ASA_Aviator
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Yes, when the person I'm arguing against uses logic and makes sound points. That's pretty rare in the flighinfo world of logical fallacy and appeal to ignorance.
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Yes, when the person I'm arguing against uses logic and makes sound points. That's pretty rare in the flighinfo world of logical fallacy and appeal to ignorance.
Max Q
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GUYS!!!!!!!! Guys!!!! Guyssssssssssss.......
Behold: http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v62/mo439470/Host/kitty.jpg
Behold: http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v62/mo439470/Host/kitty.jpg
This thread has been full of logical arguments. Your replies are full of irrational justifications.
The fact is this contract is far below standard. You just justify it with "that's what the market will take."
Can you name any market that is truly a "free market"?
Those of us who are upset about this would like to see the ASA guys try to get more. From my understanding, this has been their first offer. And while they guys there think they are getting a decent package (because they will be able to save money), they are in reality getting a crappy deal.
It's not a dig on them. They have no experience in the contract world and have nothing to compare it to. They also don't have any idea what will be waiting for them as an expat. I am willing to be most of these guys have never even been to Vietnam, or SE Asia before.
This is why those of us on this board who do have experience in the contract world are trying to tell them that they are ACCEPTING A PACKAGE THAT IS BELOW THE GOING MARKET RATE. They really don't know what their skills are worth on the contract market and if no one accepts this job, I am willing to bet the terms would go higher.
Just because you don't agree with something doesn't make it illogical. But then again, today everyone is an expert on everything......
The fact is this contract is far below standard. You just justify it with "that's what the market will take."
Can you name any market that is truly a "free market"?
Those of us who are upset about this would like to see the ASA guys try to get more. From my understanding, this has been their first offer. And while they guys there think they are getting a decent package (because they will be able to save money), they are in reality getting a crappy deal.
It's not a dig on them. They have no experience in the contract world and have nothing to compare it to. They also don't have any idea what will be waiting for them as an expat. I am willing to be most of these guys have never even been to Vietnam, or SE Asia before.
This is why those of us on this board who do have experience in the contract world are trying to tell them that they are ACCEPTING A PACKAGE THAT IS BELOW THE GOING MARKET RATE. They really don't know what their skills are worth on the contract market and if no one accepts this job, I am willing to bet the terms would go higher.
Just because you don't agree with something doesn't make it illogical. But then again, today everyone is an expert on everything......
Max Q
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CX880
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Skype is actually not a bad idea. You can interview in your underwear. Plus better to hear the BS over the internet rather than traveling 5000 miles to be in person.
ASA_Aviator
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I don't care if it is above or below average. My only point is that the company can float whatever agreement they want, and if it is too low, no one will take it. Since people are clearly interested, and are willing to take it, the market (in this case, ASA pilots), can bear the offer.
I agree it is less than other offers, which is the main reason I didn't apply. Not because I didn't want to "lower the bar," but because it didn't make financial/career sense for me to go.
You just can't fault guys for looking at their finances, looking at their situation, and making a decision that is right for them. A lot of you people really really like to tell other people what they should and shouldn't do, and that is what I have a problem with. Taking a job, quitting a job, moving across the world, etc., those are all personal decisions for the individual, and they darn sure don't have to answer to anyone on this board.
Dumb Pilot
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Not only is it completely irrelevant but it is a clear indication that you have no idea what you are talking about, it is precisely because of the market conditions that we are telling you that this contract T&C's are way substandard, the S.E. ASIA MARKET. You can't compare the market here in the U.S. nor use it as any sort of reference because the business model that ASA is after with this venture is nothing like the business model that they have in the U.S. This regional carriers in S.E. Asia operate in a high yields market and they are profitable as stand alone organizations and not as part of a "brand" like here in the U.S. where they are just fee for departure and not really responsible for ticket sales and reservations, In the U.S. the brand doesn't really make money from the regionals as stand alone business ventures but rather as part of the feeding network into their hub and spoke system. That is NOT the way that this business venture in Vietnam will work for ASA, they will operate in a market that is not saturated and where the ticket prices will bring a revenue stream that supports salaries 40% higher than what you guys were so willing to say yes to. I want you guys to understand that ASA needs you for this venture a lot more than you need them, YOU have the upper hand here and not the other way around. Another aspect is that ASA is not limited with this venture by any sort of scope and that the operation of larger A/C's in the pacific rim and within S.E. Asia is within their grasp. This is where all of us contract pilots are very much against this T&C's because if you are willing to undercut by 40% at the regional level, would you be willing to do it at the wide body level? where does this lead to? this is a troubling trend of the degradation of salary conditions that we have experienced in the U.S. to spread like a cancer across the last frontier of higher salaries for pilots.
Nobody is blaming them for that, are you kidding? I think that after going on three decades in this crappy business I know what is like to be without a job so please could you not try to lecture people who have been doing this a LOT longer than you about the difficult decision that in this business have to be made. It comes down to selling your services for the right price, the price that goes with the market and what the company will be VERY willing to pay. Why sell it for $5 when the company will pay $8? and still make money
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Me me me. This pretty much sums up what is wrong with the world. Their decisions will affect other people and greatly affect them if they want to fly in the contract world in the future. They should at least take that into consideration. The short term gain could hamper their long term earning potential.
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