Aircraft management pricing

[gern_blanston]

Agreed. Sounds like an idea thought up by someone who drives around with their foglights on when it's not foggy.

 

[bailout]

There are many advantages to going with a big management company like CitationAir or NetJets. The majority of their growth over the last 2-3 years has been in the managed jet side of the business. They must be doing something right..

 

[Gulfstream 200]

There are many advantages to going with a big management company like CitationAir or NetJets. The majority of their growth over the last 2-3 years has been in the managed jet side of the business. They must be doing something right..

List those "many advantages?"

We already settled the "save money on fuel and training" portion.

 

[gern_blanston]

Well, there's the cool 'XOJet' luggage tags...

 

[rondo]

I am getting a midsized jet aircraft (with a bunch of partners). I've had a few proposals for management come my way and I'm Interested in how they are pricing, because they are very different. Anyone know how they derive numbers for management pricing? We only want it under part 91 for now.

Thanks in advance for your expertise.

Stay away from A/C Management Companies. They are notorious for ripping off clients. Remember you get what you pay for.



I suggest find the right people and have them form there own corporation managing your A/C.

 

[ksu_aviator]

What constitutes ripping someone off? Charging a fee for doing a job the owner doesn't want to do? There is a lot that goes into managing an aircraft from tracking maintenance to paying salaries and hangar rent to insurance. Some people just want to dump that off on someone and if they pay a fee for it they are fine with it.

I'm not saying all management companies are honest, but it does seem that some are accusing management companies of being crooked for doing a job the owner wants to delegate. If these owners want to delegate, then let them delegate.

I've not priced many aircraft, but I know the last individual I worked for wanted to charter the aircraft and so he looked into management companies. They ranged from $1500 to $3000 for a 16,000 lb turbo prop (plus expenses like the pilot and hangar). I imagine that the larger the aircraft, the more you'll pay, but I don't know that for a fact.

 

[rondo]

What constitutes ripping someone off? Charging a fee for doing a job the owner doesn't want to do? There is a lot that goes into managing an aircraft from tracking maintenance to paying salaries and hangar rent to insurance. Some people just want to dump that off on someone and if they pay a fee for it they are fine with it.

I'm not saying all management companies are honest, but it does seem that some are accusing management companies of being crooked for doing a job the owner wants to delegate. If these owners want to delegate, then let them delegate.

I've not priced many aircraft, but I know the last individual I worked for wanted to charter the aircraft and so he looked into management companies. They ranged from $1500 to $3000 for a 16,000 lb turbo prop (plus expenses like the pilot and hangar). I imagine that the larger the aircraft, the more you'll pay, but I don't know that for a fact.

I'm not questioning your ethics personally, but the vast majority of these management companies are run by scoundrels.

 

[ksu_aviator]

I'm not questioning your ethics personally, but the vast majority of these management companies are run by scoundrels.

What's your evidence?

 

[rondo]

OK Here we go.

What's your evidence?

OK here we go.

Client pays for hanger and a/c is left out in the sun or bad weather.

Charge client 85K and want to pay the pilot 50k.

Fudge insurance records to get (20k) gear draggers insurable.

Offer clients a cheaper alternative by doing pencil whipped SIC type ratings at the FSDO when no training was ever conducted.

Having crew conduct international flights with no handler.

If mx is in house, robbing the client on labor.

Bending all the rules including safety to keep the client happy. Example. "Left tube is out, just run a reversion. Now go fly into TEB with bad weather!"

Let me know if you need more examples.

 

[rondo]

Lets get back to the fact that there's gonna be multiple owners. Just wait till that Jet goes in for a "C" check?

 

[gern_blanston]

I manage a couple of non-turbojet airplanes for an owner. It takes one hour a week per airplane on a bad week. If you have a jet, and a D.O.M., it's not much different. If you have a jet and DON'T have a D.O.M., you're still the guy driving around with his foglights on when it's not foggy. Hire good people and let them do their jobs. The last thing you need is a layer of B/S between you and your pilots and your air machine.

 

[CorpCaptain]

OK here we go.

Client pays for hanger and a/c is left out in the sun or bad weather.

Charge client 85K and want to pay the pilot 50k.

Fudge insurance records to get (20k) gear draggers insurable.

Offer clients a cheaper alternative by doing pencil whipped SIC type ratings at the FSDO when no training was ever conducted.

Having crew conduct international flights with no handler.

If mx is in house, robbing the client on labor.

Bending all the rules including safety to keep the client happy. Example. "Left tube is out, just run a reversion. Now go fly into TEB with bad weather!"

Let me know if you need more examples.

Hahahaha. +1. How long did that post take? 20sec?

 

[rondo]

Hahahaha. +1. How long did that post take? 20sec?

21 seconds!

 

[gret]

"The last thing you need is a layer of B/S between you and your pilots and your air machine."

What does this mean? Clueless and exactly why pilots are viewed as friggen buffoons. Their view of self importance is overwhelming. Go to the NBC site and watch the clip tonight about pilots having lost their skills to fly a plane.

Pilots are usually trained to fly an airplane...what makes them qualified to manage a business (i.e flight department)? Do you know how to prepare a budget, do you know what the current hull rates for insurance are, do you really know the FAR's and tax rules for personal use of an a/c (most 91 outfits are illegal, they just haven't been caught), what do you know about ERISA, etc?

If you are the one in charge of the plane, it is always your fault when the sucker doesn't work, if you won't bend the rules as the owner asks for, if Jet A goes to $8/gallon and you said it would only cost $5...do you really want your butt on the line for this type of nonsense?

The fact is that most owners could care less about their pilots, other than they know how to fly. You think they like you, but the fact is your a glorified chauffeur in their minds. It's a fact and you whacking in the shower on the 4th of July if you think differently.

How many pilots have become a successful CEO of a company? Google it and there are exactly zero, and Gordon doesn't qualify.

Now with that being said, a pilot is so much smarter than the boss...right?

 

[Kingairrick]

"

How many pilots have become a successful CEO of a company? Google it and there are exactly zero, and Gordon doesn't qualify.

Now with that being said, a pilot is so much smarter than the boss...right?

If you are going to be an ass, please check your facts. There are several CEOs of Fortune 500 companies that started their careers as pilots, usually in the military. I happen to work for a very large ($17B), publicly traded company whose founder and current chairman began his career as a bush pilot in Alaska.

As to your point, not all pilots are high school dropouts. Many of us have advanced college degrees in management disciplines.

 

[BoilerUP]

"The last thing you need is a layer of B/S between you and your pilots and your air machine."

What does this mean? Clueless and exactly why pilots are viewed as friggen buffoons. Their view of self importance is overwhelming. Go to the NBC site and watch the clip tonight about pilots having lost their skills to fly a plane.

Pilots are usually trained to fly an airplane...what makes them qualified to manage a business (i.e flight department)? Do you know how to prepare a budget, do you know what the current hull rates for insurance are, do you really know the FAR's and tax rules for personal use of an a/c (most 91 outfits are illegal, they just haven't been caught), what do you know about ERISA, etc?

If you are the one in charge of the plane, it is always your fault when the sucker doesn't work, if you won't bend the rules as the owner asks for, if Jet A goes to $8/gallon and you said it would only cost $5...do you really want your butt on the line for this type of nonsense?

What makes anybody qualified to manage any segment of a business?

Managing an aircraft is not hard. Creating a budget is not hard. Shopping & negotiating for insurance (and hangar and fuel and _____) is not hard. Learning FARs and tax rules is not hard. Interacting with Feds for RVSM/MNPS OpSpecs approval is not hard.

Obviously, not talking out of school about things one doesn't know about *is* hard.

There are many inexpensive (or free) resources that are readily available to fill in any blanks in those areas, from the Darden Executive Education 'Managing the Corporate Aviation Function' program to "Business Accounting For Dummies" and everything in between.

It was said best in "Good Will Hunting":

See, the sad thing about a guy like you is in 50 years you're gonna start doin some thinkin on your own and you're gonna come up with the fact that there are two certainties in life. One, don't do that. And Two, you dropped a hundred and fifty grand on a f'in education you coulda got for a dollar fifty in late charges at the public library

Only a spineless, limp-d!ck pilot with a low self esteem and low self worth is going to let Mr. Big roll him on everything, especially when it comes to operational issues. Which really isn't that different than a spineless, limp-d!ck middle manager with an MBA or Accounting degree doing the exact.same.thing.

Again, managing an aircraft is NOT hard. If a corporation or individual hires the right person to manage their asset, that person will be more loyal and save them more money than any management company could.

That said, if somebody just wants to write a check and fly without 'headaches', and is willing to pay a hefty premium to do so, that is their prerogative...

 

[Gulfstream 200]

What makes anybody qualified to manage any segment of a business?

Managing an aircraft is not hard. Creating a budget is not hard. Shopping & negotiating for insurance (and hangar and fuel and _____) is not hard. Learning FARs and tax rules is not hard. Interacting with Feds for RVSM/MNPS OpSpecs approval is not hard.

Obviously, not talking out of school about things one doesn't know about *is* hard.

There are many inexpensive (or free) resources that are readily available to fill in any blanks in those areas, from the Darden Executive Education 'Managing the Corporate Aviation Function' program to "Business Accounting For Dummies" and everything in between.

It was said best in "Good Will Hunting":

See, the sad thing about a guy like you is in 50 years you're gonna start doin some thinkin on your own and you're gonna come up with the fact that there are two certainties in life. One, don't do that. And Two, you dropped a hundred and fifty grand on a f'in education you coulda got for a dollar fifty in late charges at the public library

Only a spineless, limp-d!ck pilot with a low self esteem and low self worth is going to let Mr. Big roll him on everything, especially when it comes to operational issues. Which really isn't that different than a spineless, limp-d!ck middle manager with an MBA or Accounting degree doing the exact.same.thing.

Again, managing an aircraft is NOT hard. If a corporation or individual hires the right person to manage their asset, that person will be more loyal and save them more money than any management company could.

That said, if somebody just wants to write a check and fly without 'headaches', and is willing to pay a hefty premium to do so, that is their prerogative...

This!!!

Its so pefect I have a tear in my eye..and I'm known to be a pretty sensitive guy...

:bawling:

 

[rjpilot7667]

For those that answered the question thanks a lot.

 

[bailout]

OK here we go.

Client pays for hanger and a/c is left out in the sun or bad weather.

Charge client 85K and want to pay the pilot 50k.

Fudge insurance records to get (20k) gear draggers insurable.

Offer clients a cheaper alternative by doing pencil whipped SIC type ratings at the FSDO when no training was ever conducted.

Having crew conduct international flights with no handler.

If mx is in house, robbing the client on labor.

Bending all the rules including safety to keep the client happy. Example. "Left tube is out, just run a reversion. Now go fly into TEB with bad weather!"

Let me know if you need more examples.

While I do I agree that probably happens at the lower end, it certainly does not happen at a major company like CA, Flex, NJ. You get what you pay for.
Why would you want the hassle of worrying about taking care of the plane and all that goes with it? ( like mx, customs, insurance, etc. etc ) If I were in that position, I would certainly rather pay a large established company to handle all of that. I would just want to call them and say, I need a plane to take me from XXX to XXX on this date/time. And you know what? They are there waiting for me. I would never ever have to worry about anything plane related. No rules are being bent, no mx issues "overlooked". If something happens mx-wise, they simply send another of their 100+ airplanes to recover the trip. <-- That is worth a lot! Yes they all have handlers for Intl, both pilots are type rated and planes are well maintained.
That being said, If I were a pilot getting together with a few other pilots who all wanted to own an airplane, then yes, do it yourself. If I'm a non pilot owner, then I would go with a management company.

 

[ksu_aviator]

OK here we go.

Client pays for hanger and a/c is left out in the sun or bad weather.

Charge client 85K and want to pay the pilot 50k.

Fudge insurance records to get (20k) gear draggers insurable.

Offer clients a cheaper alternative by doing pencil whipped SIC type ratings at the FSDO when no training was ever conducted.

Having crew conduct international flights with no handler.

If mx is in house, robbing the client on labor.

Bending all the rules including safety to keep the client happy. Example. "Left tube is out, just run a reversion. Now go fly into TEB with bad weather!"

Let me know if you need more examples.

Is that what passes for evidence?