Airline Pilot Pay justification

[Mamma]

YIP, you have accurately parroted management's excuse, but it is WRONG. Ticket price is only one part of the equation, and only the leisure traveler cares ONLY about price. Departure time, arrival time, frequency, connection times and other factors are important to a large number of travelers. SWA is not always the cheapest ticket, but has the perception of being the cheapest. Same with AirTran. many people just go to the airline's proprietary site and book.

Beyond ticket price, every airline also has a different RASM. It is up to management to decide how to raise the most money per aircraft, but paying a professional pilot a decent wage must be factored in, period.

If ALL airlines had to pay a minimum rate for pilot services they would all just have to absorb the cost, and could not use lower pilot pay as a competitive advantage. That is why I am in favor of an industry Guild (like the AMA or the Bar Association) for Pilots that set minimum pay rates per aircraft . . . and by "minimum" I mean like 2001 pay rates.

It would be nice if there were a minimum pay rate for pilots based on longevity. Get seniority out of the equation. If ALPA/SWAPA/USAPA/APA and the Teamsters could negotiate those rates with the ATA I think it might work. Airline managements want constants and they want to know what is going on down the line in regards to labor costs. This would help define that and set the bar so the airlines aren't slashing labor to undercut each other. Each union/pilot group could negotiate rates above he minimums but pay would not go below the minimums.

This is all a pipe dream though because I think airline management loves it when they negotiate a deal against pilot unions. Just as they have done over the last decade with the help of the courts.

 

[pilotyip]

YIP, you have accurately parroted management's excuse, but it is WRONG. .............or of an industry Guild (like the AMA or the Bar Association) for Pilots that set minimum pay rates per aircraft . . . and by "minimum" I mean like 2001 pay rates.

Maybe I am wrong, go ahead make the demands from AT to get what you want, I am just saying there maybe unintended consequences, that is all.

It would be nice if there were a minimum pay rate for pilots based on longevity. Get ............. Just as they have done over the last decade with the help of the courts.

What about non-union carrier and upstarts that see a great cost differential to make money and steal ridership should that ever be considered in putting additional burdens on the airline?

BTW I sometimes wonder if the pilot force is isolated from the consumer?

 

[Mamma]

Maybe I am wrong, go ahead make the demands from AT to get what you want, I am just saying there maybe unintended consequences, that is all.


What about non-union carrier and upstarts that see a great cost differential to make money and steal ridership should that ever be considered in putting additional burdens on the airline?

BTW I sometimes wonder if the pilot force is isolated from the consumer?

Not isolated at all YIP. Do you think management or the BOD thinks about the consumer when they award upper management perks and contracts? $20 million for Richard Anderson? There is a limited amount of pie at the table and each group has a responsibility to get as large a piece as they realistically can.

If Ty's idea of a professional guild ever comes into being, then I would imagine those that play outside the guild never gain entrance. Kind of like Scabs. You go and work for upstart "X" that is paying below the negotiated guild minimum, you are banned from being in the guild forever and partaking in any guild benefit. How many will want to take that chance with an upstart?

I'm not talking about government mandates but an industry/labor negotiated settlement that sets a baseline. Airlines benefit by having fixed costs in regards to pilot labor and pilots benefit in a multitude of ways. The acutal pay rates would be negotiated from the minimum pay. Airlines can pay more than the min rate to attract pilots in scarce/boom times or they can pay them the minimum in leaner times.

I highly doubt anything like this would ever happen, but as with any pipe-dream, it is fun to think about. Pilots are their own worst enemies. Senior selling out junior; all about me's running around everywhere; under-cutters; scabs and so on. Why would management want to end this culture? They have gained huge pieces of the pie because of it.

 

[Ty Webb]

Maybe I am wrong, go ahead make the demands from AT to get what you want, I am just saying there maybe unintended consequences, that is all.

You missed the point, YIP. It wouldn't be just AirTran, it would be ALL carriers. Everyone pays at least the minimum. . . . . That's the point.

 

[carl p]

Put the management kool aid down YIP...

 

[pilotyip]

You missed the point, YIP. It wouldn't be just AirTran, it would be ALL carriers. Everyone pays at least the minimum. . . . . That's the point.

Oh I see a return to 1976 and regulation. Not union enforced but gov't enforced, kinda like a min wages for pilots. Life was good for a few pilots under regulation. There are probably 4-5 times as many pilot’s jobs now as there was in 1977. Back in reg time it was about 90% military that went to the majors. Dereg opened up a lot of airline job to non-military pilots. To return to regulation would raise ticket prices, reduce the number of passengers, and therefore reduce the number of pilots needed. Good for senior guys, not so good for everyone else. Hey go for it if it floats your boat.

 

[Dizel8]

SWA is not always the cheapest ticket, but has the perception of being the cheapest. Same with AirTran. many people just go to the airline's proprietary site and book.

If you go on most search fare search engines, the only major airline that doesn't show up is SWA, and as you said, many times they are not the cheapest, however, kudos to SWA for making the travelling public believe they always are and making people book on them without researching fares.

As for the cheapest ticket being the allure, sometime it is, however, many will gladly pay a a few bucks more for a direct flight, for a bit more legroom, assigned seats or better departure and arrival times.

 

[Dizel8]

There are probably 4-5 times as many pilot’s jobs now as there was in 1977.

Yep and probably 4 or 5 times more passengers today than in 1977, yet the airlines continues to be in a financially precarious situation. Which leads us to the next question, do you honestly believe, that if every ticket, on every airline cost $30 more tomorrow, that you would see a drastic drop off in passengers?

I for one am not buying it, airfares, even if $30 higher would still be historically cheap, particularily if adjusted for inflation. Sure, some people would contemplate taking the car, but the time loss, the cost of gas and sometime hotel cost wouldn't be worth it, NY-LA in a car, 3 days of great fun. How about the wife and kids NY to Mouse world, oh yeah!

4 People can fly from NY to LAX and return for $1120, or they can drive 3 days each way for a cost of, back of the envelope math, $1024. Yep, airline travel certainly is overpriced! Never mind the fact, that with all that driving, a weeks vacation would turn into 24 hrs in LA before said people turns around and go back.

Better yet, let's take Amtrak, a goverment subsidized bussiness that you and I are paying for. It's going to be coach seats, not very pleasant for 3 days each way but cheaper and after all, it is all about cheap, well that little jaunt is a meager $1800.

I know, I know, that airline ticket is looking better and better, but there has got to be a even cheaper way, oh yeah, I got it, Greyhound. Sure it isn't great sitting on a bus for 2.5 days each way with the wife and two bored kids, but think of all the money we'll save, enough for a hotel night or two, hmmm, now let's see, 4 people NYC to LAX....WTH, it's $1464.

"Hey honey, I found a really great airfare for the four of us!"

There is a price to be paid for convenience and time savings, one that doesn't involve the new hire F/O being able to collect food stamps! Of course, you being management, you probably diasgree with that!

 

[pilotyip]

drastic drop?

Yep and probably 4 or 5 times more passengers today than in 1977, that if every ticket, on every airline cost $30 more tomorrow, that you would see a drastic drop off in passengers?

"Hey honey, I found a really great airfare for the four of us!"

There is a price to be paid for convenience and time savings, one that doesn't involve the new hire F/O being able to collect food stamps! Of course, you being management, you probably disagree with that!

Define drastic drop? 5%, that would result in 5% reduction in seats available. And 10% reduction in F/O's and a 5% reduction in CA seats. Air travel is a bargain coast to coast, no doubt, but lets look at DTW -TPA/ MCO, busy route. It can be easily driven in about 16 hours, compared to 9 hours on AT. You 1 hr drive from to arrive 2 hrs early to fly to ATL, 1.5 hour, 1 hour changes planes 1.5 hour to TPA, 1 hr wait for baggage and pick up rental car 1 hr drive to the condo. For a family of 4, the $30 per seat will be a motivator to drive. I know pilots have trouble thinking that anyone could be crazy enough to want to drive when they could fly. But many people view it as an alternative to flying. If prices go up too much many will elect not to travel at all, after most people are not as well off as airline pilots. This is not a management view this just an observation from talking to family, neighbors, and others. Pilot should do whatever they think is best for themselves, Adam Smith's way, but there are unintended consequences of the market movement that are well beyond the ability of any group to dictate how the market will react. If you fly because you like to, you don’t worry about this stuff.

 

[Mamma]

You are correct YIP. If you fly because you like to, don't worry about this stuff. If you have a family to take care of; care about the profession or want to help improve quality of life then please worry about this stuff. Apathy is no answer if you care. But, if you fly just because you love it (I call that a hobby), have a pension from the man (mil pension) or whatever reason, I guess you don't have to worry. Have fun!