Age 60 informal poll

[b757driver]

someone say politics??

repeat of an old thread, but it fits here. Age 60 was forced on the pilots back in 1958. ALPA was still fighting to get it repealed up until about 1970. This rule had nothing to do with safety; it was a deal between two W.W.II USAF Generals, AAL's C.R. Smith and Pete Quesada (sp.?) the first head of the FAA. It was to get rid of high paid pilots at the top of AAL the seniority list. It was done in the name of safety, because who can be against safety. It is like motherhood and patriotism

Like I said, politics, pure and simple!
And everybody (well, some of us) were led to believe that it WAS in the name of safety.
And we all know that politicians and CEOs always tell the truth and nothing but the truth....lol !!!

 

[filejw]

YIP is right on the money history and all. And I'm an old guys who is afraid of the change as I think the IRS will change the pension rules. Just like he said. Me Me Me.

 

[Andy]

Andy: With answers like this do you think anyone will believe anything you write now. Then why not quit now if the age-60 rule changes, or at 55, or 59 1/2 or 62 or 65? What is so magical about age 60. Please answer this question please. Thank you.

Nice edit job on my response; you should consider running someone's political campaign. You've got a real talent for creative editing.

I don't know what's magical about 60; you'd have to dig up the research on it. I would, but the only problem that I see with 60 is that it's too old. Based on the FAA data that I've posted, I would be in favor of reducing the retirement age to 55. Pilots over 55 are a definite safety risk.
If you've got issues with the age 60 rule, dig up any FAA documents from the 50s that discuss the change and their safety rationale behind the change. I've already done a lot of research and posted multiple links. You've done none of that; you're just winging it, trying to find a plausible reason to cover your greed and lack of integrity.

If this is truly a 'cause' that you be fighting for, is it safe to assume that you will continue to champion this effort after January 28, or will you join the rest of the 59ers who have recently 'seen the light,' only to disappear once there is no personal benefit to them?

 

[Andy]

Here we go again, experienced Hero Pilot from ALOHA forced to retire. Must make room for new pilots. Can they equal this captain?

http://starbulletin.com/2006/08/27/business/story02.html

Newsflash: EVERYONE'S REPLACABLE. Even you.
Are you really able to fit through a cockpit door with an ego that large?

 

[Andy]

A person’s age must not be the sole determination of one’s ability to safely perform the duties of an airline pilot.

I wholeheartedly agree with you. Now, what's your brilliant solution to get rid of unsafe pilots?
In my experience, most pilots would never call it quits; their egos are too large to admit that the physical and mental abilities are diminishing. Heck, one of the studies cited by the paper that you posted a link to verified that vis a vis aging pilots' visual acuity.

Come up with a REAL solution, not just another 'arbitrary' number.

 

[jbDC9]

Yes, that is what we have now. The senior more experienced pilot is unjustly robbed of his job just to placate junior pilots who smell blood every time a senior pilot nears age 60.

Again with the broken record, or beating a dead horse if you prefer; yet again you mention "The senior more experienced pilot is unjustly robbed..."

Klako, please, would you enlighten us as to how that "senior more experienced pilot" came to be in that position?? Or are you going to just ignore that tidy little fact like you always do and keep you head buried in the sand, hoping that it's not true? Perhaps you actually think that the 50+ yr old senior guys were born as graybeard captains and never needed the Age 60 rule to move up the list?

 

[catIIIc]

Again with the broken record, or beating a dead horse if you prefer; yet again you mention "The senior more experienced pilot is unjustly robbed..."

Klako, please, would you enlighten us as to how that "senior more experienced pilot" came to be in that position?? Or are you going to just ignore that tidy little fact like you always do and keep you head buried in the sand, hoping that it's not true? Perhaps you actually think that the 50+ yr old senior guys were born as graybeard captains and never needed the Age 60 rule to move up the list?

That fact is always conviently left out of the arguments made by guys like Klako and Undaunted. They just don't seem to grasp that they have benefited their entire career by this rule and now that it is there turn it is unfair.

 

[Klako]

That fact is always conviently left out of the arguments made by guys like Klako and Undaunted. They just don't seem to grasp that they have benefited their entire career by this rule and now that it is there turn it is unfair.

Andy, CatIIC and jbDC9 just don't seem to grasp that the “Age 60 Rule” has been and will always be wrong. Ageism and age discrimination simply must not continue to be institutionalized by a federal law such as we now have in Section 121.383(c) of the FARs, commonly referred to as the FAA’s “Age 60 Rule”. When the State deprives a person of their liberty to work in a profession that they are qualified, this violates that person’s equal protection guarantied by our Constitution under the Fourteenth Amendment. This may be the last chance that an obvious wrong can be corrected. Experienced professional airline pilots are fighting for their careers, their future and their ability to earn a living in a chosen profession. At the very least, pilots wish to work to the age of 65 when they are eligible for Medicare and the Social Security fund distribution age. If the junior pilots of today want to have the choice of working past age 60 someday, then those junior pilots must understand that this change must happen NOW. The appropriateness and the circumstances that could effect a change to happen have never been better than they are today and those circumstances may never again become any better. If bills S.65 and H.R.65 that are currently in congress should fail, we may never again see an opportunity to abolish the “Age 60 Rule”.

 

[UndauntedFlyer]

Age 60 - Reasons for Change


1. The rest of the civilized world will standardize 65 as the upper limit when the ICAO rule takes effect. Member states in ICAO can choose to disregard the 65 limit and impose something lower, but they will not be able to deny other member states from operating in the non-compliant member's airspace. So unless the US changes we will have virtually every other nation operating in our airspace with pilots in command up to age 65 as long as the other pilot is under 60. This is age discrimination in it purest form. In private industry, this activity has been struck down by the EEOC on 17 consecutive occasions.

2. The cost savings to the federal government are enormous. We have a brand new study (7/18/06) prepared by Mr. Darryl Jenkins that details nearly $1 billion per year net revenue positive to the Treasury from the combined effects of keeping pilots on tax roles and off federally subsidized programs like PBGC, Medicare, Social Security, etc. Mr. Jenkins is highly credentialed and recognized in DC in this arena. He authored the Handbook of Airline Economics and has consulted to the FAA, DOT, and NTSB.

3. Safety is no longer a deterrent. If safety were a concern based on age 60:
A. Why did ALPA negotiate and sign off on the Air Canada Jazz contract allowing pilots in command to work to 65? Take a look at their route structure sometime.
B. Why has ALPA been silent about the fact that co-pilots on foreign carriers have been operating in our airspace for years over the age of 60? Why isn't ALPA protesting right now to the FAA and DOT about foreign carriers with over-60 captains using our airspace beginning this fall?
C. Why did ALPA fight the age-60 rule as discriminatory for the first 20 years of its existence?
D. Why have virtually all the member states to ICAO adopted the rule? Are they not concerned about safety? Case in point: Japan went to 63 many years ago and studied their own pilots in the post-60 population. After 15,000 man years of data collected on that group with no perceivable compromise to safety, they adopted 65.
E. Why haven't the collective corporate managements of US based carriers disavowed and terminated all their code-sharing agreements with their foreign partners who employ pilots over the age of 60? Why would the IATA support such a change if it were unsafe?

4. There is strong support from unions. The Teamsters representing over 7000 pilots at 14 carriers have testified before the Senate Commerce Committee urging Congress pass both S.65 and HR.65. SWAPA representing all the Southwest pilots with strong endorsement all the way to Herb Kelleher have been fighting for this change for years. Jet Blue pilots and management have formed a coalition team to carry the same message to Congress. We have strong letters of endorsement from both the AARP and the Seniors Coalition.

5. Raising medical standards for all pilots or older pilots is not an issue. Federal Air Surgeon Dr. Frederick Tilton has said he sees no need to change medical certification standards based on the potential change to the upper age limit. Our standards are already compatible with most ICAO member states.

So there you have it.

 

[Andy]

1. The rest of the civilized world will standardize 65 as the upper limit when the ICAO rule takes effect. Member states in ICAO can choose to disregard the 65 limit and impose something lower, but they will not be able to deny other member states from operating in the non-compliant member's airspace. So unless the US changes we will have virtually every other nation operating in our airspace with pilots in command up to age 65 as long as the other pilot is under 60. This is age discrimination in it purest form. In private industry, this activity has been struck down by the EEOC on 17 consecutive occasions.

Well, I can name a couple of other countries that are keeping 60 as the max age ... France and China. So it's not universal.

2. The cost savings to the federal government are enormous. We have a brand new study (7/18/06) prepared by Mr. Darryl Jenkins that details nearly $1 billion per year net revenue positive to the Treasury from the combined effects of keeping pilots on tax roles and off federally subsidized programs like PBGC, Medicare, Social Security, etc. Mr. Jenkins is highly credentialed and recognized in DC in this arena. He authored the Handbook of Airline Economics and has consulted to the FAA, DOT, and NTSB.

Apparantly you didn't read Captain Hunter's response to a letter in the Ft Worth Telegram on the cost savings. Here's a reprint, thanks to AA767AV8TOR:
In the air beyond age 60?

By RALPH HUNTER

Special to the Star-Telegram

In an Aug. 27 commentary opposing the current mandatory retirement age for airline pilots, Southwest Airlines Pilots' Association President Joseph Eichelkraut argued that allowing pilots to fly past age 60 could save the federal government "billions" and cited a recent study as proof.
Eichelkraut could not be more mistaken.

Eichelkraut didn't mention that this "study" was paid for and produced at the behest of the SWPA, JetBlue Airways and a small coalition of other pilots seeking changes to the current retirement age. The "study" reflects a fundamental ignorance of, among other things, common business practices.
It assumes that the federal government loses Social Security and income tax revenue when a pilot retires at age 60, which is erroneous. When one pilot retires, another pilot replaces him -- just as in any other industry when workers retire. The job itself doesn't go away. After all, when was the last time you saw an airplane flying around with an empty seat in the cockpit?

The "study" also ignores the fact that it's irrelevant to the Social Security Administration whether you begin receiving Social Security benefits at age 62 1/2 or wait until age 65. If you elect to receive benefits as soon as you're eligible -- at age 62 1/2 -- the Social Security Administration reduces your monthly benefit accordingly. The total obligation to you does not increase.

Many pilots who retire at age 60 work in some other capacity after retirement, resulting in a net positive for the federal government vs. the deficit that the "study" purports. The retired pilot continues earning income and continues to pay Social Security tax and federal income tax.
Space constraints preclude additional examples, but suffice it to say that the "study" that Eichelkraut cited is so rife with errors that it borders on analytical malpractice.

More important, Eichel-kraut completely sidestepped the overriding reason behind age 60 retirement: the safety of the traveling public.
Since the Federal Aviation Administration introduced mandatory retirement at age 60 for airline pilots, we have seen accidents attributed to a variety of causes. However, not one single airline accident has been attributed to the sudden or subtle effects of aging. By any measure, mandatory retirement at age 60 for our nation's commercial pilots has proven highly successful.

We sympathize with those pilots who wish to extend their working careers, but public safety must take precedence over financial considerations. Other safety-sensitive occupations in the U.S. also have mandatory retirement ages, including air traffic controllers, who must retire at age 56.
The reality is that no one is immune from the natural effects of aging. Our cognitive skills degenerate and our reflexes slow, while the death rate climbs steeply after age 60 for all Americans. Heart attacks and strokes are among the leading causes of death in later life, and both occur with little or no warning -- not the sort of surprise you want in the cockpit of a jet airliner.

A recent Federal Aviation Administration study confirmed that the aging process adversely affects the cognitive abilities of even the healthiest individuals, starting around age 57. As a result, the FAA does not support changing the age-60 rule.

Even the recent proposals by the International Civil Aviation Organization to increase the mandatory retirement age for non-U.S. pilots requires that one pilot in the cockpit be under the age of 60. Apparently the ICAO has its own questions about how old is too old.

The point at which the gradual physical and cognitive decline becomes unsafe is impossible to determine using current technology. In fact, the central issue of the entire debate is that current medical and performance-based testing does not provide a safe, reliable and comprehensive method to screen for the effects of aging.

This salient fact is even tacitly acknowledged by the opponents of age-60 retirement. They do not point to any new and proven testing methods. They simply want to replace one mandatory retirement age with another and hope for the best.

Although we strongly support additional testing and research, we do not condone conducting safety experiments on the traveling public.
As firsthand observers of the very real impact of aging on pilot skills, the majority of our nation's commercial airline pilots support the existing policy. In the exacting environment of commercial aviation, the public's safety must always come first.

Ralph Hunter is president of the Allied Pilots Association, the union that represents more than 12,000 pilots at American Airlines. The APA and American are both based in Fort Worth.

3. Safety is no longer a deterrent.

Please. It's all about safety. After a pilot hits 55 (on average), the deterioration of their physical and cognitive abilities more than outweigh the 'experience' factor.

Undaunted Flyer, you were hired at age 22 (yes folks, he was hired at United at age 22!). You've had a long time in the cockpit. Time to step aside before you become excessively dangerous. But instead of ending your career in a dignified manner, you've chosen a course of action where it's all about you. Have you noticed that everyone voicing a strong opinion on extending the retirement age is over 55?
I would like to be on furlough for another couple of years (which would probably happen if the age were extended to 65) because I am having a successful career outside of United. I opted to bypass when I got my recall letter. If I were selfish, I'd be right on the bandwagon to extend the age to 65. But I'm not because it's unsafe. And the unfortunate thing is that most pilots who are unsafe do not realize it. And from the way that both you and Klako describe yourselves, I think that you both must be from Lake Wobegon, where everyone is above average. I'm betting that you both are stretching the truth.
While donating blood today, I thought about you. Can you name a single selfless act that you've done in the last ten years to better society where you gained no personal benefit? I don't think that you can ... it's just not in your nature.

 

[b757driver]

1. The rest of the civilized world will standardize 65 as the upper limit when the ICAO rule takes effect. Member states in ICAO can choose to disregard the 65 limit and impose something lower, but they will not be able to deny other member states from operating in the non-compliant member's airspace. So unless the US changes we will have virtually every other nation operating in our airspace with pilots in command up to age 65 as long as the other pilot is under 60. This is age discrimination in it purest form. In private industry, this activity has been struck down by the EEOC on 17 consecutive occasions.

2. The cost savings to the federal government are enormous. We have a brand new study (7/18/06) prepared by Mr. Darryl Jenkins that details nearly $1 billion per year net revenue positive to the Treasury from the combined effects of keeping pilots on tax roles and off federally subsidized programs like PBGC, Medicare, Social Security, etc. Mr. Jenkins is highly credentialed and recognized in DC in this arena. He authored the Handbook of Airline Economics and has consulted to the FAA, DOT, and NTSB.

3. Safety is no longer a deterrent. If safety were a concern based on age 60:
A. Why did ALPA negotiate and sign off on the Air Canada Jazz contract allowing pilots in command to work to 65? Take a look at their route structure sometime.
B. Why has ALPA been silent about the fact that co-pilots on foreign carriers have been operating in our airspace for years over the age of 60? Why isn't ALPA protesting right now to the FAA and DOT about foreign carriers with over-60 captains using our airspace beginning this fall?
C. Why did ALPA fight the age-60 rule as discriminatory for the first 20 years of its existence?
D. Why have virtually all the member states to ICAO adopted the rule? Are they not concerned about safety? Case in point: Japan went to 63 many years ago and studied their own pilots in the post-60 population. After 15,000 man years of data collected on that group with no perceivable compromise to safety, they adopted 65.
E. Why haven't the collective corporate managements of US based carriers disavowed and terminated all their code-sharing agreements with their foreign partners who employ pilots over the age of 60? Why would the IATA support such a change if it were unsafe?

4. There is strong support from unions. The Teamsters representing over 7000 pilots at 14 carriers have testified before the Senate Commerce Committee urging Congress pass both S.65 and HR.65. SWAPA representing all the Southwest pilots with strong endorsement all the way to Herb Kelleher have been fighting for this change for years. Jet Blue pilots and management have formed a coalition team to carry the same message to Congress. We have strong letters of endorsement from both the AARP and the Seniors Coalition.

5. Raising medical standards for all pilots or older pilots is not an issue. Federal Air Surgeon Dr. Frederick Tilton has said he sees no need to change medical certification standards based on the potential change to the upper age limit. Our standards are already compatible with most ICAO member states.

So there you have it.

Spot on!

China and France, eh? Well, nuff said........you want to lump the US in with that crowd, then go ahead. It may not be quite universal but it's certainly in the MAJORITY.
And....it's OK for foreign pilots over 60 to fly into US airspace and US airports (safety or no safety) but not for US citizens to fly US-registered aircraft in their OWN country. Now, how sensible is that? Wake up and smell the coffee!

 

[UndauntedFlyer]

Legal Opinion of Age-60/65

The BATA (Bilateral Air Transport Agreement) is signed by each individual nation, hence the actual document is a form where you fill-in-the-blank for the date, the country (Canada, Venezuela, etc.) and the acting authority at the end signs for and in behalf of the Government of the United States of America.
Since ICAO is a treaty, and thereby falls under Article VI of the Constitution, the legal argument as far as BATA is thus -
If the ICAO adopts pilot flying as age 60+, yet one of the member states (USA) does not allow its' member represented subjects (US registered airlines) to also allow age 60+ pilots to operate under the terms of BATA with each individual signatory to the agreement, then the United States government is in de facto violation of Treaty, and under rules of ICAO, has 30 days in which to notify each member state of the violation and begin resolution process.
The layman's argument is that if you are a member of ICAO, you can't pick and choose which provisions of the treaty you can abide, just as you can't pick and choose which parts of BATA you can abide. If you're a ICAO member, and particularly, if you've signed the BATA with the United States (which all ICAO members have who operate to the US), then either EVERYBODY flies past age 60, or NOBODY flies past age 60.
A successful argument can also be made that this also violates the NAFTA provisions because it allows unfair advantage to other nations in air commerce - their pilots (foreign pilots) can keep flying past age 60, whereas US pilots must, by federal mandate, retire and the US airlines (in theory) need to screen, select, hire, train, and certify their replacements...this allows an economic advantage to the other airlines from outside the USA who do not have to meet this standard.
The executive branch (DOT and FAA) have also stated in their policies the age 60 as being a safety issue. Due to the written statements (implied warranty) of safe operating practices within the United States, they are also in violation of their own rules if they allow US citizens to board any commercial aircraft within the United States (regardless of the carrier) with a pilot in excess of age 60 in command.
There are also other trade agreements in place besides NAFTA, along the lines of what the US State Dept. qualifies as MFN status (Most Favored Nation), of which virtually all of Europe and Asia (amazingly, even China!) currently hold.

 

[UndauntedFlyer]

[/color][/size][/font]

Can you name a single selfless act that you've done in the last ten years to better society where you gained no personal benefit? I don't think that you can ... it's just not in your nature.

I bought a round of MiaTai's in HNL just the day before yesterday. I gave blood once too.

Andy: It is really pointless to get into a discussion about yours or my life. The topic is the age 60 rule. It will be changed soon, this year or next year. Get used to it.

Also, you really need to calm down. Get a life; you will probably be a captain some day too. Just be patient. Your day will come if you can only wait your turn. Please relax and stop making such ridiculous arguments over an over as if you know more than the whole rest of the world about the safety of flying past age-60.

 

[Sluggo_63]

The BATA (Bilateral Air Transport Agreement) is signed by each individual nation, hence the actual document is a form where you fill-in-the-blank for the date, the country (Canada, Venezuela, etc.) and the acting authority at the end signs for and in behalf of the Government of the United States of America.
Since ICAO is a treaty, and thereby falls under Article VI of the Constitution, the legal argument as far as BATA is thus -
If the ICAO adopts pilot flying as age 60+, yet one of the member states (USA) does not allow its' member represented subjects (US registered airlines) to also allow age 60+ pilots to operate under the terms of BATA with each individual signatory to the agreement, then the United States government is in de facto violation of Treaty, and under rules of ICAO, has 30 days in which to notify each member state of the violation and begin resolution process.
The layman's argument is that if you are a member of ICAO, you can't pick and choose which provisions of the treaty you can abide, just as you can't pick and choose which parts of BATA you can abide. If you're a ICAO member, and particularly, if you've signed the BATA with the United States (which all ICAO members have who operate to the US), then either EVERYBODY flies past age 60, or NOBODY flies past age 60.
A successful argument can also be made that this also violates the NAFTA provisions because it allows unfair advantage to other nations in air commerce - their pilots (foreign pilots) can keep flying past age 60, whereas US pilots must, by federal mandate, retire and the US airlines (in theory) need to screen, select, hire, train, and certify their replacements...this allows an economic advantage to the other airlines from outside the USA who do not have to meet this standard.
The executive branch (DOT and FAA) have also stated in their policies the age 60 as being a safety issue. Due to the written statements (implied warranty) of safe operating practices within the United States, they are also in violation of their own rules if they allow US citizens to board any commercial aircraft within the United States (regardless of the carrier) with a pilot in excess of age 60 in command.
There are also other trade agreements in place besides NAFTA, along the lines of what the US State Dept. qualifies as MFN status (Most Favored Nation), of which virtually all of Europe and Asia (amazingly, even China!) currently hold.

But FAA instrument procedures are substantially different than ICAO instrument procedures. Are we in violation there since we don't use the ICAO standard in our country. There is an exemption to BATA. I don't think we are in violation of the treaty because we have a lower age.

Going to age 65 may allow foreign airlines a five year hiatus in hiring, then it will resume at the same pace as before. It's just all the junior pilots get the "privilege" of staying in their seat an additional 5 years.

This is a poor argument.

 

[Sluggo_63]

Get a life; you will probably be a captain some day too.

Yes, five years later than he thought, if your plan comes to fruition.

Just be patient. Your day will come if you can only wait your turn.

We have been patient. You have had your turn (in your case for 37 years). Now it's time to let others have the same opportunity you have had.

Please relax and stop making such ridiculous arguments over an over as if you know more than the whole rest of the world about the safety of flying past age-60.

It's not the whole rest of the world. Secondly, why does the ICAO rule (and the proposed FAA law) require that one person up front has to be under 60. I have not heard a good argument for that that doesn't mention safety.