Airbus Captian at 25....

[pilotyip]

Lear 70 was scared in a PFT dream when he was a child and he has never gotten over it. I bet he even gets the terms SCAB and PFT mixed up. Oh never...

 

[Lear70]

Actually he's making me laugh! You guys just can't stand it when someone goes ANY other route BESIDES CFI or military; the blood just pulses in the little vein on the side of your heads!

So you're one of those guys who WOULD PFT if you had the money, is that what you're saying? Do you mean to tell us that you ENDORSE PFT as a valid, respectable way to get into an airline job faster? PLEASE don't tell me you really mean that 'cause I was looking at all those different aircraft you were flying, knowing you're a FNG to aviation, but thinking you MIGHT, just MIGHT simply be uneducated to the pitfalls of PFT.

I may very likely go the CFI route myself, but if an opportunity came long that allowed otherwise, I would avoid it.

There's plenty of opportunities to avoid it, just shell out tens of thousands of dollars and whore yourself to some bottom-feeder company that will give you a couple hundred hours in the right seat of a 1900 somewhere and you, too, can leapfrog all your buddies by 3 or 4 years while they gain REAL DECISION-MAKING EXPERIENCE, all while you become a burden to the Captain you're flying with when you have a grand total of 500 hours total time.

I copied and pasted my text directly from the article, so why don't you clam up and get back on your high horse?

So did I, but you still refuse to acknowledge that FACT or respond to it in a coherent manner. Or can't you? Come on... you can do it. Summon some analytical skills and debate the issue as I have in each post, rather than trying to antagonize me into a pissing match.

Oh and my background? Why would I be sensitive about a young captain?

Because you have ZERO, that is ZILCH, NADA experience in the REAL FLYING WORLD we work in every day and I personally believe you're in your early 20's and, for lack of a better phrase, young, dumb, and full of cum. Flying bug smashers working on your ratings is NOT real flying experience; being a CFI, flying cancelled checks single pilot in nasty weather without an autopilot, or flying fighter missions where you may DIE and/or have to kill others ARE examples of real flying experience. When you've done that for a couple thousand hours, get back to us

 

[Lear70]

Lear 70 was scared in a PFT dream when he was a child and he has never gotten over it. I bet he even gets the terms SCAB and PFT mixed up. Oh never...

Oh, is THAT how you got to where you are YIP?

That explains an AWFUL lot...

And no, a SCAB is a completely different animal, although I believe they're closely related through mentality, specifically a lack of ethics.

I say ethics because that IS what it boils down to UNLESS the PFT guy didn't know about its impact on the aviation world BEFORE they PFT'd. There are simply guys and gals out there who are never told until after they've done it and I don't get as irritated as those people, it's the ones who DID PFT and say they'd do it again.

 

[pilotyip]

Lear 70 how pure is your hate of PFT, when jumpseating to you ask the Capt if he PFTed, and then get off the aitrplane if he did, There a 1000's of Captains how who started in PFT because as I posted eariler is was very common in the mid 90's Good chance that around 1/4 or more of the Capts at AirTran are PFTers from Value Jet. Or does the need for a ride overcome your anti-PFT purity?

 

[CaptainMark]

i remember pay for training...what a bunch of crap...ever notice how salaries have gone in the toilet since pft started..guys lined up to pay for their training and then the companies realized these bozos would work for pennies..and i remember foreigners coming over and taking rt seat Lrjet jobs for nothing...that's right..NOTHING...but they would go back and get lufthanza jobs..not valuejet...pft sucks...employees were lol..and it has helped lead to the demise of this industry...i guess it bothers noone that even high paying salaries of fdx swa etc. are lower than say flying tigers salaries of the early 80s..the only thing pft guarantees you is LACK OF EXPERIENCE.

 

[pilotyip]

CaptMark, you may be right but PFT has basically gone away. This is still a great career and I still living my dream as a 5 yr old from 58 years ago.

 

[CaptainMark]

you are right it has basically gone away because pilots were finally refusing to do it..and guess what? the companies could afford it after all..and i agree..this is a great career but i also see how it can suck...lots of luck involved..good luck to you!

 

[Lear70]

Lear 70 how pure is your hate of PFT, when jumpseating to you ask the Capt if he PFTed, and then get off the aitrplane if he did, There a 1000's of Captains how who started in PFT because as I posted eariler is was very common in the mid 90's Good chance that around 1/4 or more of the Capts at AirTran are PFTers from Value Jet. Or does the need for a ride overcome your anti-PFT purity?

No, I don't get off a pilot's jumpseat if they PFT'd, nor do I refuse a trip with another pilot HERE who PFT'd, but I can certainly speak out to the FACTS of what PFT leads to, similar to CaptainMark, for our low-time pilots I was debating with earlier.

It's not dead, it's still alive and well, albeit in a different form. The only reason we probably don't STILL have PFT as widespread as the late 80's / early 90's is because there are still thousands of regional jobs that come available every year. If those jobs were to tighten up, I guarantee PCL would be first back on the PFT bandwagon if they could get away with it.

The only reason they stopped widespread PFT is because hiring at the majors started back up, the floodgates opened, and they couldn't staff enough people at the regional level with PFT'ers.

I'm surprised you'll sit here and debate that PFT was a GOOD thing, or try to tell us it's NOT still around when more than HALF of this airline's pilots have PFT'd and are STILL hiring PFT'ers.

Those are the FACTS. Why are you trying to say they're somehow untrue or invalid?

 

[pilotyip]

Lear 70 your anti-PFT stance is allowing you to read things into posts that are not there. I never said PFT was a good thing, I just said it was very common and many people had to resort to PFT in the mid-90's to get jobs. I turned down a PFT job at ACA in June of 1996, because they said I would be an F/O for about 3 years, I had money in the bank and could have afforded it, but could not afford to live on F/O wages. Turns out I would have made captain in about four months, such is hindsight. So I went to Zantop, as an L-188 Captain, a company that has been in business for decades. Six months later they pretended to close their doors to get a better contract from the Teamsters. Thank goodness for USA Jet.

 

[xdashdriver]

Ok...so how many people on here did NOT pay for their ratings through Multi-engine instrument commercial? Unless you have some sort of scholarship or went through the military, then EVERYONE pays to get their ratings correct?

What everyone fails to understand is that there are no "mom and pop" schools to get your ratings on the cheap in the UK. The UK CAA does not allow it. All commercial training needs to be done at an "approved" school on an "approved" course. The great majority of those schools are of the so-called "pilot-factory" type.

So he didn't get sponsored by an airline...most likely neither did any of you. Maybe there were no sponsorships available when he was going through training. Sponsorships come and go like the wind in the UK. So he took the only available route to him....he self-sponsored himself through Oxford Air Training just like you probably self-sponsored yourselves through the mom and pop school to get your rating. The reason he paid so much money? That's what it costs to train in the UK. Yes it's a top notch school....but he wouldn't have paid any less at any of the other 6 schools that can do commercial pilot training in the UK.

The article does not say he paid for his B737 training or his A320 type. When he started his airline career 7 years ago, those types of PFT programs were not the "in thing" so the likely thing is....he paid for his ratings just like you did...and then Aer Lingus paid for his training to become an FO with them. Even today, Direct Entry positions for qualified pilots in the UK usually do not require you to pay for your type rating, so the chances he paid for any training at GB Airways is very slim.

So I would like to know just exactly where did this guy "get it wrong"?? Where did he shortcut the "system"?? Sounds like he did it the same way you did it, only he was good enough to get an RAF Flying Scholarship. Those are not easy to get. I say kudos to this guy for living his dream and working hard to get where he got. The aviation world in the UK for someone working their way up the ranks the way he did is EXTREMELY competitive.

 

[Ty Webb]

How old's the youngest Airbus CA in the states? 45?

We've got some 29 year old Captains at AirTran . . . . and we have Check Airmen that are around 35, too.

The young Captains tend to do a good job . . . most of them were put through the wringer by the crusty ol' dudes in the Training Center.

 

[Lear70]

Lear 70 your anti-PFT stance is allowing you to read things into posts that are not there. I never said PFT was a good thing, I just said it was very common and many people had to resort to PFT in the mid-90's to get jobs.

It's not my stance that allows for the reading of pro-PFT into your responses, it the fact that you appear to be debating me about them which makes absolutely ZERO sense if you are, indeed, anti-PFT.

Ray, don't be an idiot. Gaining your basic ratings is NOT Pay-For-Training and you d*mn well know it. I LOVE when the liberal pro-PFT crowd tries to link the two.

Does EVERYONE have to have the basic ratings through Commercial Multiengine Instrument to get ANY aviation job? Yes.

Does EVERYONE have to pay $25,000 for some Part 121, 125, or 135 to give you ADDITIONAL training AFTER you have your basic ratings in order to get a job? NO.

If you don't understand that, then you probably don't possess the rudimentary intelligence to be in this career field.

Simple Litmus Test. If you've paid an EMPLOYER to give you training THAT THEY HAVE TO GIVE SOMEONE ANYWAY in order to operate their business AND THAT TRAINING IS COMPANY-SPECIFIC, then you have PFT'd.

 

[John2375]

"Because you have ZERO, that is ZILCH, NADA experience in the REAL FLYING WORLD we work in every day and I personally believe you're in your early 20's and, for lack of a better phrase, young, dumb, and full of cum."

Well, yes you're right - I don't have "real world" experience in the flying world, and actually I am anti-PFJ. As for anti-PFT, I am that too, although I think there are certain grey areas. I know you'll disagree, but I think places like http://www.multi-engine.net are not killing the industry; however Gulfstream and Key Lime, etc, are. If I had $25,000 to spend anyway I chose, NO I wouldn't do a PFT program -I'd either make a downpayment on a house for my family or buy my fiancee and myself newer cars or do something responsible w/it, thank you very much

As for the last portion of what you wrote - you're wrong on 2 out of 3 counts. I"m not young (maybe compared to you, don't know.. I'm 31), and I'm certainly not dumb!! I am, however, full of cum, and my fiancee thanks me for that on an almost daily basis

 

[Lear70]

and actually I am anti-PFJ. As for anti-PFT, I am that too, although I think there are certain grey areas. I know you'll disagree, but I think places like http://www.multi-engine.net are not killing the industry; however Gulfstream and Key Lime, etc, are.

I couldn't pull up the link you provided, but if it's just a buy cheap multiengine time, that's not "great", but not taking a job from someone at an airline who wouldn't PAY THE EMPLOYER to get it isn't in the same league, you're absolutely correct, and glad to hear your not thinking about PFT'ing!

If I had $25,000 to spend anyway I chose, NO I wouldn't do a PFT program -I'd either make a downpayment on a house for my family or buy my fiancee and myself newer cars or do something responsible w/it, thank you very much

Better ideas, good for you!

As for the last portion of what you wrote - you're wrong on 2 out of 3 counts. I"m not young (maybe compared to you, don't know.. I'm 31), and I'm certainly not dumb!! I am, however, full of cum, and my fiancee thanks me for that on an almost daily basis

Sounds like I am wrong, and I'm glad to hear it, and admit it. No, I'm 34, which could be argued as "young" by someone like Yip, but not so young I haven't been around enough to know the difference between right and wrong.

As for the last, I congratulate you (and I'm sure your fiancee' is appreciative), and I probably resemble that remark, been married 2 years and just had my 1st child - he's 3 months old. Great times!

Sorry if I got a little aggressive (touchy subject), and good luck to you!

 

[John2375]

:beer:

 

[-9Capt]

Ok...so how many people on here did NOT pay for their ratings through Multi-engine instrument commercial? Unless you have some sort of scholarship or went through the military, then EVERYONE pays to get their ratings correct?

There is a HUGH difference between paying for your licenses/ratings and paying an airline for the privilege of working for them.

 

[-9Capt]

We've got some 29 year old Captains at AirTran . . . . and we have Check Airmen that are around 35, too.

The young Captains tend to do a good job . . . most of them were put through the wringer by the crusty ol' dudes in the Training Center.

Ty, I made Capt at AirTran at 28. We have a few check airmen in their early 30's, I just had a line check by one last month. I learned a lot, sharp guy.

 

[Flyingdutchman]

A friend of mine (21) just got hired at British Airways (mainline A-320)....

280 hours total, no TR.

FD

 

[FlyBunny]

B757 F/o

Yep, few years ago they [BA] had one 21-year old (about 300 hours) go to right seat of a B757...so, there you go...stop bashing the ones with not enough time...if someone had a tough time getting in to the airlines or getting any job at all in the early 90's and waited a long time, it doesn't mean that many thousands of hours of some [described] experience should become the 'norm' for flying for regional airlines for the rest.

Like I said before...how many hours you've have flown has nothing to do with how good a pilot you are...

These US Airways 767 pilots at LHR who forgot to lower the landing gear and were ordered by the Tower to 'go around' have many thousands of hours under their belts.

More power to the younger ones who make to the top earlier than they should due to some perceived standards that exist in some people's mind and in the industry in general here in the US.
Bunny

 

[FlyBunny]

Southwest B737 Type required...

Lear70,

Just curious...how would you look at Southwest B737 Type requirement and those pilots (thousands and thousands) who spend money to get the type and become SWA pilots...any different than PFT?

Go on, have a go.
Bunny

Just remember they do not have a chance to fly the line if they don't have B737 type. Until they spend money on B737 Type...

 

[Rokit88]

FOs in europe are only 2 stripers? WTF!

God, I hate all that stripes and wings and stuff.. It to old school for me.


Nice language editor you people have on here. You cant say S H I T ( it comes out (no pun) as 'shoot'

 

[Lear70]

Lear70,

Just curious...how would you look at Southwest B737 Type requirement and those pilots (thousands and thousands) who spend money to get the type and become SWA pilots...any different than PFT?

Nope, that's PFT also. Yet another shining example of a requirement that would go away if people would quit doing it.

I still don't quite grasp their reasoning for having the type to begin with if they're going to put people through the full ground and sim training anyway, but I digress.

The only reason I got mine is because the government paid for it when I got laid off - WIA money (Workforce Improvement Act).

I hadn't applied to Southwest before I got that type, and wouldn't have if the government hadn't paid my way.

Thanks for asking.

 

[Stifler's Mom]

Office Space

Peter... watch out for your cornhole, man

 

[SoberIrishman]

Clearing things Up!

Ok Guys,

Let me set y'all staright on the differences between the "Euro" system and "over here", from one who has done both.

The US system is VERY practical, and the Brits and other Euros are VERY theoretical. For example, when I did the CAA (UK) stuff it was 13 written examinations just for the commercial pilot certificate (CPL), and that took over a year to study for by correspondence course! The flight training is quite similar to the FAA, however they have an "approved" system whereby you can go to a college or "university" type environment,and in a couple of years at an incredible cost, you can "graduate" with a "frozen" ATPL (ATP) and be entitled to a "two-stripe" FO position in a 737 with EasyJet or Ryanair.

After a period of time you will become a "senior" FO at your airline. I can only assume it is "onwards and upwards" from there! After about 1500 hours total time your frozen ATP is "thawed out", and left seat is available if you can get it!

Personally, having a degree in Science already from a UK university before I started all this, I can say that the British Commercial Pilot Studies and examinations were the most difficult periods of my academic life! Today, I say to myself, "What a load of H****crap", but I can see where the CAA was setting a target for the budding Commercial Pilot. Given all this, I don't think there are many "mentally challenged" JAA pilots flying European Skies!

Now as a CRJ driver here "Stateside", I am so happy to have seen it from both sides. I think that both JAA and FAA systems have their advantages and disadvantages. They are slowly coming together! Long may this integration continue, and with a comon system, job opportunities worldwide should pose no barriers to any legally licensed pilot

"SoberIrishMan"
Capt. CRJ-200