Airlines Must Let Paxs Off Stuck Planes

[J3 Guy]

You can thank a few Captains that would not exercise their authority.

 

[ImbracableCrunk]

A few years ago after a snowstorm in DTW, Mesaba (and NWA, I believe) had self-instituted an "Event-Recovery Policy." As I recall, it was if you had to wait an hour for a gate, then you had an "Event Recovery" and Ops was supposed to find a spot on the ramp and have you deplane from there via mobile stairs on to buses.

Of course that next winter, when the very same thing happened, Ops had no clue what an "Event Recovery" was and they weren't about to find some buses to get our pax off.

Moral of the story: If the airlines were doing a better job, they wouldn't need policies being handed down from the DOT.

AND every reg out there has some story to go with it. They say FARs are written in blood. This reg was a self-inflicted gunshot wound.

 

[scoreboardII]

To cover the multiple diverts, looks like you will have to plan multiple divert locations, not pile them all up at a facility never intended to account for that much traffic. Seems reasonable really.

What will be interesting is how many complaints arise when flights start canceling and now folks are stranded in the wrong city. "oh wait, I'll sit on that plane for four hours just get me there..." "Nope, sorry, it's the LAW!"

Unintended consequences...

 

[airbrush]

What usually happens with multiple diverts is that our mainline company, as well as more than one of our contract carriers, will all use our station as an alternate because we are geographically convenient to a couple of big hub cities. When things hit the fan, the diversion decisions are usually made independently by the individual crews/dispatchers of each flight, without necessarily coordinating with each other. There is someone at SOC who is supposed to handle this type of thing, but that doesn't always work when things happen quickly. Sometimes the first warning we have of a diversion is when the flight calls in range asking for a gate. We can usually deal with things as they come, it's just that sometimes these things happen at just the wrong time, like when we only have a few people due to the structure of our schedules. We also will call SOC and tell them to pass the word to everyone that we cannot take any more diversions.

 

[Fearless Tower]

The regulation provides exceptions only for safety or security or if air traffic control advises the pilot in command that returning to the terminal would disrupt airport operations.

Is it just me or does this seem kind of like a pointless, do-nothing rule?

So the airline can only keep people on the plane for up to 3 hrs...UNLESS removing them will disrupt airport operations. Then the rule doesn't apply.

Seems to me, most cases of folks getting stuck on the ramp were largely because their airline could not find a way to bring them in without disrupting ops.

 

[mamba20]

Interesting that they pound out this little gem but the FAA still can't revise crew duty and rest times. Priorities are clearly in the right place. . .

 

[BLUE BAYOU]

Well, I didn't expect a juvenile response. But anyways, I fly out of ATL, I believe that counts as a major hub. And while, due to an enormous passing storm, I have been stuck on the taxiway for about 2 hours prior to being able to depart, I have never been stuck for 4 or 5 hours once pushed back from the gate. And nowadays, if that does happen, you'll probably hear about it on the news. So no, it's not an everyday occurrence, so don't worry about how your airline will recoup its costs--since you apparently are so concerned with how management is able to line its pockets in the wake of "socialist policies."

Ever been to JFK on a crappy day, or better yet, any day? Throw in the fact that Runway 31L will be closed for 6 months next year-- it should be quite interesting--

 

[ultrarunner]

Looks like our government actually did something that makes sense.


J3

What's really PATHETIC is that it needed to be legislated in the first place.....

Protecting us from the lack of common sense, I guess....

 

[Caveman]

These are the same knuckleheads that are going 'fix' health care too. God help us....

 

[Lear70]

I've been doing this for over 2 decades. I've been stuck on an airplane in a hub for 4+ hours exactly ONCE. In ATL, actually AFTER we landed, after T-storms had been pounding the area all day, crews had timed out, and planes were stuck at gates.

Problem #1: The thunderstorms delaying things until crews were starting to time out.
Problem #2: Mixed flight crews to save money from hiring more F/A's. You'd have a plane at the gate with pilots but no back end crew because they were stuck out on the tarmac waiting for THAT plane to push, and another plane next door with F/A's but no pilots because THEY were in that other plane waiting for that gate.
Problem #3: Not having a contingency plan to push the plane off the gate with a Mx crew or just one pilot to get it somewhere else on the ramp or a back taxiway and park it to free up that gate.
Problem #4: Inadequate advance planning, knowing the storm was coming, but not putting any type of "contingency plan" in effect EARLY, BEFORE the storm hits, to minimize your problems once it's here.

I agree with previous posters, that hopefully this will incentivize the airlines to come up with a reasonable contingency plan. If they simply instruct their station managers to tell the tower controllers that "it would disrupt our operations to allow that aircraft to come back - we don't have the facilities to accommodate another 130+ people in the airport or the staff to address their re-booking", this will accomplish nothing, and will STILL require the pilots to eventually stand up for themselves and force the issue. Sure was a lot easier in an RJ where the stairs were on the door... Did that twice in the 5 years I was at PCL, simply taxied back in, found a convenient and safe spot, parked the plane, shut down, and opened the door, refusing to move. Funny how quick they come to get your people when you're blocking the entire ramp operation.

Airbrush, no offense, but when I deem it necessary, I *AM* coming back to the terminal, and it's the ground crew's job to make that happen. If you're boarding up another plane and need another 10 or 20 minutes and I don't have a medical or security emergency? Sure, take your 10 or 20 minutes. If that flight looks to be delayed on a ground hold, those people have been in the terminal for a while, THEY can go sit out on the tarmac and wait while we, who have been out there for hours, get to come in. Load them up and push the plane off the gate.

If you have to take a pilot or a mechanic and push an empty plane back OFF the gate and hard-stand it, then do it. If you can't, get the air stairs that EVERY airport keeps on-property for jetbridge breakdowns and walk them in. You guys know what you need to do to make that happen, just understand that I am *GOING* to do what is required for the safety of my passengers. Being trapped on an airplane for extended periods of time (6+ hours) IS a safety issue.

The minute I stop being responsible for my passenger's safety is the moment I don't need to work in this industry anymore. We bear a responsibility to our passengers. It's a delicate line, but once that line is crossed, it's time to get them off the plane and somewhere they can address their basic bodily needs.

 

[anewunion]

How bout we fix the ATC problem, and no one will wait 3 hrs...

 

[Scope out RJ's]

How bout we fix the ATC problem, and no one will wait 3 hrs...

How dare you make complete sense!
Isn't it more feasable to keep the current system in place and tie up the court systems with more frivilous lawsuits?

 

[ImbracableCrunk]

How about we stop cramming a plus-size ladies into size-3 dresses.

Wait - I mean how about we stop cramming 1,000 daily operations into airports designed for 500?

(If only there was a way to get more people onto fewer planes. . . hmmmmm.)

 

[ImbracableCrunk]

If you have to take a pilot or a mechanic and push an empty plane back OFF the gate and hard-stand it, then do it. If you can't, get the air stairs that EVERY airport keeps on-property for jetbridge breakdowns and walk them in.

Maybe each airline/aiport should have X number of airstairs per plane.

Every airport has to have emergency plans in place for fires, tornadoes, etc. Maybe they should have a contingency plan for offloading passengers/crews. It could be a designated overflow parking area, or whatever, where buses can be escorted. Maybe it's just a spot at the end of the terminal where the plane parks momentarily to offload. It's not that complicated is it?

Airlines don't do anything unless the alternatives cost less. If a fine is more expensive than having to put in effect a plan, then the choice is obvious.

 

[General Lee]

Passengers will love it when at 2:59 we have to go back to the gate and CNX the flight, and then they have to find a hotel room on their dime since the flight is now cancelled due to WX. Hilarious.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[livin'thesim]

Well, the airlines did this to themselves by failing to plan for contingencies.

After the DTW debacle a few years ago, and the more recent examples, they have used up multiple chances to be proactive.

Now, the reactionary government will force the issue.

Well, they had ample warning.

 

[SpauldingSmails]

Well, the airlines did this to themselves by failing to plan for contingencies.

After the DTW debacle a few years ago, and the more recent examples, they have used up multiple chances to be proactive.

Now, the reactionary government will force the issue.

Well, they had ample warning.

Good point, there are few examples of airports that can facilitate off-loading of passengers without a jetway.

Washington-Dulles is sort of unique with their "Planemate" vehicles. The vehicles are operated by the airport authority, so no single airline can stake claim to their use. (i.e. Mesaba supposedly barring that Expressjet flight from using their gate.) A lot of aircraft can be parked on a remote pad, and shuttled directly from the aircraft to the terminal.

It probably wouldn't be a terrible idea for some of the major hubs to have a couple of these vehicles and a docking door on the terminal for when things get really bad. At least this way you can get folks back to the terminal without a dedicated jetway and having to move aircraft all around.
Likewise, it could offer a way to allow people wishing to deplane a ride back to the terminal without having to take the aircraft all the way back terminal, and allowing others to stay on board while the plane waits in line.

 

[Lear70]

Well, the airlines did this to themselves by failing to plan for contingencies.

After the DTW debacle a few years ago, and the more recent examples, they have used up multiple chances to be proactive.

Now, the reactionary government will force the issue.

Well, they had ample warning.

That's essentially it.

If the airlines would respond by putting a REASONABLE contingency plan into place, say at 6 hours, hard limit, and show that every airport they served had the equipment and procedures to do it, they could probably effectively lobby to repeal this latest move by the Obama administration.

Otherwise, if they won't, then they can just be stuck with it. Something had to be done...

 

[Turtle21]

Costs will go up because of this little gem. Question is: Who's gonna pay for it?

The FOs and FAs sitting reserve. :laugh:

 

[jonjuan]

How about we stop cramming a plus-size ladies into size-3 dresses.

Watch it, or Mrs. Lee will accuse you of slander.