Air Tran gives 3 year old the boot

[Lear70]

http://www.cmaj.ca/cgi/content/full/161/7/805

Interpretation: There appears to be a linear association between the frequency of slapping and spanking during childhood and a lifetime prevalence of anxiety disorder, alcohol abuse or dependence and externalizing problems.

Absolutely. Slapping is unacceptable. A spanking administered properly is a completely different thing. Even your reference above says that BOTH have to happen in order for the linear association given to apply. Hence the word AND (which I used in bold), meaning BOTH things have to happen in order for the following result.

Slapping is abuse. You ARE intelligent enough to know the difference, as are most people debating this, even if you don't want to admit it.

Your feeble attempt to link dictionary.com words together to give negative connotations is also pathetic.

Everyone knows that it is the CONTEXT of how those words are used and their intent that gives them specific meaning, often completely contrary to another meaning or context that exists elsewhere in the dictionary.

Welcome to the English language, where the definition of "IS" is open to interpretation. "I did NOT have sex with that woman".

Can you provide a reference that states that spanking is a form of teaching?

I'm sure I could if I really wanted to spend my day off digging around in articles and books. I have better things to do with my time and, since I know I'm not going to change your mind, why bother?

So it is ok to embarrass your child in front of you, the childs Mom and siblings but you provide them the courtesy of not embarrassing them in front of strangers...

The child is not embarrassed by punishment with no one else present. If you used this method, you would automatically understand that.

Basically, it's the same as if you were flying with a guy who royally screwed something up procedurally he should have known, you correct his error, and go on about your way versus waiting until you got back to the crew room and, in front of his peers, went on to explain how obvious a mistake it would have been and let everyone else see you do it.

One is embarrassing. One is not. But you already knew that.

Again, instead of debating the issue, you're choosing to debate the intent of things I write and twist them around. Didn't work for Al Gore, won't work for you either.

Have you considered a 15month old doesn't have the emotional and physical skills to comprehend what he's doing. That he may have a feeling of love to his mother and he is simply responding by touching. He doesn't have the motor skills to touch softly. He is doing his best and you "pop" him for it.

Incorrect and assumptive.

You, from the comfort of your chair thousands of miles away, are telling ME what MY child is doing. You need to put your ego in check and stop thinking you know all there is to raising MY child.

I'm not talking about a wild stray hand while he's playing or being held. I'm talking about him picking up something he finds that he shouldn't have laying around the house; you try to give him another toy while taking the offensive item away, he gets mad, yells, throws all of it down then tries to hit you in the face while he yells.

That's a tantrum. That's physical aggression. That will NOT be tolerated.

You hold his hands and say "No hit." He gets angrier because NOW you're restricting his movement. He tries to hit even harder and screams even louder. You hold his hands and say "NO! That hurts, don't hit." He doesn't know what you just said except that he senses YOU are still keeping him from doing what he wants to do and is still violent and tries to hit.

You try setting him down, saying No, and walking away, but he follows you around still mad and screaming. You try to pick him up and he goes to hit you again, that's it. He's had his minute or two to calm down, you've tried to redirect his anger and aggression, he still hits.

Spanking time. VERY brief, not in anger. Set him down afterwards so he knows he's being punished. Give him a minute or two to yell it out, then pick him up and love on him and play with him doing something fun and constructive for a while.

The wife won't do that and she has tried all sorts of the kindler, gentler crap that you guys are talking about for the last couple of weeks he has been doing it. She's read those wonderful books and articles you like to quote from. They don't help. He still does it.

One spanking, lots of love, and he hasn't hit either of us in almost a month.

Nothing else worked. That did. Proof positive.

Again Rez, I don't think you really have kids. You might have a step kid that you don't discipline and you can only discipline in your way, but I doubt that you've gone through the stress of a toddler starting to enter his "Terrible Two's".

Anything else you have to offer is pure speculative rubbish, especially when you say that kids don't need control.

Watch Super Nanny and tell me that.

Idiocy.

 

[NuGuy]

http://www.cmaj.ca/cgi/content/full/161/7/805

Interpretation: There appears to be a linear association between the frequency of slapping and spanking during childhood and a lifetime prevalence of anxiety disorder, alcohol abuse or dependence and externalizing problems.

Basic Statistics 101: Correlation does not imply causation. According to some, the decrease in the number of pirates is the reason for global warming.

Nu

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Absolutely. Slapping is unacceptable. A spanking administered properly is a completely different thing. Even your reference above says that BOTH have to happen in order for the linear association given to apply. Hence the word AND (which I used in bold), meaning BOTH things have to happen in order for the following result.

I made the reference to show that slapping, hitting, spanking is the path to other problems... I am not saying it will happen but why put yourself on the path? Especially when others are suggesting other ways that don't including spanking or hitting.....

Slapping is abuse. You ARE intelligent enough to know the difference, as are most people debating this, even if you don't want to admit it.

Spanking is negative behavior. I guess I am not comfortable between knowing the difference from good negative behavior and bad negative behavior.... Is there good negative behavior?

I'm sure I could if I really wanted to spend my day off digging around in articles and books. I have better things to do with my time and, since I know I'm not going to change your mind, why bother?

Translation: I am not open to learning.

But you really don't have better things to do with your time.. cause you and I are posting quite emphatically. The time you've spent posting you could've have referenced several websites to show spanking is ok.

Change my mind? To do what? Hit my child?

No no you don't understand... the respected professional organizations that deal with socialology and medicine say don't hit your children. That spanking is B-A-D. It is you that isn't connected....

You are alone without reference and have only yours and others personal opinion that spanking is ok.

The child is not embarrassed by punishment with no one else present. If you used this method, you would automatically understand that.

Oh, so know you know how others feel..... It takes alot to presume to know how another feels. How do you know the child isn't embarrased.

Again:

Many parents think discipline and punishment are the same thing. However, they are really quite different. Discipline is a whole system of teaching based on a good relationship, praise and instruction for the child on how to control his behavior. Punishment is negative; an unpleasant consequence for doing or not doing something. Punishment should only be a very small part of discipline.

Effective discipline should take place all the time, not just when children misbehave. Children are more likely to change their behavior when they feel encouraged and valued, not shamed and humiliated. When children feel good about themselves and cherish their relationship with their parents, they are more likely to listen and learn.​

Telling your child how to behave is an important part of discipline, but showing her how to behave is even more significant. Children learn a lot about temper and self-control from watching their parents and other adults interact. If they see adults relating in a positive way toward one another, they will learn that this is how others should be treated. This is how children learn to act respectfully.​

http://www.kidshealth.org/parent/positive/family/discipline.html​

It's important to not spank, hit, or slap a child of any age. Babies and toddlers are especially unlikely to be able to make any connection between their behavior and physical punishment. They will only feel the pain of the hit.​

And don't forget that kids learn by watching adults, particularly their parents​

What kind of statement is your last sentence? If I particapted in spanking I would understand its righteousness?

Basically, it's the same as if you were flying with a guy who royally screwed something up procedurally he should have known, you correct his error, and go on about your way versus waiting until you got back to the crew room and, in front of his peers, went on to explain how obvious a mistake it would have been and let everyone else see you do it.

One is embarrassing. One is not. But you already knew that.

Your way is spanking him with a rolled up newspaper- alone. We don't hit people.

Why is it we don't spank adults but it is ok to spank toddlers? Because toddlers don't understand? and if thats the case then why inflict pain becuase they can't understand?

Again, instead of debating the issue, you're choosing to debate the intent of things I write and twist them around. Didn't work for Al Gore, won't work for you either.


Incorrect and assumptive.

Classic debate tactic. Accuse the other what you are guilty of.... How can we debate if you won't provide a reference that spanking is ok? Unitl you do, we are in a cycle...

You, from the comfort of your chair thousands of miles away, are telling ME what MY child is doing. You need to put your ego in check and stop thinking you know all there is to raising MY child.

I'm not talking about a wild stray hand while he's playing or being held. I'm talking about him picking up something he finds that he shouldn't have laying around the house; you try to give him another toy while taking the offensive item away, he gets mad, yells, throws all of it down then tries to hit you in the face while he yells.

That's a tantrum. That's physical aggression. That will NOT be tolerated.

I know nothing of your child excpet what you've told me.

Sure it is a tantrum. Sure it won't be tolerated... but you don't have to hit.. I've provided lots of links for websites that will show you how you can deal behavior and not hit....

You hold his hands and say "No hit." He gets angrier because NOW you're restricting his movement. He tries to hit even harder and screams even louder. You hold his hands and say "NO! That hurts, don't hit." He doesn't know what you just said except that he senses YOU are still keeping him from doing what he wants to do and is still violent and tries to hit.

Hold his hands? Constrain him? If someone held me, I'd try to get free. I'd fight. The harder I was held the harder I would fight. It seems a natural reaction. Recall, humans do not like to be controlled. Imagine a giant person contraining you and talking very stern. That is quite intimidating and frightning...

Is there any possible way that you'd consider that you are setting him up for failure?

You try setting him down, saying No, and walking away, but he follows you around still mad and screaming. You try to pick him up and he goes to hit you again, that's it. He's had his minute or two to calm down, you've tried to redirect his anger and aggression, he still hits.

By walking away you are creating the deisre for the child to [re]gain your approval. It is very difficult for the the child to comprehend the mind games you are playing...

Spanking time. VERY brief, not in anger. Set him down afterwards so he knows he's being punished. Give him a minute or two to yell it out, then pick him up and love on him and play with him doing something fun and constructive for a while.

Pushished for what? Not wanting to be controlled? Realizing that he has made Dad angry and trying to make up for it as you walk away. All while crying you turn around a spank him?

How can the child understand this total contridiciting scenario?

The wife won't do that and she has tried all sorts of the kindler, gentler crap that you guys are talking about for the last couple of weeks he has been doing it. She's read those wonderful books and articles you like to quote from. They don't help. He still does it.

He still does it cause he is 15 months old! He will continue to do it.... Stay the course..lead by example and provide unconditional love as does your child. Finally, trust yourself and your child that you will both grow togther as a family.

One spanking, lots of love, and he hasn't hit either of us in almost a month.

Nothing else worked. That did. Proof positive.

lots of love and fear. You are getting the results you want out of fear.

Again Rez, I don't think you really have kids. You might have a step kid that you don't discipline and you can only discipline in your way, but I doubt that you've gone through the stress of a toddler starting to enter his "Terrible Two's".

Anything else you have to offer is pure speculative rubbish, especially when you say that kids don't need control.

Watch Super Nanny and tell me that.

Idiocy.

Ok.. because I won't subscribe to your spanking methods I must not have kids. That is your justification and rationale? Logic?

The links that I have provided are legit especially in comparison to your opinion. cause that is all you got....

Super Nanny? That is the only reference you've provided and I've got to tell you... a "reality" entertainment show isn't valid.

Links
References
Something to show us that spanking is ok....

 

[BVT94]

Here are some really great articles about using positive discipline and understanding why children do what they do, in case anyone is interested.

http://www.awareparenting.com/articles.htm

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Here are some really great articles about using positive discipline and understanding why children do what they do, in case anyone is interested.

http://www.awareparenting.com/articles.htm

I am interested.....

Here is what I read...

A child who is spanked, hit, beaten, or threatened with violence will have a tendency to become violent himself.

and

To prevent violence, we must, first, stop perpetrating violence on children. This means no spanking or hitting.

and

It is important to know that children need the most love and attention when they act the least deserving of it.

and

The most helpful response is simply to allow the crying or tantrum to occur, even though this may require a tremendous amount of patience. If the crying is disruptive, the child can be taken to another room, provided an adult stays with him to offer loving support. No person of any age should be forced to cry alone. It is especially important that children never feel they are being punished for crying.

and

To conclude, tears and tantrums are built-in healing mechanisms that help children overcome the effects of stress and trauma. Acceptance of strong emotions is an essential ingredient in unconditional love and healthy attachment. Children need an environment that permits them to cry without being distracted, ridiculed, or punished. This will allow them to maintain emotional health by regularly freeing themselves from the effects of frustrating, frightening, or confusing experiences. When parents strive to accept and listen to their children's strong emotions, the children will know that they can always come to their parents with their problems, and that they will be loved no matter how sad, frightened, or angry they feel. Children brought up with this approach grow up to be cooperative, compassionate, and nonviolent. Furthermore, they have no need to numb themselves with alcohol or drugs. This approach to parenting is therefore an essential factor in reducing the problems of violence and drug abuse in our society.

 

[SkiFishFly]

I really don't understand how you all can justify hurting kids and animals. It's all abuse, when you are inflicting pain on another, especially creatures smaller who can't defend themselves. My dog is well-behaved as well, and he's never been hit. It's called Positive Dog Training. I'm just going to assume that you didn't know there is another way that doesn't involve pain...but now that you know, it's your responsibility to yourself to choose to go on hurting others or to re-evaluate your methods and use your mind instead of your hands.

Nice. I like how you automatically assume that your position is in fact the most informed and correct position. I am just a brute, misinformed idiot who has no clue how to "properly" train my dog or child.
Get off your dang high horse and stop trying to tell me what to do. We disagree on certain methods. There is no absolute proof that either of us is correct.

I know from personal experience and observation that I have seen parents who try to use your methods and end up with spoiled monsters who walk all over the parents and others around them. They have no clue what constitutes unacceptable behavior because there have never been any real consequences for bad behavior.

 

[SkiFishFly]

You most absolutely CAN control your child and have an OBLIGATION, both moral and legal, to control your child from letting their behavior damage another person or property, including their personal space and right to exist without YOUR child infringing on it.

You CAN (and should) control them until they LEARN TO CONTROL THEMSELVES.

That's what a parent does!

Amen to that! Too many parents have no control over their children and are too self absorbed to care...

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Nice. I like how you automatically assume that your position is in fact the most informed and correct position. I am just a brute, misinformed idiot who has no clue how to "properly" train my dog or child.
Get off your dang high horse and stop trying to tell me what to do. We disagree on certain methods. There is no absolute proof that either of us is correct.

I know from personal experience and observation that I have seen parents who try to use your methods and end up with spoiled monsters who walk all over the parents and others around them. They have no clue what constitutes unacceptable behavior because there have never been any real consequences for bad behavior.

No one is advocating not spanking your kids and letting them run wild. The issue is spanking is harmful. I agree with you. The message: unacceptable behavior should not be tolerated... now the delivery of the message... spanking is not an acceptable method to not tolerate bad behavior.

There have been plenty of websites referenced. Spanking is harmful. It is controversial because it yields instant results! And as a society we love our instantaneous results... But long term studies by educated people in the fields of study have shown it has long term harmful effects. These are not my opinions or BVT94's.

No references have been cited yet that says spanking is acceptable or benificial. Personal opinion and observations by laymen like me and you are simply that..opinion.

 

[BVT94]

Nice. I like how you automatically assume that your position is in fact the most informed and correct position. I am just a brute, misinformed idiot who has no clue how to "properly" train my dog or child.
Get off your dang high horse and stop trying to tell me what to do. We disagree on certain methods. There is no absolute proof that either of us is correct.

Yes, I was giving you the benefit doubt and assuming that you had no idea how effective clicker training is with animals. It was either that or assume that you did know, but preferred to hit animals. BTW, physical punishment with animals also leads to aggression. I guess they are not all that different from us.


I know from personal experience and observation that I have seen parents who try to use your methods and end up with spoiled monsters who walk all over the parents and others around them. They have no clue what constitutes unacceptable behavior because there have never been any real consequences for bad behavior.

I'm sure you have witnessed some kids running amok. I think you have me confused with those parents that don't put in the time and effort that it requires to raise a child. Yes, I am lucky that we make enough money for me to stay home with my child. OTOH, I wouldn't have otherwise had a child, since I wouldn't expect someone else to raise my child. I have no problem telling my child no when need be, and I also am not threatened by their emotions after my telling them no. I think you are getting me confused with the parents that feel guilty about not spending enough time with their kids or have baggage from their childhood and are afraid to tell their child "no". Our house is nothing like Super Nanny. My husband and I are secure enough with ourselves that we don't feel threatened by our child's actions. IOW, the attitude of "how dare you not do what I say" doesn't apply. We just redirect, provide lots of structure (sleep, food, kid-proofed house), and talk with (not to) our kid.

 

[NEDude]

I have four kids, and they know how to behave in public. Never had a problem with them. Perhaps my wife and I just got lucky. But what I have often found works when one of them does begin to act out is to tell them, firmly, that they are out of line, and then distract them with something else (hey look at that!).

Sure there are times when that does not work. That is when you take them out of the room/off the airplane etc. You do that not only out of courtesy to others, but it also shows the kid that their misbehavior has consequenses.

 

[Lear70]

Ski and others, you might as well give up. You're talking to brick walls who have already made up their minds that we are terrible brutes raising kids who will grow up to be the Hannibal Lecters of the new age.

Yes, I could find textbook references that physical discipline is sometimes required.

Yes, I DO have better things to do, such as completely re-working my entire month next month in FLICA, fixing my newest car project (just finished replacing the water pump and timing belt, runs great!), and now getting ready to go over and fix my dad's gas heater pilot light since it's in the 20's and dropping into the single digit temperatures tonight, plus I still have to make the wife dinner - I cook when I'm home since she takes care of the kids while I'm gone.

Yep, I'm a terrible, terrible, abusive person who understands nothing of proper parenting. *snicker*

I give up. You're right. I'm wrong. Whatever.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Ski and others, you might as well give up. You're talking to brick walls who have already made up their minds that we are terrible brutes raising kids who will grow up to be the Hannibal Lecters of the new age.

Talk to the references. The studies by certified people who have yielded to science and the results whatever they might be... the reuslts are... spanking is harmful.

Yes, I could find textbook references that physical discipline is sometimes required.

No you can't.

Yes, I DO have better things to do, such as completely re-working my entire month next month in FLICA, fixing my newest car project (just finished replacing the water pump and timing belt, runs great!), and now getting ready to go over and fix my dad's gas heater pilot light since it's in the 20's and dropping into the single digit temperatures tonight, plus I still have to make the wife dinner - I cook when I'm home since she takes care of the kids while I'm gone.

Yet here you are....

Yep, I'm a terrible, terrible, abusive person who understands nothing of proper parenting. *snicker*

I give up. You're right. I'm wrong. Whatever.

So you'd rather be right and spank/hit your child then learn a better way?

 

[SkiFishFly]

From BVT94: "Yes, I was giving you the benefit doubt and assuming that you had no idea how effective clicker training is with animals. It was either that or assume that you did know, but preferred to hit animals. BTW, physical punishment with animals also leads to aggression. I guess they are not all that different from us."

You probably have no clue how self righteous and condescending you come across in this and most of the rest of your posts on this subject.

Hey your right. I'm just an uneducated hick who never heard of the "clicker" method. Heii, I can barely read. Never would have thought to pick up a book or two about training dogs (or kids). Do you suppose they have some at the local 7-11 that I could pick up next time I make a beer run?
(In my great big gas-guzzlin pick-em-up of course)

 

[Whataburger]

Somehow I see this turning into a PFT or pay for jumpseating discussion.

 

[Sensei]

I spoke to the Capt who flew that trip. The child had '666' on it's forehead, slapped it's mother, slapped a lollypop out of the hand of the passenger in front of her, then climbed under the seat and wouldn't come out. It was pretty clear that this was the first time these parents tried to discipline their child.
I have two words for the parents: "Paint Stick". They are free at Home Depot. I recommend the 5 gal bucket paint sticks. I've only had two break. A "Come to Jesus" meeting would've done this child some good.