Air Force

[Velocity]

Hey guys

A while ago, sometime last summer I decided that I wanted to become a Naval Aviator. Though I still have a long way to go I know alot about the process envolved with this.

OCS
API
Primary
Int
Adv

But...I was thinking...Since I really want to fly jets really bad, maybe I should join the AF.

I know all the risks in the Navy like if you want jets but you dont get them you go to helo's or E2/C2 ect ect

But I was wondering if someone could tell me the process involved in becoming an AF aviator. And could you tell me what are the options once you make it to the Jet part of training.

(Also if anyone knows, Is it true that the AF has never lost one F-15?)

 

[Velocity]

By the way, when i say options when I get to jets, I mean what types of jets are there to fly.

I can only think of F-16 and B-2, and maybe F-22 by the time I get in.

Im not outta high school yet but the reason im so anxious is because soon I need to pick what type of scholarship I want, AF ROTC or NROTC...so yea.

Thanks in advance.

 

[Rush Limbaugh]

"Also if anyone knows, Is it true that the AF has never lost one F-15?"

First off, the Air Force has lost some F-15's. What you are thinking of is that an F-15C has never lost an air to air fight. Come to think of it, I don't think a single C-model has been lost in combat period.

As far as options, there are many more jet options than you listed. Every airplane in the inventory except the C-130, T-6, C-27 (do we still fly those?) and the T-3 (which we still own but don't fly) are all jets. Just on the fighter side for a young man such as yourself there are F-15C and E, F-16, A-10, F-22, F-35 and (cough..cough) the F-117.

None of those airplanes are going away anytime soon and the F-22 and F-35 should be full up by the time you get in.

As far as Air Force vs. Navy, I am not going to pitch in to that fight other than to say that no matter what service you fly for, you will be the best in the world at what you do.

 

[Eagleflip]

Velocity--

I can answer a few of your questions, however someone will have to add the exact details of the most recent pilot training details.

First, remember that if you want to become an aviator, be it Navy, AF, Marine, Army--they all require one thing you haven't mentioned. A desire to serve and a willingness to sacrifice. That's not a simple decision to make, either. After all, I understand that you are still in high school and are coming to terms with life in general.

Nevertheless, if you are contemplating entering the service in any capacity, remember that you will agree to protect your country from all enemies, foreign and domestic. That could mean that you die in the process. In short, you aren't joining the service to fly-you will be taught to fly as part of your service.

OK, that said (and remembering that I too got that speech at the tender age of 18 and promptly forgot it, only to remember it once I was on alert in Korea), here's the scoop on how to become an Air Force pilot.

Go to college. Graduate. This is not negotiable except in the most unique of circumstances. Get a degree in something that is useful; who knows, you may not make it through pilot training. It has happened to more folks that you realize.

You can enter the AF via ROTC (two or four years of quasi-hassle), OTS (officer training school, 90 days of extreme hassle), or by graduating from any service academy, normally the USAF Academy (4 years of continuous, high-test, oh-my-buddah hassle with a world-class education to boot). If you can get a two or four year scholarship, more power to you. That is the route I took. See your local AFJunior ROTC unit for details, or contact the folks at ROTC HQ at Maxwelll AFB, Alabama.

After graduation, you'll be comissioned as a 2nd Lt. From there, you'll go through a intro course in flight training (this used to be done at local flight schools, but I think this has changed--help, anyone?). You'll get close to obtaining your private ticket from that training.

Basic pilot training in the AF is done at Undergraduate Pilot Training, done at several places in the US such as Laughlin AFB, TX; Sheppard AFB, TX; Vance AFB, OK; and Columbus AFB, GA. Dunno if there are any new places, but those listed will give you a run for your money for the one year you spend there. I can honestly say that I've never given 100% to anything like I did UPT. Well, except F-15 training, but that's another story.

During UPT, you'll fly the T-37 Tweet (a historic machine designed to turn jet fuel into noise) or the new T-6, the Tweet's replacement. After that phase, you may selected to go to heavies (tankers, transports) and move on to flying the (I think) T-45? Jayhawk, a militarized version of the Beechjet. Or, if you show promise in certain areas, you may instead move on to fly fighters, which means you move on to fly the T-38 Talon. (This is one very cool and high performance airplane. You will
never forget your first T-38 ride.

After graduating from UPT, you move on to your specific aircraft training base. These courses last anywhere from four to 9 months. In case of fighters, you will make a short detour through the Introduction to Fighter Fundamentals course (I think they still call it that) at Moody AFB GA, where you learn how to swagger, shoot your watch with your other hand, and fly like you mean it. Actually, that last one is true--I used to teach this course.

Then it is off to your operational unit, where you have to get checked out yet again. All told, you'll spend at least two years in the training pipeline before the AF lets you begin doing your job--with supervision.

Don't forget--you're an officer first, pilot second. Harsh, but true.

Now for your other question about the F-15. An F-15 has never been lost in battle---this includes all service with the US, Saudi, Japanese and Israeli Air Forces.

However, we've lost a bunch of them--and many good pilots and friends--during peacetime training accidents.

Best of luck, young man. Study hard!

 

[AlbieF15]

Very well said Flipper!

Velocity--A cadre of guys...yours truely included...waits for you at Tyndall if the F-15C is your dream. Its a challenge every day...but it never gets dull.

I've been on countless long deployments, flown stupid CAPs in combat zones, thought I was engaged by an Iraqi SA-3 in '96 (...long story....but I will say some Brit Tornadoes freaked a bit that day...), and lost a few friends. Yet...for some stupid reason...I still find excuses to drop FedEx trips to go fly F-15 missions instead. Once you get a taste of fighter aviation it is a VERY hard addicition to break. If you think its for you--you will never forget the good times or the friends you make along the way. Follow your heart and give it a try...

BTW--an illuminated sign in the Crypt...the Bonehead bar...is a scoreboard. It says:

Eagles Adversaries
104 0

Our students always think they are there to learn to increase the number in the left column--but if fact we are hard on them so they will never be in the right column!

Good luck to you!

 

[HoursHore]

AFROTC vs NROTC

We'll avoid the AF vs navy debate and look at the ROTC side. Both academys are pretty much the same (blasphemy I know), but when I was in your shoes, the Rotc sholaships were very different. I think it was a lot harder to get a full AF scholarship, and fewer schools had the program. Plus it was darn near impossible to get a pilot slot out of AFROTC. It was easier in 1989 to get a NROTC scholarship, plus the navy didn't tell you what you had to major in. Navy Rotc offered more options if you decided you didn't want to fly, or it was decided for you. But if you want to fly jets, believe me, the AF has way more of them, from fighters to heavies, they do have the best flying, just a lot of rules to live by.

 

[Velocity]

Don't forget--you're an officer first, pilot second. Harsh, but true.

Yes, I am well aware of this. I think of it as a plus. Not only am I an aviator but I am an officer. Something not many people can say. I respect what you guys do and thank you for the commitment you have made.

But anyways, I like the F-117 but I hear you have to make a transition from another type of jet...like if you where a F-16,15 pilot then they will send you over.

But on my top list of jets, B-2 and F-22,35's would have to be up there. I would love to get my hands on one of those Marine JSF's...looks fun.

I dunno yet, but I think I need to choose soon but I dont know what to base my decision on.
My friend was saying I should do Navy since I will be able to land on a boat. But then again I might be flying a E2 on it, not a F-18.

Well thanks alot for the feedback, I appreciate it.

(Hope your having fun up in OCS Pat; get dirty )

 

[Yahtzee]

Correction to Patmack's AF statement

When you join the AF... you join the AF hoping that you get a pilot slot. When you join the Navy you join KNOWING that you've got a pilot slot. At least thats the way it was, maybe it's changed..... Good luck either way you go!
Pat

Patmack meant well, but didn't get it quite right. Isn't he supposed to be doing pushups right now instead of typing on a computer? Silly me...Navy Basic Training...now I'm sure that's what he meant to say had changed. Do they have espresso machines in the dorms by the computers?

Velocity,

If you want to go to pilot training in the USAF, you will know whether you have a slot before you have any commitment. Patmack may be using the term "join" a little too loosely. I'm not sure what era he referred to when he stated "At least that’s the way it was, maybe it's changed", but even back to the first days of Reagan's presidency in 1984, the USAF has indicated the type of slot you have before you "join".

My definition of "join" implies you will be placed on Active Duty as either an Enlisted Troop or an Officer. "Enrolling" in ROTC, the USAFA, or OTS is not "joining" the Air Force...you are either a ROTC or USAFA "cadet", or an OTS "trainee", but you are clearly not "in" the USAF. You can quit any of the three commissioning source programs by a certain clearly stated time period without any commitment to Uncle Sam. Plenty of people quit before they take any commitment. Maybe they don't like the lack of internet equipped computers in basic.

First, via the OTS method. Spoke to an OTS commissioned 2Lt working in my squadron at Columbus AFB yesterday who is waiting to start T-37s. Current USAF policy: You have to apply for a pilot slot then apply to OTS. If selected for UPT, you will have the pilot slot before you start OTS. If you start OTS without the pilot slot these days, you'll finish without one. Simple, don't go to OTS without a pilot slot in hand.

Second, via the ROTC method. You either do the two year program or the four year program. Your freshman and sophomore years you are in the GMC (General Military Core) program. You can walk away at anytime without any commitment to Uncle Sam. I'm pretty sure you can walk away without having to repay a scholarship, but you would need to ask the ROTC detachment. Once you start your Junior year, you'll be presented with paperwork stating what type of slot you have earned. If your "contract" states "Pilot" and you sign, you join the PMC (Professional Military Core). Once you get commissioned, you will go to pilot training. (Caveat that statement against all the Recated Pilots from 1990 to 1992 after the Berlin Wall fell...Long story...not for this post). If you fail to be commissioned, the PAS (Colonel or Lt Col in charge of the detachment) can invoke the option to enlist you as an E-3 in the USAF. Again, simple, don't sign the paperwork without a Pilot slot.

Finally, via the USAFA (or other service academies via a cross commission to the USAF). Why on earth would you go to an Academy when you could go to schools such as Georgia, Arizona State, Tennessee, Duke, North Carolina, or Florida State? Either way, today if you are medically qualified at the USAFA you will get a pilot slot, and again you can walk away before your junior year without any commitment. One more time, don't start your junior year without a pilot slot.

HoursHore is right about the AF having more jets, and even more rules about what we can't do with them. Simply put, in the Navy if it's not written you can't do it, they probably will.

In the AF, if it's not written that you can do it, most of the leaders direct that you won't do it. Completely different mindsets. Both have merits...the AF is probably too strict and the Navy probably too loose. Just my .02.

Whether you "join" the AF or the Navy, you will have a experience you will never forget. And EagleFlip is right, if you fly T-38s, you will never forget your first flight. Too bad all AF pilots don't get to fly it like we did in the old days.


Best wishes!

Yahtz

P..S. The USAF Beechjet is a T-1. The T-45 is a Navy Goshawk.

 

[Toro]

(Also if anyone knows, Is it true that the AF has never lost one F-15?)

Don't know about the C models, but I know of four E models that have been lost - two in combat.

One was on a training mission in the Gulf War when the pilot was trying to do a high-to-low conversion on a Jaguar and misjudged his altitude which resulted in him not being able to pull out of his dive before he hit the ground.

Two E's were hit by SAMs in the Gulf War - the pilot and WSO of a jet hit during an attack on Basrah both died, and the aircrew of a subsequent shoot-down were captured and imprisoned by the Iraqis (later released).

In addition, I know of one E-model that was lost when the crew got spacially disoriented during a night training mission at Seymour Johnson. I read the story about five years ago, but the long and short of it was that it was dark and something went wrong with the instruments. By the time they figured out something was wrong, they were doing 600+ knots in an unusual attitude descending through their ejection mins. When they ejected the WSO was killed and the pilot managed to survive an extraordinary amount of injuries, and gathered himself into his life raft for the rescue guys to get him.

 

[jointops]

Velocity,

Well, everyone has made valuable input to your original question.
Expounding on what Eagleflip wrote: Going to pilot training with the mindset that you've got to fly fighters is noble. Not many students wind up with that as an option. Several guys in my class were really motivated, extremely competitive with one another and wanted to fly fighters. Out of 32 students, 8 never finished. Of the remaining 24 students, 3 fighters were awarded.
Always strive for your dream, but recognize you may have to set your sights on a different type of military flying.
As a female, fighters weren't available when I graduated. I spent 8 years flying Learjets for the military and loved it.

Happy landings

 

[BMD]

patmack

Yahtzee, a lack of knowledge on some subject has never stopped patmack from throwing in his two cents.

 

[Yahtzee]

No harm...no foul

Yahtzee, a lack of knowledge on some subject has never stopped patmack from throwing in his two cents.

Patmack's ok...he's trying to help so that's good. Seems he has made a lot of progress since he first starting posting on this board. A guess that Navy training is doing wonders.

On a side note: From 1993 to maybe 1997 the USAFA did not tell folks if they had a pilot slot to the end of their junior year. This was the continuing result of the pilot cutbacks after the Wall came down in 1989. By the time these cadets learned words whether they had a pilot slot or not, they would have incurred some service commitment had they choose to quit the USAF.

My apology for forgetting this. Patmack maybe have been referring to this isolated time period at the USAFA. If so, I'll let him slide.

Again I ask the question "Why the heck would you choose to go to the USAFA when you could go to ROTC?"

Patmack...no harm no foul....Just trying to set the record straight .

Yahtz

 

[mugsy]

Veloity,


I went to college and applied to OTS back in 93'. I got in and yes I had the pilot slot before I went. The trick you don't want to fall into is some recruiter asking if you would like to be a nav first if you can't get a pilot slot. They asked me this after I got turned down the first time. Stick to your guns and Don't fall for this pitch. If you want to be a pilot, than that is what you want to do, nothing else will you settle for. OTS is pain, but you learn a lot of good stuff. Play the game and keep a good attitude. There job is to make you a good officer first. That is your first goal. No butter bar, no wings. One step at a time. You will be worked hard and asked a lot of. Don't ever get a chip on your shoulder because you are pilot selectee. That goes for even when you get your wings. The AF is a team and without everyone else we are just a photo shoot in the airplane. I have met plenty of aviators who think they are god's gift to the air force. Just some advice for when you get your wings. I am now flying the B-2 coming from b-1s. No it is not yanking and banking like the fighters, but is a great bomber. Good family life if you are thinking about that. If you want know anything about it just ask. God speed and keep the faith brother. We need guys who care about our country and want to keep our way of life.

mugsy

 

[korn]

ANG is Another Option

The Guard is another option that can get you into a jet. There is no equivalent opportunity in the Navy system, though (I don't think the Navy Reserve sends people to primary). In many states, there are ways to get financial help for college with the Guard, as well.

I've heard so many people say that they never knew about the Guard until they had already comitted to active duty. It's not for everyone, but it can be a great way to serve.

Korn

 

[Yahtzee]

ROTC Pilot Slots

Ya I forgot to mention I was reffering to the ROTC programs. At my school, all the ROTC (Air Force) students signed up and went through the program, then after they had gone through I think 2 years they basically signed on the dotted line to serve their commision and then wait for what they got. Not sure if thats exactly how it worked, but I do know that they did NOT know what they would be doing. I had several flight students that were going through the ROTC program that were heart set on pilot positions and didn't get them.

Patmack,

The USAF understands many, if not most, young men and women are interested in flying....hence the name "Air Force". With this understanding in mind, the AF does a good job of letting folks know if they will be going to UPT as soon as possible.

The reason "they did NOT know what they would be doing" was because "they" didn't have pilot slots. Your friend who went to the back of a Strike Eagle, knew she had a Nav slot and not a pilot slot...unless she went to UPT, was eliminated, then found her way to Nav school then to the back of an F-15E.

I'll repost my previous comments in reference to ROTC.

Originally posted by Yahtzee

Once you start your Junior year, you'll be presented with paperwork stating what type of slot you have earned. If your "contract" states "Pilot" and you sign, you join the PMC (Professional Military Core). Once you get commissioned, you will go to pilot training.

Slots come down with about five different options:

Pilot, Nav, Technical, Non-Technical, Missile (maybe Space & Missile today) and maybe one more. Unless you have a pilot or nav slot, you will not know what you are doing until sometime your senior year. Pilots and navs will know their junior year.

A current junior in ROTC would be able to provide the most current info, but you make it sound like a cadet wouldn't know if they would be going to UPT up to the day before they got commissioned. That's simply inaccurate.

Velocity,

I'll ask a couple of ROTC commissioned 2Lts tomorrow specificallly when they signed their contracts and when they were officially informed of their pilot slots.

If you would like, I'll get you a phone number to several ROTC detachments so you can call and ask any questions you might have.

Send me a PM if you want the phone numbers.

Best Wishes,

Yahtz

 

[Velocity]

What exactly is the guard and where can I find more information on it?