Age 60 informal poll

[Andy]

Here's another report. Table 2 on page 5 is an eye opener.
http://www.faa.gov/library/reports/medical/oamtechreports/2000s/media/0416.pdf

 

[UndauntedFlyer]

Here's another report. Table 2 on page 5 is an eye opener.

Andy: You just don't get it even yet. None of this make any difference when the foreigners can fly in this country up to age 65. That's all that counts to anyone now. For every study that can be produced, there is something else that says something different. The only fact for sure it that Americans are just as healthy as foreigners and if foreigners can fly here so can Americans.

And as far as ALPA and APA are concerned, these organizations have lost all credability on the Hill as everywhere else because of their conflicting statements of Woerth and prior Presidents of ALPA. ALPA and APA are only proven to be full of BS in everything they say. No one will believe anything they say any longer.

So no matter what you put forward, it is a waste of your effort. Age 60 is coming to the USA and soon. It will happen fast and you can not stop it. And it will possibly come in a way you may not expect.

 

[Andy]

I've found that many who make predictions are like broken clocks ... they're right no more than twice a day. You may be right about an eventual rule change, but I'll bet you that 29 Jan 2007 comes first.

 

[Phaedrus]

I usually find that when one has lost an argument, one resorts to "they're doing it so we should too". Brilliant defense.
Whether it comes or not, be honest with yourself why you want what you want.

 

[Whistlin' Dan]

Here's another report. Table 2 on page 5 is an eye opener.
http://www.faa.gov/library/reports/medical/oamtechreports/2000s/media/0416.pdf

That certainly IS an eye opener!

Clearly, pilots between the ages of 34 and 40 are the safest. At least, they're the least likely to become incapacitated. As the data shows, airline pilots under the age of 34 or over the age of 40 are more likely to become incapacitated. If the data presented is to be taken at face value, then it becomes obvious that allowing ANYBODY outside of that 6-year age window to act as a required crewmember puts the public at increased risk.

If the Federal Government is going to mandate a minimum age at which one can attain an ATP and a maximum age at which one can serve in that capacity (as they do now), then it follows that those ages should be 34 and 40, respectively.

I think you've hit on a solution which will not only make air travel safer, but reduce the numbers of available pilots (thus increasing wages). In addition, it will virtually guarantee upgrades to Captain within 3 years of date-of-hire.

Gee, I don't know why I didn't think of that...

 

[Spooky 2]

The graph on page 24 says it all.
http://www.faa.gov/library/reports/medical/age60/media/age60_3.pdfh

Andy, you are avoiding the question I posed. Tell me about the accidents at your airline over the last 35 years and what were the ages of those involved? As a matter of fact tell us about the age ratios for FAA violations at Delta. Don't bother BSing us as I know what they were when I left and they were not weighted to anyone even close to 60. Usually fairly young, by Delta standards, new Captains. Clean up your own house before you start trashing the other groups.

 

[Whistlin' Dan]

I usually find that when one has lost an argument, one resorts to "they're doing it so we should too".

And I often find that when one cannot offer a logical, reasoned explanation of why a thing is done a certain way, they will say, "Because that's the way we've ALWAYS done it"

 

[UndauntedFlyer]

Why (do) you want what you want?

That answer is simple. Just ask yourself why you want to work? It's the same answer for you and me and anyone else in good health. We all want to provide for our families. Isn't that what everyone wants, to earn a living at our trade? Do you finally understand this now? Has it taken all this including hundreds of posts to really explain this and for everyone to see that this change will be happening soon?

 

[Phaedrus]

Hey Whistler, nice spin. You'll notice I never said "that's the way we've always done it" as a defense of my position. I said that's the way the game has been played since we all became players. I need neither offer logic nor reason because I'm not arguing as if this is some moral battle, no, I can see the reality of the fight. You all are claiming discrimination as your rallying cry as if you had no idea what the rules were when you started. The reality is you knew full well. Now, and at the expense of those below you, you'd like some more. If you want to change the rules of the game midstream, then I call BS. What you didn't know you had to retire at 60 when you started?

 

[UndauntedFlyer]

The reality is you knew full well.

So be honest for a moment. If you were now age 59 and only had what had been saved, had a wife and a high school or grade school age kid to support, would you just quit (retire) at that point? Please keep in mind that there is absolutely nothing magic or special about age 60. At least at 59.5 you can draw on a 401k without penalty, and at 62 you can collect partial S/S and at 65 you can draw full S/S and Medicare.

So that's the question. Can you and others who seem to be against this change please address that question? I would like to hear your answers.

 

[Andy]

Andy, you are avoiding the question I posed. Tell me about the accidents at your airline over the last 35 years and what were the ages of those involved? As a matter of fact tell us about the age ratios for FAA violations at Delta. Don't bother BSing us as I know what they were when I left and they were not weighted to anyone even close to 60. Usually fairly young, by Delta standards, new Captains. Clean up your own house before you start trashing the other groups.

No, I wasn't avoiding anything you stated: "Please direct us to your statistics regarding the older "airline" pilots and their increased accident rates." I did that.
Now, what do you want? Accident rates over the last 35 years at my specific airline? That will take a little while, since I'd have to hand tabulate it. What exactly would be the point? The sample size would be so small that the results would not be statistically significant.

How exactly do you suggest that I get data for the FAA violations at Delta? Out of all the times that I've flown on Delta aircraft, I have never sat in the cockpit. Oh, I get it. For some reason, you think that I worked for Delta. I regret to inform you that your cognitive abilities are deteriorating to the point where you are confused as to which company I flew for. Amazing considering that my airline has been discussed on this thread within the last ten pages.

 

[Spooky 2]

No, I wasn't avoiding anything you stated: "Please direct us to your statistics regarding the older "airline" pilots and their increased accident rates." I did that.
Now, what do you want? Accident rates over the last 35 years at my specific airline? That will take a little while, since I'd have to hand tabulate it. What exactly would be the point? The sample size would be so small that the results would not be statistically significant.

How exactly do you suggest that I get data for the FAA violations at Delta? Out of all the times that I've flown on Delta aircraft, I have never sat in the cockpit. Oh, I get it. For some reason, you think that I worked for Delta. I regret to inform you that your cognitive abilities are deteriorating to the point where you are confused as to which company I flew for. Amazing considering that my airline has been discussed on this thread within the last ten pages.

You are right Andy, I did think you were a Delta guy. Forgive me as I waited until there were 600 post on this subject before I jumped in. My mistake and I'm truly humbled by your modesty. I suspect that your airline has had similar issues and I doubt that all these accidents and incidents that have happened in your backyard are a result of older pilots. End of story.

 

[Phaedrus]

Undaunted: My answer is "yes". I would retire. Why? Because I knew that I'd have to retire at that age when I started. Would I possibly have to get another, lower paying, less prestigious job? Maybe, and I wouldn't hesitate. Would I have to contract a little bit in my living style? Maybe, and I wouldn't hesitate. Tough choices to be sure, but that's what I signed up to do.

 

[Andy]

I suspect that your airline has had similar issues and I doubt that all these accidents and incidents that have happened in your backyard are a result of older pilots.

Obviously, not all accidents are due to older pilots. However, based on number of hours flown, the accident rate takes an upward turn at age 55. The chart makes a similar downward turn with young pilots, leveling out in the low to mid 30s.
The latter high accident rates (those of youthful pilots) are understandable due to lack of experience and no one argues with them.
It is the former accident rates that some seem to have a hard time grasping in spite of there being concrete evidence that the accident rate per 100,000 flight hours increases in the age 55 range. This has been argued ever since a medical panel recommended to the FAA back in the 50s to make age 60 mandatory retirement age for pilots, a decision that was based on multiple scientific studies.
I'd be willing to discard the 60-63 group due to the small sample size, but it follows a logical extension of the results for the 54-57, 55-58, and 56-59 age group bands and is therefore consistent with the trend data.
Again, note that the data only includes professional 121/135 pilots.

As for the tone of my response, I gave you a civil response in post #594/598 to your sarcastic post #592. You chose to again respond with sarcasm in post #606, accusing me of not answering your question in post #592 (in which you never asked me a question about Delta's accident rate; you may want to reread it).
Based on your yet again sarcastic post #612, it appears that my response in post #611 hurt your overly sensitive feelings. Since you appear to be overly sensitive to sarcastic responses, your best course of action would be to not make sarcastic posts. If you can't take it, don't dish it out.

 

[Spooky 2]

Obviously, not all accidents are due to older pilots. However, based on number of hours flown, the accident rate takes an upward turn at age 55. The chart makes a similar downward turn with young pilots, leveling out in the low to mid 30s.
The latter high accident rates (those of youthful pilots) are understandable due to lack of experience and no one argues with them.
It is the former accident rates that some seem to have a hard time grasping in spite of there being concrete evidence that the accident rate per 100,000 flight hours increases in the age 55 range. This has been argued ever since a medical panel recommended to the FAA back in the 50s to make age 60 mandatory retirement age for pilots, a decision that was based on multiple scientific studies.
I'd be willing to discard the 60-63 group due to the small sample size, but it follows a logical extension of the results for the 54-57, 55-58, and 56-59 age group bands and is therefore consistent with the trend data.
Again, note that the data only includes professional 121/135 pilots.

As for the tone of my response, I gave you a civil response in post #594/598 to your sarcastic post #592. You chose to again respond with sarcasm in post #606, accusing me of not answering your question in post #592 (in which you never asked me a question about Delta's accident rate; you may want to reread it).
Based on your yet again sarcastic post #612, it appears that my response in post #611 hurt your overly sensitive feelings. Since you appear to be overly sensitive to sarcastic responses, your best course of action would be to not make sarcastic posts. If you can't take it, don't dish it out.

Andy.....I hope this gets me banned for life. Go ******************** YOURSELF! ***********************************.

 

[Big Beer Belly]

Andy.....I hope this gets me banned for life. Go ******************** YOURSELF! ***********************************.

Spooky you old geezer ... SETTLE DOWN!

BBB

 

[Andy]

Andy.....I hope this gets me banned for life. Go ******************** YOURSELF! ***********************************.

Dude, calm down. I'm not going to complain to the mods; I just got off of a weeks' ban for my posts on this board (somebody reported me; I no longer post anything against the TOS).

We obviously disagree on the age 60 rule. It was initiated as a safety measure (in spite of the cloak and dagger insinuations). There is no one at the FAA with a reason to continue that rule unless they felt that safety would be compromised if it changed. If you think about it for a moment, they've got a shortage of FAA controllers due to the 55 mandatory retirement age ... raising pilot retirement ages would open the door to allow them to bump up controller retirement ages beyond 55, helping them alleviate the shortage.
You may disagree with the rule, but until someone posts anything more than anecdotal statements to justify a change (such as valid scientific studies), I will continue to oppose a change for safety reasons. Doesn't it strike you as odd that ICAO is requiring one pilot in multiplace aircraft to be under 60, and not allowing any over 60 pilots to fly single place aircraft? If it were safe to allow pilots over the age of 60, you wouldn't have those restrictions.

Now, as for your suggestion. Some of it was bleeped out, but I think that I got the jist of your statement. I'm almost positive that I am anatomically incapable of performing such a feat, so I will be unable to comply with your request. :laugh:

 

[Whistlin' Dan]

You all are claiming discrimination as your rallying cry as if you had no idea what the rules were when you started. The reality is you knew full well. Now, and at the expense of those below you, you'd like some more. If you want to change the rules of the game midstream, then I call BS. What you didn't know you had to retire at 60 when you started?

What if I didn't think it should be repealed because it was discriminatory? What if I thought it should be repealed because it was stupid and arbitrary? Would that make a difference?

The notion that "rules" should not be changed after one starts their career is probably the most specious argument against repeal of this rule that I've heard. The "rules" governing how we conduct our business are anything but static. That's why we have memo books, recurrent training, and why we file revisions to our manuals every week. We live in a world of change, and as professionals, we're expected to adapt. We're no different than most other professions in that regard.

I'm curious...other than this "age 60" rule, are there any other rules that you were told would never, under any circumstances, change during the course of your career? And who told you that?

I don't know.... Maybe it's a training problem.

 

[Phaedrus]

Yes, maybe a training problem. All the changes, revisions, and training you'd like to draw an analogy to are to increase safety. Beyond that small point it's a poor analogy on the face of it. Let me ask you a question to prove the point: when you began your career did you honestly expect changes to your Jepps and regulations? How about the age 60 rule?
Oh, I can't think of any better reason to repeal a law that everyone in the US has operated under for decades than your belief that it is stupid.

 

[Whistlin' Dan]

Yes, maybe a training problem. All the changes, revisions, and training you'd like to draw an analogy to are to increase safety. Beyond that small point it's a poor analogy on the face of it. Let me ask you a question to prove the point: when you began your career did you honestly expect changes to your Jepps and regulations? How about the age 60 rule?

Yes, I expected daily changes to my schedule, weekly changes to my Jepps, monthly changes to my Ops manual, and semi-annual changes to the FAR's. What I didn't expect were the changes to our business, both in terms of who/what flew on airplanes, and what kinds of changes deregulation would bring to our industry. I don't think very many people expected that. A few of those who did are millionaires today.

I didn't like all of the changes of course, but I adapted to all of them nicely, as I'm sure you have...and will, when this "age 60" thing is changed.

Come to think of it, the National speed limit was 55 mph when I started in the flying business. Those who opposed raising it to 65 mph cited concerns over safety. But you know, by some miracle, we came through that OK too.

If you're going to cite "safety" as a reason to force otherwise healthy pilots into early retirement, then you're going to have to address the sharp rise in accidents experienced by those pilots over 40 as well as those over 60. Personally, if I'm going to have to start another career, I'd rather do it at 40 than at 60.

 

[Phaedrus]

Yep, I'll adapt. That's the game. However, I'll also be at peace because I know I've been honest with myself. I give you credit for not hoisting the moral superiority flag about discrimination and boiling it down to what it really is: a way to keep making the green at expense of those below you.

 

[71KILO]

Phaed,
You get on with FedEx?

 

[Phaedrus]

71K: Yep! Life is good. What's up on your front?

 

[Klako]

Yep, I'll adapt. That's the game. However, I'll also be at peace because I know I've been honest with myself. I give you credit for not hoisting the moral superiority flag about discrimination and boiling it down to what it really is: a way to keep making the green at expense of those below you.

I fly for one of the best regional airlines but I make less as a 17 year captain than most FOs who fly for the majors. I do not have a pension with my company. I do have a very modest 401K but not enough to survive on. When I am forced to retire in three months, I will not have a retiree medical plan through my company. The only way that I can survive is working for at least another 2 years. It has been the concentrated efforts of ALPA and APA that have thwarted any chance of allowing me to keep my job for another two years. It galls me every time I read where some selfish ALPA pilot claims that extending the retirement age would allow me to "keep making the green at expense of those below" me. Junior ALPA and APA pilots are forcing me into poverty just so they can enjoy the high life a little bit sooner. It is disgusting that a labor union would dictate the age that all pilots in the airline industry must retire.

When did younger pilots became more valuable than experienced pilots?
Why would ALPA, a labor union, actively support a rule that discriminates against its own members, forces them to leave their workplaces and leave them with reduced benefits?

I am tempted to make the next jumpseater wearing an ALPA pin to remove that offensive ALPA pin before he/she rides in my jump seat.

 

[pipe]

ALPA President Henry Duffy’s made this statement in the 1990 Baker v FAA “It has never been my belief that professional expertise diminishes at age 60, on the contrary, our senior members possess a wealth of knowledge, aviation history, and insight that have been developed through their years of experience, which are irreplaceable”. He also stated during this testimony “Pilots over 55 comprise 5-6% of the total membership. The other 95% selfishly view the forced retirement of older pilots as their guaranteed path and a God given right to their promotions!”


Is "ANDY" a member of that 95%?

Sounds like they'd be great candidates to write a book, instruct in a sim, teach a class, etc. It is true that the longer you've been around, the more you've seen.

What is glaringly absent above is any actual data regarding diminished cognitive ability, accident rates, etc.

BTW, how old was Hank when he made his touchy-feely and completely devoid of hard-fact statement?

PIPE

PS- Here we go with that pesky majority thing again. Why does that keep rearing its ugly head everywhere there are elections?

 

[miles otoole]

I fly for one of the best regional airlines but I make less as a 17 year captain than most FOs who fly for the majors. I do not have a pension with my company. I do have a very modest 401K but not enough to survive on. When I am forced to retire in three months, I will not have a retiree medical plan through my company. The only way that I can survive is working for at least another 2 years. It has been the concentrated efforts of ALPA and APA that have thwarted any chance of allowing me to keep my job for another two years. It galls me every time I read where some selfish ALPA pilot claims that extending the retirement age would allow me to "keep making the green at expense of those below" me. Junior ALPA and APA pilots are forcing me into poverty just so they can enjoy the high life a little bit sooner. It is disgusting that a labor union would dictate the age that all pilots in the airline industry must retire.

When did younger pilots became more valuable than experienced pilots?
Why would ALPA, a labor union, actively support a rule that discriminates against its own members, forces them to leave their workplaces and leave them with reduced benefits?

I am tempted to make the next jumpseater wearing an ALPA pin to remove that offensive ALPA pin before he/she rides in my jump seat.

You won't get a response from them because your situation doesn't fit their "sitting at the 777 trough for the past 10 years" argument.

 

[vetrider]

Politics does make for strange bedfellows. It would be my guess that the only thought the undaunted flyers of the world gave to the klakos of the world would have been something along the lines of "loser at some non sked who couldn't get on at a real airline." Now undaunted flyer gives klako the high five for the best post he has ever seen on the subject. Interesting indeed.

 

[Andy]

If you're going to cite "safety" as a reason to force otherwise healthy pilots into early retirement, then you're going to have to address the sharp rise in accidents experienced by those pilots over 40 as well as those over 60. Personally, if I'm going to have to start another career, I'd rather do it at 40 than at 60.

Whistlin' Dan, the accident rate takes an upward turn at 55, not 40.

 

[Andy]

You won't get a response from them because your situation doesn't fit their "sitting at the 777 trough for the past 10 years" argument.

Wrong, Miles. Klako is not telling you the entire story.
Klako retired from the military as a CW4; he has been getting a monthly pension for the last 17+ years. That also entitles him to very inexpensive medical care. Klako will also claim that he chose to fly at his current employer (Horizon) because it was close to home and that he expected to be able to fly until 65.

Now, let’s dissect this a bit. I’d be willing to bet that Klako does not have a bachelor’s degree (his choice), which almost completely rules out a job at a major airline.
Klako will also claim that he can’t afford medical care because his 15+ year doctor won’t accept Tricare. Again, his choice to continue to go to that doctor rather than change to another doctor.
Klako hasn’t mentioned that the rule which made Horizon go from 135 to 121 ops in 1999 had been around since 1995. Klako knew that he’d have to retire at 60 back in 1995.

As far as Klako’s current pay, a 17 year Horizon captain on the CRJ-700 is making $117/hr. If he’s not holding CRJ-700 captain, that’s his choice.
He also has a 10% match for his 401k. If he has chosen to not put away 10%, that’s his choice.

Klako’s had a lot of time to make different choices, but he has chosen not to. I was furloughed in 2002 and had to make major course corrections in my career. Klako has chosen to not make course corrections and is now expending his time and energy in a fruitless effort to change the age 60 rule before he turns into a pumpkin.
There have been efforts to have the FAA make regulatory changes to the age 60 rule, but the FAA has not done so due to safety concerns. There have been efforts to have judicial system change the age 60, but all judges have ruled against them.
The latest effort to change the age 60 rule is through the legislative process. The politics is indeed interesting to watch. While many politicians will pay lip service and state publicly that they are in favor of change, no one is bringing the bill forward for a vote on the Senate side and it's bottled up in subcommittee on the House side. And it won’t come up for a vote because Congress has more significant issues that they are concentrating on. For us pilots this seems monumental, but for politicians, it’s not even on the radar screen. Even Jim Gibbons’ radar screen.

 

[Phaedrus]

You won't get a response from them because your situation doesn't fit their "sitting at the 777 trough for the past 10 years" argument.

You beat me to it Andy. I was only going to say that my non-response was due to:

I am tempted to make the next jumpseater wearing an ALPA pin to remove that offensive ALPA pin before he/she rides in my jump seat.

I know, he was merely tempted.