Aircraft management pricing

[gern_blanston]

I'm gonna' have to agree with the G Man on this one: You'll have to manage the management company WAAYYYY more than you'd have to manage a good chief pilot. Plus... Your crazy idea to have 8 partners is going to be much more difficult to manage than a good flight department.

 

[LJ45]

If you have your foglights on,
and it's not foggy,
you are a doofus. .

Does that also make me a "doofus" if I have my nav lights on during daylight?

 

[steveg]

RJ, it's like this: Everyone involved with this is going to get their "cut" in some shape or form. A mgmt. company has lots of people involved and therefore lots of hands in the pocket. They try to make up for this by undercutting pilot and maintenance salaries.

On paper it may look like a cost neutral decision and you may think you are done with the employee problems. But in reality by signing on w/a mgmt company you brought more people into the fold. These people are paid less, treated like garbage, and have very little motivation to help you and your group in any way.

A good, happy, and motivated Captain will save you his salary and more in operating costs every year and you will only have to deal with him. A po'd, micro-managed, weak Captain will cost you his salary several times over and will refer you to xxx or yyy or zzz at the mgmt company every time you have an issue.

You decide which is better.

 

[gern_blanston]

Does that also make me a "doofus" if I have my nav lights on during daylight?

Nope. Not the same at all.

 

[gret]

Fact...there are good mgmt companies and bad ones. Also a fact...there are good Captains running flight departments and bad ones. Being on a corporate board you won't hear too much good about mgmt companies.

Take what you heard here, get proposals from a couple of mgmt companies (e.g. FirstFlight, EJM, Jet Aviation, Executive Flightways, etc) and compare. Get references and make a decision based on what you need. A third party mgmt company should bring expertise to the process, but a good one costs money. Leaving it in the hands of one individual is risky, especially if that person has a character defect of any kind.

 

[rjacobs]

I did some cost analysis on this early this year and from what I could tell, at least with the mgmt company I was talking to, it was close to cost neutral when you figure in EVERYTHING(and that list is long), but I was talking to a very respected mgmt company in the city I am in.

However my personal opinion on the matter mirrors most guys on here, hire a chief pilot and do it yourself. Pay him an extra 20-30k and you will get better service. Most of the fleet discount stuff you can get on your own by signing up for various fuel cards and what not. I didnt notice much difference in price between the fuel costs for the mgmt company vs. on our own with a couple of different fuel cards. Same with everything else. Plus you get some guys that will work harder for you because they have a stake in the operation. With a mgmt company hiring a couple pilots for you, they dont have a stake and thus dont necessarily care how things really run.

 

[Gulfstream 200]

I did some cost analysis on this early this year and from what I could tell, at least with the mgmt company I was talking to, it was close to cost neutral when you figure in EVERYTHING(and that list is long), but I was talking to a very respected mgmt company in the city I am in.

However my personal opinion on the matter mirrors most guys on here, hire a chief pilot and do it yourself. Pay him an extra 20-30k and you will get better service. Most of the fleet discount stuff you can get on your own by signing up for various fuel cards and what not. I didnt notice much difference in price between the fuel costs for the mgmt company vs. on our own with a couple of different fuel cards. Same with everything else. Plus you get some guys that will work harder for you because they have a stake in the operation. With a mgmt company hiring a couple pilots for you, they dont have a stake and thus dont necessarily care how things really run.

Agree!

A 3 pilot, one airplane department can get equal (or better?) fuel/training prices than any management company as everything is highly negotiable, you just have to have people willing to work hard at it....which means pay and treat them well. Amazing concept.

Not everyone, but the majority of your "lead pilots" at management companies would rather take the plane themselves or jump ship to another account. The games played between owner/mgmt co/pilots are horrendous and often lead to quick burnout.

I'm far more interested in seeing how 8 owners, a used midsize jet, a mgmt company, and the desire to turn a profit with info taken from ProPilot magazine works out...

Imagine interviewing for a postion and they tell you there are 8 owners?

:crying:

 

[gret]

Hope it works out.

BTW, virtually all a/c mgmt/charter companies were formed by pilots who started off managing 1 a/c operations. Based on the critical nature of the mgmt company comments, one has to wonder what sent these guys to the dark side?

 

[rice]

Hmmm, 8 owners and only pt 91 flying??? How many hrs, days, RON's are you planning on flying per year? Then how many pilots are you planning on hiring?
If you go heavy on the flying and light on the crew, you will most certainly need a management company. However that's not how I'd run it.
Simply put, if you're not going the 135 route then staff it appropriately with a chief pilot who can handle the paperwork end of managing the operation and do some OCCASIONAL flying and enough other pilots to do the bulk of the trips and SOME non-flying duties.
The biggest hassle I see with your kind of setup is, who's going to be responsible for pay/benefits of the employees? If none of the high net-worth types wants to bring the crew under the umbrella of their company then you might be stuck with creating some type of aviation company and then having the individual owners fund it but that might require more work from the HR side than it's worth.
Not an easy task.

 

[BigMike]

I'm far more interested in seeing how 8 owners, a used midsize jet, a mgmt company, and the desire to turn a profit with info taken from ProPilot magazine works out...

Yeah, that whole deal sounds like a bad idea