Age 65... what does it mean to you?

[General Lee]

Your ranting and raving have really crossed the line...Is your arrogance and ignorance so completely out of control that you have to put down the fantastic job Captain Al did saving all those lives?? He was very modest about it, but it was his many years of experience and knowledge from those many years that allowed him to accomplish the near impossible!

I didn't put good ole Al down, I said he also needed a lot of help, and he got it from a few other pilots too. I am sure he was instrumental, but he had help from more than one pilot, and they were all giving advice.

The crux of this argument is whether or not pilots should retire at 60. I say YES, primarily because at 60 MOST of them should retire for safety reasons. We all know that is true. IF you do not, you haven't flown with one. Not every age 60 pilot is ready for the golf course, but that goes the same for older firemen. Do you want an age 60 fireman carrying you down a burning stairwell? And for those who say it isn't the same, try looking at a guy that has crossed 30,000 time zones over the last 35 years. He is just as tired. Sad but true.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Chest Rockwell]

Lee,

You have absolutely no facts to support flying past age 60 presents any risk.

Ask anyone at any carrier this question: How many pilots have been terminated for lack of flying proficiency/ability between age 55 and 60? Ask the same question for the under 40 age group.

 

[comrcap]

HR 65 and S65 will pass quietly with the blessing of the FAA, PBGC and a wink and nod from ALPA.

 

[DoinTime]

"Al Haynes was forced to retire that year, not because he had been in a crash, but because the FAA told him he was too old."

Al Haynes was born in 1932. He was 57 when flight 232 was lost.

 

[General Lee]

Lee,

You have absolutely no facts to support flying past age 60 presents any risk.

Ask anyone at any carrier this question: How many pilots have been terminated for lack of flying proficiency/ability between age 55 and 60? Ask the same question for the under 40 age group.

Did the Supreme Court when they ruled against your Southwest pilots? They determined on their own that there would be a safety risk, and that if they extended the pilots age limit they would have to do the same for other professions, like cops and firemen.

As far as lack of proficiency firings, you know as well as I do that many of the senior guys intimidate some of the checkairmen, or appoint them. Do you see any junior guys as fleet managers? No way. It is all political, and when it comes down to it we all agree that 60 is a great time for most senior guys to leave and play golf until they die, which could be within 5 years of retirement. Imagine if that would happen on their retirment flight? Yikes.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[General Lee]

HR 65 and S65 will pass quietly with the blessing of the FAA, PBGC and a wink and nod from ALPA.

The Airlines are against it (they would rather have younger and cheaper pilots come up through the ranks---having a 2 year 767 FO is cheaper than an 8 year 767 FO, etc), and ALPA is also against it because the overwhelming amount of pilots at ALPA are younger and want to upgrade. If ALPA wanted to keep more senior guys around to increase dues, then the airlines would go for more RJs and reduce mainline ranks even more. ALPA won't agree to that, and will testify to Congress. I don't think the APA wants it either.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Chest Rockwell]

Did the Supreme Court when they ruled against your Southwest pilots? They determined on their own that there would be a safety risk, and that if they extended the pilots age limit they would have to do the same for other professions, like cops and firemen.

As far as lack of proficiency firings, you know as well as I do that many of the senior guys intimidate some of the checkairmen, or appoint them. Do you see any junior guys as fleet managers? No way. It is all political, and when it comes down to it we all agree that 60 is a great time for most senior guys to leave and play golf until they die, which could be within 5 years of retirement. Imagine if that would happen on their retirment flight? Yikes.


Bye Bye--General Lee

You are mistaken regarding the Supreme Court. They voted to not hear the case and let a lower court ruling stand. If not so, please post there opinions.

Stating that there should be a blanket rule because of a few cases of demonstated incompetence is nonsense. If we discover that captains under the age of 50 make more mistakes than those over 50, should we limit upgrades to age 50?

I have seen several junior guys in management or offered management positions, but I have only been with three carriers (2-135, 1-121). If BS is going on, the pilots should say so (I know that is easier said than done). I have witnessed a 25 year old check airman give an unsat to a 50 year old senior guy and a 35 year old do the same with a 55+ year old. In both cases it was the best thing that they could have done for these pilots. It is the responsibility of each of us to hold ourselves and those that we fly with to an acceptable level of proficiency.

I question your judgement in making statements that include with "we all agree" or "we all know" when you must know otherwise.

 

[General Lee]

You are mistaken regarding the Supreme Court. They voted to not hear the case and let a lower court ruling stand. If not so, please post there opinions.

Stating that there should be a blanket rule because of a few cases of demonstated incompetence is nonsense. If we discover that captains under the age of 50 make more mistakes than those over 50, should we limit upgrades to age 50?

I have seen several junior guys in management or offered management positions, but I have only been with three carriers (2-135, 1-121). If BS is going on, the pilots should say so (I know that is easier said than done). I have witnessed a 25 year old check airman give an unsat to a 50 year old senior guy and a 35 year old do the same with a 55+ year old. In both cases it was the best thing that they could have done for these pilots. It is the responsibility of each of us to hold ourselves and those that we fly with to an acceptable level of proficiency.

I question your judgement in making statements that include with "we all agree" or "we all know" when you must know otherwise.

Thanks Chest, atleast you agree that the Supreme Court didn't think it was that important, and they also stated in their reasoning that they would have to allow other jobs the same retirement bumps, like Cops and Firemen. That would really endanger us all. And, you DO KNOW IT. Don't fool yourself. You thought the same way when you were junior. If you are junior and you feel this way, you are nuts. We have all seen older captains that should not be there, and most need to retire by 60. Especially at Southwest, a senior guy might have done 1000 legs a year (24 legs per 4 day trip), and over years that just kills you. INTL pilots also have problems after flying multiple timezones once a week for years. Not good.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Chest Rockwell]

Thanks Chest, atleast you agree that the Supreme Court didn't think it was that important, and they also stated in their reasoning that they would have to allow other jobs the same retirement bumps, like Cops and Firemen. That would really endanger us all. And, you DO KNOW IT. Don't fool yourself. You thought the same way when you were junior. If you are junior and you feel this way, you are nuts. We have all seen older captains that should not be there, and most need to retire by 60. Especially at Southwest, a senior guy might have done 1000 legs a year (24 legs per 4 day trip), and over years that just kills you. INTL pilots also have problems after flying multiple timezones once a week for years. Not good.


Bye Bye--General Lee

Try a little less emotion and some rational thought. You obviously do not know my thoughts. I never was in favor of the age 60 rule. My three upgrades were due to growth, not retirements. If the rule changes, it will have some negative effect on my QOL, but not as much as others (I have already upgraded at my carrier that I hope to retire from).Yes, some are ready to go at 60, and should have already been gone before that. Simple rule: If you can do the job, you can do the job. Ability, not a birthday.

BTW, this year I have averaged a schedule of 12 days flying 38-39 legs per month. When nearly every "fact" that you state is full of spin or blatently incorrect, do not be suprised when "all of us" find it difficult to believe what you say.

The rule was enacted with no basis in fact regarding safety.

If you do not like rules that change, your are in the wrong business.

Of all of the pilots that I have seen terminated from air carriers, age (old) was not a factor.

The culture of job entitlement/organization politics is more of a threat to safety than age.

 

[General Lee]

Try a little less emotion and some rational thought. You obviously do not know my thoughts. I never was in favor of the age 60 rule. My three upgrades were due to growth, not retirements. If the rule changes, it will have some negative effect on my QOL, but not as much as others (I have already upgraded at my carrier that I hope to retire from).Yes, some are ready to go at 60, and should have already been gone before that. Simple rule: If you can do the job, you can do the job. Ability, not a birthday.

BTW, this year I have averaged a schedule of 12 days flying 38-39 legs per month. When nearly every "fact" that you state is full of spin or blatently incorrect, do not be suprised when "all of us" find it difficult to believe what you say.

The rule was enacted with no basis in fact regarding safety.

If you do not like rules that change, your are in the wrong business.

Of all of the pilots that I have seen terminated from air carriers, age (old) was not a factor.

The culture of job entitlement/organization politics is more of a threat to safety than age.

Thanks for clearing up that another upgrade is NOT in your future. I can see that it wouldn't bother you as much, since YOU are the captain. It is all clear to us now. What a joke. You probably won't even know it when you start screwing up royally, but your FOs will know. Age 60 is the right rule for everyone. And, some of your trips have less legs, but some are really rough. I talked to an OAK based pilot that had a 15 hour 2 day trip, with 9 legs. That is tough on anyone, especially an older pilot. IF you don't think so, then you are Chuck Yeager.

I agree that there are other things out there that are important also, but you and I knew the rules going into this job. You like to tout that everyone in Europe is changing the rule, so we should too. How about in China? The guys at Cathay Pacific have to retire at 55 for the passenger flights, and 60 for the cargo. I guess they have it wrong too. Why 55 for the passenger flights? Swissair did that too. I think 60 should stick, but I am willing to listen to 55 also.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Spooky 2]

Did the Supreme Court when they ruled against your Southwest pilots? They determined on their own that there would be a safety risk, and that if they extended the pilots age limit they would have to do the same for other professions, like cops and firemen.

As far as lack of proficiency firings, you know as well as I do that many of the senior guys intimidate some of the checkairmen, or appoint them. Do you see any junior guys as fleet managers? No way. It is all political, and when it comes down to it we all agree that 60 is a great time for most senior guys to leave and play golf until they die, which could be within 5 years of retirement. Imagine if that would happen on their retirment flight? Yikes.


Bye Bye--General Lee

Hey Lee, your so dicked up with your facts that you simply refuse to learn form your mistakes. Delta Air Lines, you know that sorry excuse of an airline that you work for, has always had junior pilots in management roles such as Fleet Captains, Program Mnagers, Flight Instructors APD's, Chief Pilots and VP Flight Ops. The exception is Flight Standards where you have to be able to hold the airplane to check on it. Get your facts straight and what is it about you and firemen? Must have a thing for sihiny red trucks and suspenders.

You sir, are a sorry excuse for a professional airman, much less a human being, at least that's what I have told by a couple of guys who claim to have flown with you.

 

[Jack-O-Lantern]

Age 65.....what does it mean to me......Delta Flight Attendants!

 

[Tim47SIP]

Selfishness or discrimination?

Thanks Chest, atleast you agree that the Supreme Court didn't think it was that important, and they also stated in their reasoning that they would have to allow other jobs the same retirement bumps, like Cops and Firemen.


Look, these guys are in a completely different situation than pilots are. They get a full compensated retirement at age 55 if they elect to retire. Most of them pay no SS tax (county or state workers) and do stay past 55. General, I understand your point and it is a very valid argument, but the reality of the whole problem here is that the law is pure age discrimination based on the definition. Yep, I knew the rules when I got in and I have well over ten years to go, but I still think both sides of this debate are predicated on each groups own selfishness. What we need to do is look at only documented evidence that this law is valid and if it is not, then it needs to go. If it shows that guys over 60 are dangerous then it needs to stay. The other option is move SS payments to 60 for pilots, that should pass fairly easily .

 

[Chest Rockwell]

Thanks for clearing up that another upgrade is NOT in your future. I can see that it wouldn't bother you as much, since YOU are the captain. It is all clear to us now. What a joke. You probably won't even know it when you start screwing up royally, but your FOs will know. Age 60 is the right rule for everyone. And, some of your trips have less legs, but some are really rough. I talked to an OAK based pilot that had a 15 hour 2 day trip, with 9 legs. That is tough on anyone, especially an older pilot. IF you don't think so, then you are Chuck Yeager.

I agree that there are other things out there that are important also, but you and I knew the rules going into this job. You like to tout that everyone in Europe is changing the rule, so we should too. How about in China? The guys at Cathay Pacific have to retire at 55 for the passenger flights, and 60 for the cargo. I guess they have it wrong too. Why 55 for the passenger flights? Swissair did that too. I think 60 should stick, but I am willing to listen to 55 also.


Bye Bye--General Lee

Again, you have no idea of ny motives in this issue. I have written and spoken to my senator regarding this rule since I was a 28 year-old FO. The rule has no basis in fact, period. I have waited for you to provide some factual evidence that supports age 60 as a mandatory retirement age. Thus far, your score is a big goose egg.

I hope to not fly past 55-57 years of age. And, by the way, I will know if I start losing it. I brief and demand that everyone I fly with speak up if my performance is nonstandard or causes them concern. Grow up. Rules change, or should we go back to the old reserve rules or some of the 135 flight time limits? BTW, I never said anything about European rules.

 

[RJP]

What does the age 65 rule mean to me?

....that I have to work five more years than I want.

 

[WhatRUSmokinGL?]

THAT'S IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

WE MUST HAVE A CALL TO ACTION!!! People are endangering us EVERWHERE!

I say we all march into each and every operating room and pull the scalpel out of each and every experienced surgeon’s hands if they are past their 60th birthday!!! They are making life and death decisions in a dynamic and time critical environment. Why just a little flick of the wrist can end a life! How can we allow this outrage?! They are 60+ years old!!!

Tomorrow we take on those Dentists, Oral Surgeons, and Endodontists, how can we let a decrepit 60+ year old person diagnose and operate on people?!! I mean REALLY!!! If they are past 60 how can we be sure they even know their own name?! They are working in extremely small spaces and can do so much harm because of their frailty!

After that we lobby the local, state, and federal court houses and legislative bodies. We can NOT let these elderly people decide monumental cases while using all of their experience gained throughout the decades of service! What if they become sleepy? You ALL know that they do!! They may fall asleep during a critical argument phase and miss important details. Life moves fast! We must end this insanity!

After we have cleaned up the hospitals, dental offices, and court houses we move on to the DMV’s!!!!

If you are looking at you 60th birthday, than you better be ready to sit in the right seat of that car!
We should begin to form road blocks everywhere and stop people on their way to bingo! Anyone at or past their 60th Birthday will be pulled from the vehicle and given 35 cents to secure a ride home. We can’t let anyone who maybe, just maybe might have a disease called age and experience out there on the roads. And you can see how this is dangerous because the insurance companies always charge so much more for seniors……… Oh wait, it’s the teenagers that cause the lion’s share of accidents and pay higher rates….. Well in the fashion of general lea, we won’t be stopped by the lack of supporting facts, we’ll plunge ahead anyway. Yep just like Miz Lea we’ll adopt a strategy of “all velocity and no vector!!!!”

Of course, we could always institute a quality assurance program for the doctors and have them perform any one of their protocols in front of a peer as a demonstration of their competence. We could do this every…..oh I don’t know…. say six months……………

And if these QA demonstrations are so useless why are we still doing them? They cost way too much to be frivolous.

And if we should keep the age 60 rule because maybe, jussssst maybe one in ten pilots is losing his/her skills, why not drop it to 35 just to be safe. Of course it doesn't matter that a pilot is checked every six months and performance trends can be noted. We definitely have the folks pouring out of the puppy-pilot mills to fill the seats vacated by over the hill 35 year olds.
(oh yeah some sarcasm is mixed in above)

I also did some research based on a response to one of my posts; I was factually incorrect in an earlier posting. Al Haynes was in fact 57 at the time of the accident. I read the Congressional testimony of Capt. Joseph Eichelkraut (Pres. of SAPA) and took it as factually correct. Capt Eichelkraut’s testimony says Al Haynes was 59, I believed his testimony. My mistake. According to the NTSB Brief of Accident, DCA89MA063, #437. The PIC, you know the guy incharge, making the decisions, was 57.

Source: http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/GenPDF.asp?id=DCA89MA063&rpt=fi

 

[Ganja60Heavy]

The Pilot Working Agreement needs to be amended to add:

- "When the pilot reaches his sixtieth (60th) birthday, monthly allowance to include one (1) box of Depends, or equivalent protective undergarments, for each duty period."

I mean, after all, 60 is OLD.

 

[PBRstreetgang]

In Britain the age was raised to 62 or 63, but the Captains have to move to FO at 60. That would still allow the upgrades to happen, but the recalls would slow. I still think that would be dangerous. By the time a pilot hits 60, he/she is well below their prime, well below.

Bye Bye--General Lee

Sioux City, Capt. Al Haynes had enough at 57 1/2, do/will you? But I guess 57 1/2 isnt 60, at 60 they woulda all died, your still clueless.
PBR

 

[General Lee]

Sioux City, Capt. Al Haynes had enough at 59 1/2, do/will you? But I guess 59 1/2 isnt 60, at 60 they woulda all died, your still clueless.
PBR

I will at age 60, and then I will be able to be on Flightinfo 24/7. I can't wait. If you think I am on here a lot now, just wait 19 years...... I will have over 2 million posts, and I will still be slamming SkyWest pilots for ruining the regional industry back in 2004. One pay rate for up to 99 seats? It will still be funny in 19 years. What a joke.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Tim47SIP]

Huh?

I will at age 60, and then I will be able to be on Flightinfo 24/7. I can't wait. If you think I am on here a lot now, just wait 19 years...... I will have over 2 million posts, and I will still be slamming SkyWest pilots for ruining the regional industry back in 2004. One pay rate for up to 99 seats? It will still be funny in 19 years. What a joke.

19 Years??? It will be 24 or more for you by the time you retire. Times are changin and we are all along for the ride! You can say all day long "I will retire at 60!" but we all know, $hit happens. Good luck to ya!:beer:

 

[GCAP]

I will at age 60, and then I will be able to be on Flightinfo 24/7. I can't wait. If you think I am on here a lot now, just wait 19 years...... I will have over 2 million posts, and I will still be slamming SkyWest pilots for ruining the regional industry back in 2004. One pay rate for up to 99 seats? It will still be funny in 19 years. What a joke.


Bye Bye--General Lee

First of all -- What does "BRANNIFF....BELIEVE IT" mean??
You don't have to wait until 60 to retire. you can do it now. Give one of those Sky West pilots a chance at the BIG TIME.
Have you read Dirk's CON paper? Do you have the gonads to vote NO now??
How children like you got hired I'll never know. I guess the cream was hired in "96