in the world (I've got better than double of each and every AT min, so I don't have a dog in this fight) after all these years OR they intentionally don't want these guys. I honestly think the later. How many guys bolted from Valujet after the majors started hiring? that's extremely expensive.

As to the lower "minimums" at most if not all the majors: Why would a company want to limit who it can hire? Who will make the best pilot? A guy with 2501 hours and multiple checkride busts and violations or a 300 hour UPT graduate who finished at the top of his/her class? trust me, I've seen high hour AF officers who were, to put it nicely, not good. Likewise I've seen some pretty phenominal low hour guys. You can always get more experience, you can't however get a clue. When I was hired by a major, of the group of 5 interviewed, the two hired were the lowest hour guys. One guy not hired was a 747-400 Capt (he needed the 400 to carry his stack of violation paperwork...). In talking to the "more qualified (in AT world), not hired" guys, it was quickly apparent why. They were ill prepared for the interview. One 10,000 hour corporate guy asked me after the interview what a "TR" was. Besides being among the most basic of points of knowledge in aviation, it showed he didn't even put an effort into getting the "gouge" on the interview. At the time, neither one of use lower time, but hired guys would have met AT's mins. AT would not have even interviewed us (didn't know that cause I never applied...). They would have drawn the three "more experienced, what's a TR?" aviators. And if you think it was just a fluke, I ran into the same guy at SWA's TK during my interview. Apparently, SWA goes after the "inexperienced" guys to.....

 

[Ty Webb]

Re: Re: Re: spokesman

That's right. If you are going to throw mud at my airline, then have the cojones to tell us yours, because for every fault you find with mine, I can find plenty about yours.

And no, I am not an AirTran spokesman, anymore than I am a Boeing spokesman. I am a line pilot, one out of 850, with my own opinions and ideas, excrcising a right known as "free speech".

As to the rest of your rant, I have learned that most of your posts aren't worth repsonding to, so you'll have to find someone newer than me to play with.

 

[FLB717]

Miss, the bill Please.

 

[BMD]

bill

Does that mean you're buying the beer?

 

[SWAnnabee]

Question

What is a TR?

 

[airbaker]

What is a TR?

Thrust Reverser?

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Seriously guys/gals, let's take Albie's wise words and bring back some civility to these boards.

The whole civilian/military debate is more tired than my 14 year old cat. Each pipeline has produced it's share of winners and losers. I've done some crazy things on the civilian side; night freight in the mountains, aerobatic students in a Pitts, single pilot Citation flying into deep Mexico and Central America...but I'm still very much in awe of what the military guys bring to the table (in fact many of us "civies" had original intentions of going military, but the timing of the early 90's didn't work out)

A good hiring model seeks to balance out the skill set and experiences of their workforce. We can all learn from each other. Over the years I've picked up lots of excellent "tricks of the trade" from many pilots with unique and diverse backgrounds.

In the end we're just trying to move people safely from point A to point B. Hopefully, we'll all do the job well enough to last until retirement...only then can we look back and judge the success of our careers.

 

[T-Bags]

"Thrust Reverser?"

Nope, try again. the other "TR"


Prudent advice for the future:
a. feel free to post your AC flown, but you should NOT post your company affiliation. This is in opposition to many companies rules. It's all fun and games until you post something that p1sses off the wrong person. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out company affiliation in most cases by AC flown, and information given out on a subject, and you should be able to come to a conclusion WRT credibility from that info.
b. NEVER post your name (see above)

I fully respect that there are differant opinions on just about every issue, and this SHOULD be an open forum to slug it out on various aspects of life at each airline. In my view, a person looking for his first (or 15th) airline job SHOULD here the non-koolaid spiked version, and then he can take it for what it's worth. Likewise, if you insist on continually posting completely false info (that's incredibly easy to disprove to boot) then you deserve to be made out as a bafoon. JMO.

 

[ChichiAV8B]

I will stay away from useless name calling. Its low...even on a website. Everyone should do the same.

I think BOZT45 got my point accross. I was dissapointed to be disqualified for the job for lack flight time in a category that is not really important at my career stage.

Mins are mins and thats fine.

 

[Ty Webb]

Nice try, Bags, but your company doesn't have the right to discipline anyone for speaking their mind on this board.

I always make it clear that I am speaking for myself, not my employer.

Funny that you take every opportunity to slam my company, yet you are the one living in fear of even admitting who you were working forbefore your furlough.

In my view, a person looking for his first (or 15th) airline job SHOULD here the non-koolaid spiked version, and then he can take it for what it's worth. Likewise, if you insist on continually posting completely false info (that's incredibly easy to disprove to boot) then you deserve to be made out as a bafoon.


PS., How about "hear" "continuously" and "buffoon".

 

[FLB717]

Yeah if I say I fly a 737 everyone knows who I work for

 

[T-Bags]

"Nice try, Bags, but your company doesn't have the right to discipline anyone for speaking their mind on this board."

Is it possible for you to make even one post without being completely wrong? Yes they can and WILL.


"Why am I not surprised to learnth that to believe that you have the gall to castigate others for their spelling and grammatical errors, and then youpost this?"

No TY, Here is exactly what I said. I admit I'm the the greatest speller. But it really makes you look that much brighter to attack my "spelling" when you can't even get your's right in that very sentence. Real quality there at AT!! WTH is "learnth" and "youpost"?

"At least get the spelling right in the sentence in which you slam someone else's. "Thier"?! Didn't comment on your usually sad attempt at spelling (mine is often worse...), I commented on your, and Ty's, continued insistance on spouting off completely false unsubstantiated BS that could easily been avoided if you did even the most feeble level of research. So either you can't read, or you prefer to appear to be a moron."

As usual TY, you are a shining example of the "quality" at AT.

 

[FLB717]

Lets just all agree, all our spelling sometimes sucks, mine more than others

 

[Ty Webb]

Originally posted by T-Bags
As usual TY, you are a shining example of the "quality" at AT.

"Quality" is a pretty subjective word, Bags.

True story- the last time my Mother flew UAL (a few months ago, from SAN to MSN), UAL lost her bag, and told her they would "look into it".

Although she never heard back from UAL, she did get a telephone call later that day from the foreman of a roadside construction project, who called to tell her that they had found her bag in a ditch by the side of the road. She literally had to pick up her bag from the side of the highway- I am not kidding.

So how do you define "quality"? Obviously not by bag matching. How about financial performance?

The 2003 numbers are out today. How does your beloved UAL stack up to ol' AirTran, anyway?

Well, I'll just be gentle and say that we are continuing to grow in excess of 21% y.oy. by all yardsticks. Meanwhile, your beloved UAL, the mark of quality (to you) simply struggles each month to avoid being liquidated.

Well, then, maybe quality could be defined by the pay rate for the crew. How does UAL's 737 rate compare with AirTran's? Well, let's just say that maybe the next contract you guys get, you could aim for "AirTran plus 1%" because right now, that would be a pretty decent raise.

I'm not wasting any more time with you, Bags, (unless I need some mulch loaded into the back of my Jeep) you are living in a fantasy world.

Have a nice life, Bags.

 

[AV8OR]

Holy smokes!

What a bunch of pi$$in and moanin!

As someone who had a couple of nice LORs at Airtran, who couldn't get a call because of the 121PIC requirement, here's the thing.

Aitran and anyone else can make up/change the rules and will probably continue to do so.

Know this, if your are ex-mil and have no PIC 121 time you get a break because Airtran recognizes your training, service and potential professionalism and puts in the "or military equivilent" clause for your benefit. For the military aviator, times may not be what they were years ago, but overall, it's still a pretty good calling card. They do not do this for G-V, Challenger, or Boeing BBJ drivers. You might want to count your blessings.

Bottom line is, whether you are military or civilian, if you want to work for somebody, and they set a min you don't have, and can't find "the equivilent" in your time, either cowboy up and get it done or set your sights elsewhere. That's what the whole rest of the world does.

As far as Ty W. and others from Airtran on the board, I appreciate anyone from their airline who is proud of where they work and doesn't mind giving their "opinion" of what is going on in HR, OPS or any other aspect of their company freely to those who want it. If they offend you, why not just refrain from reading any AirTran oriented posts. It might save everybody some grief.