Airlines and Unions

[Astra Guy]

And PlaneHPN is?

 

[enigma]

Astra, I almost sent this reply in a PM, but why keep everyone else in the dark.

A couple of thoughts if you please. First, I understand that you were trying to get airline pilots to re-evaluate their thinking on unions and seniority. That's a noble goal, but please don't start out with an insult next time. Second, I understand that you think a lot of airline pilots have blindly accepted the union party line, sort of a moth to the flame thing, and you are trying to get us to open our eyes. I truly appreciate that, but I must tell you that most of us have not just blindly accepted the party line. A whole lot of us have personally experienced life without contractually binding rules and we choose to stay where we have those rules.

I will accept you at your word about the way you treat your people, and you are to be commended. However, you are the exception, not the rule. Please just take my word for that statement.

Also please forgive my bulldog tendency in this thread. You just kept giving me your throat.


Finally, I think that Tony was just trying to be funny, but it was LOW. LOL


regards,
enigma

 

[enigma]

Ok guys/gals, here are several questions. Do you think membership in your union helps your company retain profitability? Do you think that your union rewards those who are the best in the business or do they reward those who have the seniority to hang on during lean economic times regardless of their worth?

I just sat down and re-read this string. I realize that I was so incensed about Astra's attitudes toward reserve pilots, that I never answered the original questions.

Yes, I believe that my MEC/LEC's (along with my membership) helps my company retain profitibility. I believe so, because without union protection against arbitrary termination, some of our responsibility challenged middle managers would have engaged in so much "pilot pushing" that we would have suffered some sort of accident. Accidents tend to affect profitibility, especially for small carriers. Heck, one of the first things the CP said in initial was, "guys, this is a one accident airline, please be careful". Good CP, but he doesn't control the schedulers, marketing, M/X, etc. I've seen middle managers (station) make decisions based entirely upon their station because they get paid a bonus based solely upon their station performance. For example, a couple of years ago, a station manager wouldn't staff adequately for our evening pushes so we routinely had aircraft holding for a gate only because there weren't enough ramp rats to marshall us in. Gates were available mind you, there just weren't any rampers to work them. I won't air my companys operational dirty laundry here, but I am will say that the same levels of mid level manager misconduct has happened. The only reason that a lot of pilots have the nerve to say no is the union.

I wish I could give specific examples, but doing so really wouldn't be appropriate, or wise!

So, yes the union has helped my carrier remain profitable.

You also asked, "Do you think that your union rewards those who are the best in the business or do they reward those who have the seniority to hang on during lean economic times regardless of their worth? "
That's about like asking someone when they stopped beating their wife, but I'll attempt to answer. Unions don't reward members, it's not the unions place to reward anyone. We both know that the basic function of a union is to close the barn door after we are inside; a situation that forces management to work with us, instead of finding some starry-eyed kid who would INITIALLY work for less. That is the main function of a union. They are a LEGAL means to force company to work with their employees instead of just tossing them.

Your question presupposes that unions are the only reason for a boom/bust cycle. If that could be proven, I would be fighting alongside you to get ride of the union. However, I believe that the boom and bust cycle is totally unrelated to pilot staffing. The reasons are the subject for another string, but I'll venture to guess that the cycles are largely caused by business cycles in general. Consider the aftereffects of Sept, 11. 2001. A lot of pilots were furloughed, did their union contracts cause those furloughs?
I don't think so. Obviously, with no passengers, the airlines needed to stop the bleeding, and they cut flights/cut pilots. I can't think of a better way to determine who gets cut than to look at dates of service. Seniority. How else could you fairly determine who to can when events outside anyones control make the force reduction a necessity?

To put it quite simply, the union/seniority system gives pilots a constant in a world of variables. We like having a constant enough to overlook the minor problems.

regards,
enigma

 

[Timebuilder]

I was thinking today about this thread, and the fact that most unions will encourage a democrat candidate.

What is more on my mind, however, is that most unions will use YOUR money to support this choice (THEIR choice) of candidate.

Now, it is my understanding that by declaring "financial core" you can deprive the union of using your dues, or that portion of your dues, to support a candidate that that you yourself do not necessarily support.

A great number of people in AFTRA and SAG both have made this declaration. The unions don't like it, but the court has decided that they cannot compell you to give your dues to act against your own political beliefs.

Has anyone pursued this in the airline arena?

 

[Astra Guy]

Enigma,

I am breaking my word to you privately to respond one last time on this thread.

I am not against having pilots in reserve. I am against giving pilots who are on reserve the option of remaining there for perpetuity. In other words within some time frame, if lines become available, they would be required to take a line.

I had no intention of insulting pilots who are on reserve. Most are there waiting to hold a line.

I know unions do not cause economic booms or busts. The economy does.

I believe I have expressed myself to you privately well enough that you should know first, I don't have a dog in this race. Secondly, my main purpose in starting this thread was to become better informed on the system that you work within. Thirdly, my ideas are not self serving. Next, while I am not necessarily in agreement with the party line, I am willing to admit that it may be the best solution for a complex situation given the management/workforce relationship in today's unionized airlines.

Surplus1 was kind enough to spend a lot of time to point out some errors in my thinking as well as my ignorance without attacking me personally. I appreciate his thoughtful and enlightening post.

No two people can agree 100% of the time on each item of a complex subject.

For myself, I will not pruposefully attempt to belittle or insult anyone publicly on a board that I happen to disagree with. I think that is appropriate behavior for any mature professional.
Other professional boards have that as minimum acceptable behavior to remain active. I realize this is not really a professional board but an informational board.

I will leave you the final word. I will no longer participate on this thread.

 

[A Squared]

I am not against having pilots in reserve. I am against giving pilots who are on reserve the option of remaining there for perpetuity. In other words within some time frame, if lines become available, they would be required to take a line.

What is it with you and reserve? It seems like you have some deep seated emotional resentment which is driving this, which is impervious to reason and logic. What do you care if someone choses to sit reserve?

As has been discussed thoroughly, Airlines need pilots on reserve.

As has been discussed thouroughly, the vast majority of pilots do not like to be on reserve, prefering a flying line. Just to restate my position, I personally prefer not to sit reserve.

So why should you care if some very few pilots actually like to hold a line that most find undesirable? Why would you propose a policy which would force those pilots to hold lines which they don't like? It doesn't make sense.

Let's take a hypothetical airline. Let's suppose that this airline needs 5 flying lines and one reserve line. The airline is perfectly staffed with 6 crews. One of those crews, a Captain and an FO, for reasons of thier own, prefer reserve lines ... the remaining 10 pilots, like most pilots, prefer a flying line to a reserve line.

It would seem that the most sensible approach would be to give everyone the lines what they want. Yet, you propose forcing the only crew which prefers a reserve line to take a flying line .... and thus by extension forcing a crew who prefers a flying line to take a reserve line. This results in 2 out of 6 crews being unhappy with thier line assignments. Obviously, this hypothetical case is very simplified, but the same principal can be extended to reality: For every one of the few pilots who like reserve whom you force to take a flying line he doesn't want, you force on pilot who prefers a flying line to take a reserve line he doesn't want.

What exactly have you gained? It doessn't make any sense from any perspective I can see. There is no financial advantage, it is poor human resources management, what is the benefit of what you propose?

 

[enigma]

what is the benefit of what you propose?

AA, I have exchanged a few PM's with Astra and he seems to be OK. With that said, I can't exactly figure out his purpose in this arena. You ask the benefit of his proposal, I am still asking what his proposal is...

When I read , and re-read, this string, I don't find a concrete proposal dealing with eliminating reserve pilots. He said in his last post, "I am not against having pilots in reserve. I am against giving pilots who are on reserve the option of remaining there for perpetuity. In other words within some time frame, if lines become available, they would be required to take a line."

That doesn't fit reality because we all know that airlines will always need reserves. Other posts including yours have explained exactly why, yet Astras' words that reserve pilots will someday be required to take a line indicate to me that he thinks the only reason airlines have reserve lines is that they are overstaffed with pilots.

Astra, until mankind comes up with aircraft that don't break, runways that don't close, pilots that never get ill, weather that never goes below CAVU, pax that don't get sick over nowhere Nebraska, etc, airlines WILL REQUIRE reserve pilots.

Another thing about reserves, we don't just sit around. I average about thirty five hours a month sitting reserve. So the company is getting a return on their investment. If you asked a SWA reserve, you would probably find that they fly even more than I do. In truth, the companies are more efficient than it may seem from the outside.

My carrier publishes relief lines, lines that are not reserve, but are not set in stone at the beginning of the month. These relief lines allow the company more flexibility in writing schedules, but are not exactly pilot friendly. This IS WITH FULL CONCURANCE FROM the union. Once again, the union is working with the company, not against them. Think about it.

regards,
enigma

 

[bigD]

I will leave you the final word. I will no longer participate on this thread.

Wait a minute - what just happened here? Apparently something went down via PM...why terminate what has so far been (IMO) a great thread?

I've just been lurking, but the posts have been really enlightening for someone trying to soak up more information about how the industry works...thanks all for the effort you've put into this discussion.

 

[enigma]

...why terminate what has so far been (IMO) a great thread?

Big D, Astra didn't indicate that he was going to terminate the thread.

Note to Astra, Please don't terminate the thread. I'm still studying it as others are as well.

regards,
enigma

 

[bigD]

Yeah enigma, "terminate" was the wrong word for me to use. I meant that further discussion would likely end since Astra decided to leave. I don't believe anyone else was arguing his position.

 

[enigma]

Yeah enigma, "terminate" was the wrong word for me to use. I meant that further discussion would likely end since Astra decided to leave. I don't believe anyone else was arguing his position.

Yeah, now we get to go develop a virtual airline.



enigma

 

[Draginass]

So who won the war?

Management will ultimately win even though profits suffer in the short term. Gives them an excuse to hire cheap labor as replacements. As far as the price of chicken goes, blame the CEOs of Albertson's etc.

Actually, I'm surprised that you still have a Vons and Albertsons. I guess you don't have a Walmart superstore in your area yet. When that gets there, you won't have any other supermarkets after a year or two. You won't have any jobs that pay over $5.50 an hour either, though.

 

[TransMach]

Dragginass,

It is suprising that there still is Vons, Albertsons, Ralphs ... all Local 440, as well as Ranch Market, Gelsons, Smart & Final, COSCO, and Wal*Mart is all over. But everyone I know, regardless if whether they are represented by a union or not, professionals or not, if they have health insurance .. they are paying more and more of the increasing costs.

My gripe is while Local 440 fights over a small increase in health costs being passed on to the employee, my grocery bill is going through the roof!

TransMach

 

[wms]

I know businessmen in conventional businesses that don't understand or like reserves. They don't appreciate the idea of someone getting paid to sit at home. But reservists aren't paid to not work, they are paid to be available. A minimum guaranteed pay is used to keep the company from overloading on reserves and having a lot of pilots sitting around and not getting paid.

In conventional business, coworkers can cover when someone is sick or for some reason can't get to work. In corporate aviation there is no shortage of contract pilots to call upon in a pinch, but 121 requires pilots to be specifically trained by that company which requires reserves.

If the reserve rules for a company are good it will go senior, if they're not it'll be junior. Reserves are necessary because of the nature of the airline business, not the laziness of the pilots. If pilots had the choice there would be no reserves, and we wouldn't have to suffer being on reserve. But that is not possible. So reserves are a harsh reality.

 

[enigma]

Reserves are necessary because of the nature of the airline business, not the laziness of the pilots. If pilots had the choice there would be no reserves, and we wouldn't have to suffer being on reserve. But that is not possible. So reserves are a harsh reality.

wms,

Now you're just clouding everyones perceptions with facts. stop it . stop it.



enigma

 

[AVI1900D]

Do you think that your union rewards those who are the best in the business or do they reward those who have the seniority to hang on during lean economic times regardless of their worth?

I too think that the seniority system sucks. My reason is that I have an uncle who is a chief pilot at a major. They have a couple of thousand guys on furlough. Because of this stupid seniority thing that ALPA started I cant get hired infront of these guys. I also resent the fact that I cant go straight to the left seat of the 747. I am 27 and have a lot more enegy than the old buzzerds flying those airplanes. Hell, I'm even willing to fly the 747 for $20.00/hr. and work 25 days a month. Guess what folks I'm not the only one in this situation, there are hundreds like me out there. Do away with your unions and that unproductive seniority that is costing mgt so much money. WE ARE WAITING.

 

[skydiverdriver]

Astra Guy,
I think I see the problem. It sounds to me like you think that if a senior pilot bids reserve, that this prevents someone who was on reserve from getting a line. Actually, the opposite is true. If I'm on reserve and the top of the reserve list, and some pilot in my category senior to me bids reserve, that means I get a line. I couldn't thank him enough! We have the same number of people on reserve and with lines, and it benefits junior people if a more senior lineholder bids reserve for whatever reason.

I hope this helps you.