Airline workers want pay, benefits restored

[DieselDragRacer]

By Dan Reed, USA TODAY

U.S. airlines workers, who have gone through pay and benefit cuts, layoffs, bankruptcies and rising workloads in recent years, are looking to capitalize on the return to profits this year of most big U.S. carriers.

The push for better deals by workers, who've seen ranks thinned 25% since 2000, is creating an increasingly tense relations climate in the industry. "Labor is going to want to walk away with something. They have to," says consultant Michael Boyd of Boyd Group International, whose clients have included airline unions. "Airline labor has been on hold for the last seven years."

Currently on the table:

•Votes were being counted late Tuesday on whether mechanics and related workers at American Airlines will take a deal that's short of their goals but would end three years of talks — or authorize a strike.

•American's three years of talks with flight attendants, ramp workers and pilots are nearing a decision point this fall.

•Delta flight attendants and ground workers are gearing up for union representation elections this fall. Those had been non-union jobs at Delta, but former Northwest Airlines workers, who came with the 2008 merger, were strong unionists who want the top world carrier fully union.

•US Airways recently asked a federal judge to break the legal stalemate between former America West pilots and those of the old US Airways. America West bought US Airways in 2005 and took its name. The dispute about which union will represent them has stalled full integration of the two operations. At stake is union seniority, which governs pay and assignments.

•The proposed merger of United and Continental can't close until their unions and the government approve. Mindful of US Airways' problems, the companies are urging their unions to reach accords now, which has given unions leverage to trade for not gumming up the merger.
But the labor militancy does not mean that strikes are inevitable, says Jerry Glass, principal at F&H Solutions Group, which advises airlines on labor talks.

"The trend is going to be, at least for the short term, more angst for both employees and management. But I think, long term, things will start to settle down. That will probably occur after American finishes its round (of talks) and after United and Continental complete their merger" and get new labor contracts.

 

[pilotyip]

Will good for a few senior guys, not so good for everyone else. The market and individual self-interest will dictate what wages should be. It is basic economics, if you raise the price of commodity, less people will purchase that commodity. With less people purchasing there is not as much demand for that commodity, therefore there will be fewer, but better paid pilots. That is what we had under Regulation.

 

[P38JLightning]

LOL I seriously doubt this will usher back the passenger levels of regulation. Seriously, come on. Plenty of people were flying in the mid to late 90's/2000 at astronomically high fares. Fares have plummeted now, but airlines are just now starting to crack the ancelarry revenue code. There is room for significant pilot raises that would impact ticket prices at or below what people pay for coffee.

Now $60/hr tug drivers...that's another story.

 

[pilotyip]

right now people are changing flights for a $1 difference in fares, the airline survuve on the 1.5 seats sold 45 days in advance for $99. The marginal flyer is very elastic, everyone who has tried to raise prices has had to back down almost immediately

 

[luckytohaveajob]

YIP was in favor of 250 hour new hires being paid $15 per hour and supported age 65. YIP is typical chief pilot material who will never needed a chiropractor because he does not have a spine.

Do not expect YIP to every carry the line for other pilots or the pilots he leads. He is in it for himself plain and simple.

 

[luckytohaveajob]

The market and individual self-interest will dictate what wages should be.

Proof YIP is out for number one and no one else. He even wrote it consciously and is proud of it.

 

[DonVerita]

Don't listen to anything PilotYip says. He is a management stooge to the core. He has every anti-labor line out of Airline Management 101 memorized.

 

[the palm]

But will the majors give up scope to get it? History says yes.

 

[pilotyip]

yea lets not pay any addition to reality, live in a FI reality seperated from the real world of airline consumers who vote with their dollars.

 

[Midge]

yea lets not pay any addition to reality, live in a FI reality seperated from the real world of airline consumers who vote with their dollars.

Spoken like the true management stooge you are!

 

[NuGuy]

None of this matters. Next year when the Great Economic Collapse happens, you'll be riding your bike to the communal vegetable garden.

One guy even recommends stocking up on the "airline size" bottles of booze. Apparently, they're great for the barter economy that will spring up.

Nu

 

[acpilot]

Spoken like the true management stooge you are!

That doesn't mean he's wrong. I agree with him.

 

[Midge]

That doesn't mean he's wrong. I agree with him.

Then maybe you can go to work for him....He's got all the answers, and is willing to screw whoever, including you, his fan club, to keep your wages down.

 

[acpilot]

Maybe I could. I've applied at least once. I have a minimum annual $$ amount I'll work for, though. I don't know if they can meet it.

 

[jollyroger4]

Restore the Industry!!. . . please!

 

[Max Powers]

None of this matters. Next year when the Great Economic Collapse happens, you'll be riding your bike to the communal vegetable garden.

One guy even recommends stocking up on the "airline size" bottles of booze. Apparently, they're great for the barter economy that will spring up.

Nu

Imagine that NuGuy former NWA ****************************** is betting on a complete collapse of our world. Get back to watching Glenn Beck you fragging tool.

 

[Midge]

Maybe I could. I've applied at least once. I have a minimum annual $$ amount I'll work for, though. I don't know if they can meet it.

I'll bet you pilotyip's salary (which isn't much, btw) you can't afford to go to work there.
And if you meet him, tell him to stop being such a jackhole!

 

[NuGuy]

Imagine that NuGuy former NWA ****************************** is betting on a complete collapse of our world. Get back to watching Glenn Beck you fragging tool.

Um, wut? I couldn't quite make out what you said. You're coming in stupid.

Nu

 

[Mamma]

right now people are changing flights for a $1 difference in fares, the airline survuve on the 1.5 seats sold 45 days in advance for $99. The marginal flyer is very elastic, everyone who has tried to raise prices has had to back down almost immediately

I think it is the intense competition and not the "marginal flyer" determining the fares. The internet lists fares by price. If an airline charges $1 more it moves their ticket option several slots down. If other airlines will not match a price increase, then the increase fails and the fare stays low. That is the game. Many airlines protect turf this way. I believe the passenger will pay $5 or even $20 more if that is the lowest price offered for the trip. Just look at ticket prices where competition is low. People still fly.

When I was young I had a job in concessions at an IMAX theater. We got a new "college educated" manager who immediately raised the price on candy bars from $1 to $2. Said he would only have to sell half as many to make the same amount of money. He sold almost the same amount and we made much more money. He had no competition. If he had competition, he may have been selling candy bars to people for $.50 that would have been willing to pay $2.00! I think as long as the price increases are not super excessive, the customer will pay them. The problem is too much competition for too few customers. A buyers market for airline tickets in many markets!

 

[pilotyip]

When I was young I had a job in concessions at an IMAX theater. We got a new "college educated" manager who immediately raised the price on candy bars from $1 to $2. Said he would only have to sell half as many to make the same amount of money. He sold almost the same amount and we made much more money. He had no competition. If he had competition, he may have been selling candy bars to people for $.50 that would have been willing to pay $2.00! I think as long as the price increases are not super excessive, the customer will pay them. The problem is too much competition for too few customers. A buyers market for airline tickets in many markets!

But the movie theater down the street who continued to sell candy bars at $1 saw its load factor go up after the word spread around about the higher candy bar prices at your Imax. For those who say the consumers won't change because of price, why is it loads free fall drop ever time a price increase has been announced? example in May of 09 SWA doubled their advance purchase ticket prices, sales dropped off the scale within two weeks prices had returned to normal. BTW I have nothing against an airline pilot making $500K/yr, you just have to find an econ structure that will support it.

Then maybe you can go to work for him....He's got all the answers, and is willing to screw whoever, including you, his fan club, to keep your wages down.

actually JUS starting pay for a DC-9 F/O at $37/ky is higher than Delta, American, CAL, USAirways, and all of the regionals,

 

[Kalifornia]

But the movie theater down the street who continued to sell candy bars at $1 saw its load factor go up after the word spread around about the higher candy bar prices at your Imax. For those who say the consumers won't change because of price, why is it loads free fall drop ever time a price increase has been announced? example in May of 09 SWA doubled their advance purchase ticket prices, sales dropped off the scale within two weeks prices had returned to normal. BTW I have nothing against an airline pilot making $500K/yr, you just have to find an econ structure that will support it.


actually JUS starting pay for a DC-9 F/O at $37/ky is higher than Delta, American, CAL, USAirways, and all of the regionals,

Gee, there's a surprise, you continue to chime in in some vain attempt to give your career some kind of meaning by the downing of others. General Lee, some comical posts, some good posts, some bad posts, but he remains but a anonymous character on here that blends the slick airline pilot style with a rebel tinge. You on the other hand, have egotistically outed yourself while maintaining an extremists stance on safety or lack of including proclamation in the past that an MEL should be followed without question to the legitimacy as one example. Do you still feel that way? Because of that's the stance of your company, I would discourage anyone from ever going there. Ballsy and moronic of you at the same time IMHO. Have you not asked yourself, speaking of economics, what are the potential costs of you blabbing every down with this profession opinion to as many people as possible?

 

[instructordude]

We are probably a little underpaid since 9/11 but our profession has perks other careers don't have. Some perks we enjoy our a lot of days off, free travel, an office with a view at 410 and the status sympbol of our job. We may never recover our pay but you guys can't deny some of these perks.

 

[Mamma]

But the movie theater down the street who continued to sell candy bars at $1 saw its load factor go up after the word spread around about the higher candy bar prices at your Imax. For those who say the consumers won't change because of price, why is it loads free fall drop ever time a price increase has been announced? example in May of 09 SWA doubled their advance purchase ticket prices, sales dropped off the scale within two weeks prices had returned to normal. BTW I have nothing against an airline pilot making $500K/yr, you just have to find an econ structure that will support it.

But, there was no movie theater down the street. There was no competition. The point was the customer wanted a product and even though the price was high, it was not outrageous so they bought it.

Tell me why loads did not free fall when the baggage charges started? Why are Alaska Airlines passengers not flocking to Southwest? (SWA does not have baggage fees).

I still don't think its the customer setting the fares entirely but the intense competition for a finite amount of customers. True, there are some that will not fly if prices go up X amount, but there are many that still will. Capacity has to go down for prices to go up.

 

[pilotyip]

good to hear from you again

Gee, there's a surprise, you continue to chime in in some vain attempt to give your career some kind of meaning by the downing of others. General Lee, some comical posts, some good posts, some bad posts, but he remains but a anonymous character on here that blends the slick airline pilot style with a rebel tinge. You on the other hand, have egotistically outed yourself while maintaining an extremists stance on safety or lack of including proclamation in the past that an MEL should be followed without question to the legitimacy as one example. Do you still feel that way? Because of that's the stance of your company, I would discourage anyone from ever going there. Ballsy and moronic of you at the same time IMHO. Have you not asked yourself, speaking of economics, what are the potential costs of you blabbing every down with this profession opinion to as many people as possible?

Do you follow me around the board? You are a very low poster nut about 1/3 of your posts have been to me?

 

[Kalifornia]

Do you follow me around the board? You are a very low poster nut about 1/3 of your posts have been to me?

You're the only one on here who has uninvited private messaged me more than once as implied you have with many others. I am on a mission to prevent some misguided up and coming professional pilot souls from believing your bad intentioned rhetoric. I would suggest you change your approach or go missed.

 

[pilotyip]

You're the only one on here who has uninvited private messaged me more than once as implied you have with many others. I am on a mission to prevent some misguided up and coming professional pilot souls from believing your bad intentioned rhetoric. I would suggest you change your approach or go missed.

So no freedom of speech? No have "You ever thought of unintended consequences, like "You might be walking off a cliff in the dark"? No looking a history to see what has happened in the past? No living of a childhood dream of flying airplanes? No dealing with the reality of the marketplace and no ever considering that management might just be trying to save the airline and the associated jobs? This is what has to be givne up to be accepted on FI?

 

[Kharma Police]

You're the only one on here who has uninvited private messaged me more than once as implied you have with many others. I am on a mission to prevent some misguided up and coming professional pilot souls from believing your bad intentioned rhetoric. I would suggest you change your approach or go missed.

Oh man!, I thought I was the only one who got treated with his narcissistic/self pity life story!

 

[Hutchman]

...actually JUS starting pay for a DC-9 F/O at $37/ky is higher than Delta, American, CAL, USAirways, and all of the regionals,

Delta $54

 

[Midge]

actually JUS starting pay for a DC-9 F/O at $37/ky is higher than Delta, American, CAL, USAirways, and all of the regionals,

Um....I'm not sure where you get your information, but it's all public.
BUT, just for you
DAL 1st year pay=$54/hr at 70/hr guarantee 12 mos =$45,360
CAL, UAL and AMR 1st year pay are 31/33/35. But a substantial jump in 2nd year pay more than offsets the lousy pay you are talking about.
Maybe try a little research before spouting something that just isn't completely true. But looking at your posts, you never seem to mind telling something that isn't true.

 

[pilotyip]

Oh man!, I thought I was the only one who got treated with his narcissistic/self pity life story!

nope I am an equal opportunity PMer, prefer not to hide behind a screen name, like many, out of the 400-500 PM's I send only about 5 fit into your category. Most were cordial.

Um....I'm not sure where you get your information, but it's all public.
BUT, just for you
DAL 1st year pay=$54/hr at 70/hr guarantee 12 mos =$45,360
CAL, UAL and AMR 1st year pay are 31/33/35. But a substantial jump in 2nd year pay more than offsets the lousy pay you are talking about.
Maybe try a little research before spouting something that just isn't completely true. But looking at your posts, you never seem to mind telling something that isn't true.

I must have an old pay scale, I got it old of here but can not remember when. BTW When we don't like reality, we then to think of it as untrue.