Airbus crash in Queens documentary

[ultrarunner]

It's on National Geographic right now.

 

[CitationLover]

pretty much said the FO crashed the airplane due to AA's AAMP. it also stated that the ntsb interviewed other AA CA's who had flown with the FO and stated he was aggressive with the rudders with them also.

of course when they show the AAMP clip, it clearly shows an airplane banked >90deg and him basically explaining the simple concept of top rudder. nowhere in it does he state to use the rudder if the airplane is banked at 20deg.

 

[ultrarunner]

pretty much said the FO crashed the airplane due to AA's AAMP. it also stated that the ntsb interviewed other AA CA's who had flown with the FO and stated he was aggressive with the rudders with them also.....

I found that an interesting comment also. In what context was this guy "agressive" with the rudders??? Flying the line? Training environment?

Last time I used a rudder with any authority was flying a tail wheel airplane. I'm thinking the yaw damper is smarter than me most of the time.

 

[Beechnut]

Hired at AA at 24. What kind of experience did he get before that?

S.

 

[CitationLover]

I found that an interesting comment also. In what context was this guy "agressive" with the rudders??? Flying the line? Training environment?

Last time I used a rudder with any authority was flying a tail wheel airplane. I'm thinking the yaw damper is smarter than me most of the time.

i don't know, this is all the special said those interviews stated. they stressed the AAMP was stressing the rudder, especially in the simulator training and the FO simply reverted to this.

looking at the NTSB recreation i see no reason why to use the rudder (even according to the AAMP video, but who knows what AA's instructors were saying in the sim). some have suggested the data doesn't record "who" (ie implying perhaps turbulenece or some air phenomena moved it) moves the rudder, but i think that perhaps is a little disingenuous.

 

[80drvr]

i don't know, this is all the special said those interviews stated. they stressed the AAMP was stressing the rudder, especially in the simulator training and the FO simply reverted to this.

looking at the NTSB recreation i see no reason why to use the rudder (even according to the AAMP video, but who knows what AA's instructors were saying in the sim). some have suggested the data doesn't record "who" (ie implying perhaps turbulenece or some air phenomena moved it) moves the rudder, but i think that perhaps is a little disingenuous.

AAMP was good training with the focus on how to best fly an airplane out of a situation requiring advanced maneuvering. One of the points was that the rudder is the most effective flight control at high AOA. The missing piece of information was the manufacturer's knowlege that the tail could be overstressed by rudder reversal at or below Va. If read the entire NTSB report, you might come away with more questions than answers (in contrast to the TV show).

AAMP was developed in the context of several transport aircraft mishaps that might have been avoidable with more training.

 

[ultrarunner]

AAMP was good training with the focus on how to best fly an airplane out of a situation requiring advanced maneuvering. One of the points was that the rudder is the most effective flight control at high AOA. The missing piece of information was the manufacturer's knowlege that the tail could be overstressed by rudder reversal at or below Va. If read the entire NTSB report, you might come away with more questions than answers (in contrast to the TV show).

AAMP was developed in the context of several transport aircraft mishaps that might have been avoidable with more training.

Did this flight reach a critical angle of attack?

 

[CitationLover]

AAMP was good training with the focus on how to best fly an airplane out of a situation requiring advanced maneuvering. One of the points was that the rudder is the most effective flight control at high AOA. The missing piece of information was the manufacturer's knowlege that the tail could be overstressed by rudder reversal at or below Va. If read the entire NTSB report, you might come away with more questions than answers (in contrast to the TV show).

AAMP was developed in the context of several transport aircraft mishaps that might have been avoidable with more training.

i know i've seen the video (albeit the edited new one). i am simply reporting what the show stated. regardless of AAMP, airbus rudder questionability, etc and going on basic airmanship, i would question any rudder usage when an airplane is simply banked 20-25 deg initially (unless coordination is considered, but then rudder usage would be minimal to center the ball/brick). i think the AAMP video is stressing an "unusual attitude" recovery (as you mentioned a high AOA, which is what i think they were stressing but with regards to lowering AOA wrt a rudder hardover using the united and usair accidents as an example), which the video recreation clearly shows never happened.

again here is another reference to the CA's questioning of the FO's (it was in a 727) prior history of "aggressiveness" on the rudders. (http://www.planeandpilotmag.com/content/2005/apr/ntsb_pedal_medal.html)

An American Airlines captain who flew several times with the first officer on Boeing 727s told investigators that during one flight sometime in 1997, the first officer had been “very aggressive” on the rudder pedals after a wake turbulence encounter.

 

[Ben Franklin]

you guys left out some acronyms, I think...

:erm:



Sincerely,

B. Franklin

 

[80drvr]

you guys left out some acronyms, I think...

:erm:



Sincerely,

B. Franklin

AAMP=Advanced Aircraft Maneuvering Program

Do you need TV and AOA deciphered?

 

[Prop Trash]

What is top rudder? Excuse my ignorance.

 

[ultrarunner]

The rudder that's on top...as in when the airplane is 90 degrees to the horizon...bank angle.

 

[CitationLover]

What is top rudder? Excuse my ignorance.

when an airplane is banked 90deg the rudder is basically your elevator. you step on the top rudder (ie 90deg banked to the right, then top is left and vice versa) to keep the nose up.

 

[Gorilla]

when an airplane is banked 90deg the rudder is basically your elevator. you step on the top rudder (ie 90deg banked to the right, then top is left and vice versa) to keep the nose up.

With all due respect, that's a bit simplistic. What top rudder does, especially with some swept-back wings at high AOA, is create a powerful rolling moment. If the jet was 90 degrees right bank, then left rudder will in theory force a roll back to wings level, but only if the AOA remains high; the wings must be loaded up. No AOA, no rudder roll, and at 90 degrees of bank, that nose is headed towards terra firma; nothing you can do about it.

In other words, unless you are in some exotic acro aircraft doing a knife-edge, if you roll to 90 degrees and push slightly forward to reduce AOA, the nose is going to drop like a rock despite all the top rudder in the world.

 

[CitationLover]

With all due respect, that's a bit simplistic. What top rudder does, especially with some swept-back wings at high AOA, is create a powerful rolling moment. If the jet was 90 degrees right bank, then left rudder will in theory force a roll back to wings level, but only if the AOA remains high; the wings must be loaded up. No AOA, no rudder roll, and at 90 degrees of bank, that nose is headed towards terra firma; nothing you can do about it.

In other words, unless you are in some exotic acro aircraft doing a knife-edge, if you roll to 90 degrees and push slightly forward to reduce AOA, the nose is going to drop like a rock despite all the top rudder in the world.

i tried to keep it simplistic since a generic question was asked, but thank you for a better explanation.

here is a good description of some basic acrobatic manuevers and the flight control positions, albeit in a pitts and not a swept back aircraft.
http://www.skyhighway.com/~acropilot/Lessons/2.html