Aircraft's and Pilot Seniority

[shon7]

Couple of questions -

when an airline starts parking its aircraft/ selling them off - eg: UAL and the 747's - how does the seniority/ flying work. Per my information, at UAL the 747 was for the seniormost pilots. Once the 747's are parked would these pilots have to train all over again for command in the 777's - or how would this work.

Finally, once someone is promoted to a Captain (say in a 737) does he move up as a captain. Or will he have to train as an FO in the next category of aircraft before being given command (say 757).

Thanks in advance for your responses.

 

[flywithruss]

It's all about seniority ...

AIRLINE LESSON NUMBER ONE .... SENIORITY.

It's all about seniority. At any given airline, every pilot has a seniority number ... the guy who has been there the longest is number 1, all the way down to the newest new hire, who would have the largest number. Pilot 1 picks any position he wants (a position equals a domicile, an aircraft type, and a seat, such as ORD 747 CA), Pilot 2 picks what he wants, etc. This occurs all the way to the bottom ... meaning that the junior guys get whatever is left. Generally speaking this means the more senior guys are captains and fly the larger airplanes ... since they want to earn more money. However, there are lots of exceptions. Allow me to use an extremely hypothetical example to illustrate.

Joe Pilot is hired by United Airlines. He is assigned as a 737 first officer because that's where the company needs him (all the current pilots have picked their positions as described above and 737 FO is what's left). Other pilots are hired behind Joe as time goes on. Joe gets based in ORD, but commutes from Sacramento because his wife has a good job there. As Joe's seniority grows, he chooses to change his base to SFO or LAX so his commute is easier.

After a few years flying the 737 Joe is ready for a change. He chooses to become an FO on the 757, does that for a while. Now Joe is at a crossroads. He is in the "middle of the pack" seniority-wise. His seniority will allow him to hold 737 CA or 777 FO. It is a lifestyle choice ... would he rather fly domestic as captain, or do international flying instead.

Cut ahead some more years ... Joe is now very senior, and a captain on the 747. The company parks all their 747s, so Joe is "displaced" ... this means his position (domicile, aircraft, seat) no longer exists. He may bid any available position ... perhaps he will now fly the 767 or the 777. If he were less senior, perhaps there would be no available captain's seats, and he'd have to bid as an FO. Clear as mud, right?

Most airlines have a clause in the contract prohibiting pilots from downgrading voluntarily ... i.e., once you become a captain, you stay a captain. Obviously, in times such as these when people are being furloughed, people are "involuntarily" displaced from captain to FO.

Hope this helps a little bit. Good luck!

R

 

[skirt]

Shon7,

Thanks for your interest. I'll do my best to explain it to you, since I am in the middle of the musical chairs as we speak, at United.

In general it used to be at United the bigger the airplane, the higher the pay. Also, in general that captains make more than first officers. Bids up in seats or equipment went by seniority as they came available. Many pilots would bid for the highest paying position, while other pilots chose a lesser position in exchange for having a better schedule. The highest paying postition was 747-400 Captain and lowest paying was 737-300 F/O, and 777 F/O would make about the same as a 737-300 Captain. There was a two year seat lock if you changed planes, and most pilots did change every two-three years, as they moved up. A typical progression might have been 727 S/O (now gone), 737 F/O, 757 F/O, 777 F/O, A320 Cap, 757 Cap, 777 Cap, 747 Cap.

Now everything is topsy-turvy as the cycle is going backwards. There is no movement up. As planes are parked, and pilots furloughed, pilots are bumping backward. Due to lack of planning from the top, nobody has a clue where the end is, and pilots are being bumped from plane to plane. Many have involuntarily endured 3-4 different plane changes (each with a 5-6 week school) in the last 18 months. Not a productive way to run an airline, that is for sure.

To top it off, many of the co-pilots I now fly with, are new to the 737, after just coming off the A320, and are expecting to be furloughed in a month or two. These poor guys and gals had to endure a 5 week school just to fly 1 month on the new plane before furlough. I don't get it. The company is wasting so much money it is crazy. I'm on a trip now, and the co-pilot I am flying with expects to be furloughed in February, and so does her husband who is on the bottom of the list at American. However, she fully expects that she will be forced to go to school on the Airbus before she is sent out the door, at a waste of $30K or more.

On the other end, the company said a year ago that the 747-400 was too expensive to operate, so they bumped a bunch of Captains back to the 777. Meanwhile, many captains have retired, and the company as renegotiated leases so that the 777 is now the more expensive plane, and they are now bumping the 777 Captains back to the 747!

The pay scales have been changed as well. The 737 and A320 pay the same, and the 777 and 747 pay the same. Theoretically, that is to keep pilots from bidding another plane for pay. Right now, however, the company is not saving money because they keep bumping pilots back and forth. It is a mess. When this game of muscial chairs started there were 10,000 pilots. There are now about 8,500 pilots. I just read a schedule report that said 7,900 pilots have been through at least one school since 9/11, and at least half of them have been through more than one school (most involunarily).

So far, I have been lucky. I've been on only one plane since 9/11, the 737, though I have gone from senior to junior. I'm not a big fan of chasing the dollar, nor am I a fan of going through school just because. Right now I am sittling tight to see what happens next.

I hope this answers your question.

Skirt

 

[Cardinal]

No, No. In the case of the parked 747s, well obviously those pilots had outlived their usefulness. As the fleet shrank they were taken out back, thrown up against the wall and shot.

 

[rjcap]

No, No. In the case of the parked 747s, well obviously those pilots had outlived their usefulness. As the fleet shrank they were taken out back, thrown up against the wall and shot.

That is fckn beautiful !!! LOL