Age 65 and the "F" word.

[steveg]

No, that's the problem with the argument justifying the change. The extra 5 years only happen ONCE. That 5 years is RIGHT NOW. For me, it's 5 years of furlough, stagnation, etc. The only people that get 5 more years of Captain pay, are already captains. It does not benefit everyone in the same way. It's only a benefit for the select few, it's 5 more years of furlough and stagnation and no captain pay raises for everyone else.

 

[Mr.B]

No, that's the problem with the argument justifying the change. The extra 5 years only happen ONCE. That 5 years is RIGHT NOW. For me, it's 5 years of furlough, stagnation, etc. The only people that get 5 more years of Captain pay, are already captains. It does not benefit everyone in the same way. It's only a benefit for the select few, it's 5 more years of furlough and stagnation and no captain pay raises for everyone else.

Yup...its a "windfall"

 

[Patriot328]

.....

 

[Patriot328]

You just proved my point.Age 65 = bad if I do it,ok if you do it.

You said:

"As stated before, the over 60 guys progressed and gained seniority, from Age 60 retirements, during their careers and suddenly gained another 5 years at our expense."

Didn't YOU also gain another 5 years at top of scale ? Isn't it a wash-you didn't upgrade as fast,but you did stay a captain longer ?

You seriously believe that? Really? Not even CLOSE! Everyone is basically stuck where they are from 2007 until 2012... If you are a captain, then you get an "extra" five years as a captain.... If you are an FO, that's what you are getting.. if you are on reserve, same thing.. if you are furloughed.. well it will be five years before you get back in the game..

Not everyone gets to "stay a captain longer". The sh*t rolls down hill and everyone is stagnated, from the most senior captain at the oldest legacy to the most junior CFI looking for a regional position.

Now of course, the 5 year stagnation isn't absolute as companies will still grow and shrink (mostly shrink it seems) during that time and people can move up and down a little, but to say everyone gets an extra 5 years as a captain is complete bullsh*t... People are on furlough for five years waiting to get their careers going again.

 

[BoilerUP]

Don't people understand Time-Value of Money?

 

[kwick]

Don't people understand Time-Value of Money?

Don't people understand that pilots aren't second class citizens.

Pilots should be able to work as long as they are physically able.
Just like doctors and lawyers.

Thank God Sully was there instead of a marginally qualified guy.

 

[BrickTop]

Retirement and job replacement are a fallacy at the Major Level. Major Airlines are only continuing to shrink and downsize their fleets. Jobs at the Major Level will not be a par for par replacement. The best most should hope for is growth at the regional level as Mainline operators continue to grow shared risk operations. With a severely depressed economy and virtual meetings taking a massive leap in popularity I would expect Air travel to remain at its current capacity. And capacity is what determines job replacement during retirement surges. In short I think people are far to optimistic that there is a retirement wave to be seen that will offer movement for many stranded in the seniority lists.

 

[BoilerUP]

Don't people understand that pilots aren't second class citizens.

Of course they're not - but that doesn't change the fact that young pilots who face 5 years of career stagnation will never come close to recouping their lost wealth due to TVM, even with "more time as a Captain" as Bluestreak claimed.

Pilots should be able to work as long as they are physically able.
Just like doctors and lawyers.

They already can - just not at an air carrier.

Thank God Sully was there instead of a marginally qualified guy.

Not sure what that has to do with a discussion about retirement age...but humor me and let us all know what your definition of a "marginally qualified guy" would look like in context of this thread.

 

[fullsail]

You just proved my point.Age 65 = bad if I do it,ok if you do it.

You said:

"As stated before, the over 60 guys progressed and gained seniority, from Age 60 retirements, during their careers and suddenly gained another 5 years at our expense."

Didn't YOU also gain another 5 years at top of scale ? Isn't it a wash-you didn't upgrade as fast,but you did stay a captain longer ?

Absolutely not. Your original point was that I need to fall on my sword at Age 60 just because I was against Age 65. I clearly stated the reasons why Age 65 was bad for me. I clearly stated I would be happy to retire at Age 60 if it meant I would not be furloughed right now. Turns out, not getting paychecks kind of sucks. I wrote my Union and all my Senators during the rule change etc. and lost. You won. I don't give a damn if you retire on your 65th birthday. Nor should you give a damn if I retire on my 65th birthday. The game has changed just as you wanted. If I was a real d*ck, I would be pursuing Age 70 trying to change the game again.

The "just think you get another 5 years at the top of the payscale...isn't it great!" argument is totally flawed. First of all, I am not benefiting from Age 60 retirements anymore as the Age 65 guys were during their careers. The rule changed right? Secondly, That's 17 years from now for me. I could be without a medical or dead by then. I just didn't want to be furloughed now. You can't even predict 17 months in this business. Hell, we might even agree on that. Good day!

 

[livin'thesim]

Greedy old men.

And the point about career expections is quite valid.

Standard calls, old timer.

 

[livin'thesim]

Bluestreak has no concept on how to discount a future cash flow, and therefore has no idea on how to assess the actual cost of the five year change on junior guys.

I would go through the math, but no amount of logical proof changes those kinds of minds.

I'm tired of people who understand nothing about the mathematics of finance.

Idiocy.

 

[Fubijaakr]

Understanding finance and understanding the vagaries of the airline business are two different things.

 

[PsubS]

Understanding finance and understanding the vagaries of the airline business are two different things

Fubi from 5/28/08:

So much for 200 Airbii by 2014. And by asking for another $160m from investors, does that mean B6 has burned through the Lufthansa money already?

Looks like B6 is the next in line for Bankruptcy Court.

Irony...leaving an electronic trail years long that proves, yet again, that you are ignorant of the facts.

 

[get2flyin]

Just flew a trip with a 61 year old Captain. We weren't out of the alleyway on day one before he started telling me how great it was that he was going to get to work to 65. After all, the mean old company was "sending him packing at 60 with no pension and telling him not to let the door hit him on the ass on the way out". Mind you, the company never had a pension so it's not like he got tricked out of it. So after 23 years with the company and probably at least 15 as a Captain AND a military pension, he expects to make an EXTRA $750K which is all going to be gravy because he wasn't counting on it. He picks up every extra trip he can get because maybe the union might put a stop to that and limit guys to 85 hours of Credit. Never mind they would do this as a means to save MORE guys (myself included) from getting furloughed. After all, we have about 175 guys on the street. He's telling me about how he thinks he might buy a second house in the mountains now, never mind the fact that I had already told him I'm scheduled to get furloughed in the next 3 months. We only had one 2.5 hour leg but he wouldn't stop talking about how he just loves going to work and it's so great he gets 5 more years to enjoy it before retirement. I finally said, "Well, let me tell you about my retirement....Buddy, I am F'ed. I'm 37 and I got my first kid on the way. If we furlough and merge, I know I'm never coming back and expect I'll spend the rest of my days commuting to Asia to do contract work. If we don't, I'll sit on the bottom of the list until the you guys start to retire again (*assuming we don't furlough at a later date). Best case, I upgrade in about 12 years which will be an 18 year upgrade and then my first kid goes to College when I turn 55 which oughta cost about about $400K by then and I don't envision pilot salaries going up. So, enjoy your 2nd "gravy" house, because I'm F-ed". He tries to make me feel better by suggesting maybe some of the old guys might retire at 62 or something like that. I say, "Wait, you're on the top of the food chain. You hold weekends and holidays off and you just told me you're going to waltz out of here with and extra $750K in gravy. Just how many guys are going to walk away from that?". But he keeps blathering away. Eventually I'm reading the USAToday and totally ignoring him but he just keeps going. By the end of the third (and final) day, I was ready to fake a seizure to shut him up.

I don't bitch about the age changing because it was inevitable. Besides, it's ancient history now and it's not worth the aggravation. But old timers, here's a thought...I won't bitch about it if you promise to just keep your enthusiasm of having everyone senior to you gone, thus leaving you an extra 5 years to bask in your "entitled" seniority. The flight attendants and I will continue to pretend to laugh at the dumb jokes you've been telling over and over for the last 10 years and in no time, the four day trip will be over and we can all go our separate ways.