AG flying

[KiloBase]

Just wondering where and what AG training would cost. And if there are any 141 approved schools out there. I live in Louisiana so the south east (E. TX, LA, MS, AL, NW FL) any insight would be good. Thanks

Mark

 

[EMBATP]

nlu

i believe the university of louisiana-monroe has a 141 ag degree with 2-place piston and turbine ag planes for training.

 

[bugchaser]

There are several schools that offer time in ag aircraft and basic ag training. What these schools provide is the chance to fly some ag airplanes. You will still be a long way from being ready to start working. If you really want to fly ag what you need to do is find an operator who will help you. By working on the ground and being around the operation, you will pick up all kinds of information that will help you. Be prepared to starve to death for about 2-3 years before you ever get into postition to make a decent living. Get as much tailwheel time as you can. It also really helps to know as much as possible about crops and the types of crop protection products that are applied to them. The flying is really a small part of the job. Having said all that, it is some of the most fun that you can have in an airplane. There is no other job like it. PM me if you have any other specific questions.

 

[greyhound]

I have seen Ag pilots while driving in central Ca.
Looks like fun, but I have been scared many times thinking there is no way he is going to clear that telephone pole, or that electrical wire, right then I see them pull out inches away.....

that's when I realized, it is not as easy as it seems!

 

[jergar999]

While we are on the topic, is there some sort of state or federal issued agricultural license that someone needs to spray, in addition to FAA licenses?

 

[avbug]

Yep. Each state issues their own, and for some of them, the test, and the recurrency, can be a BEAR.

Going over the powerlines is preferred, but going under them is always an option.

 

[jergar999]

The reason I was curious is I was asked by some relatives if I would like to spray for them this summer. They have 2 Grumman AgCats, both radial and a Weatherly, also radial. I told them I didn't even have a tailwheel endorsement, but one guy insists that if I get the ag license and TW endorsement and jump into the airplane the rest will make itself obvious. It seems like a lot of airplane to start with, and just trying to teach yourself seems crazy, especially given the nature of the business. Any input from former or current sprayers would be appreciated.

 

[avbug]

You're right. Jumping into that airplane would probably be a big mistake. Aside from the actual handling of the airplane, spraying crops isn't simpy a matter of flying low or avoiding obstacles.

Spraying requires a working knowledge of crops, chemicals, and regulation. It requires an understanding of the liabilities and implications, and some very precise operation.

Overspray and crop damage issues are critical. Put down a herbicide, and you may be responsible for every crop for 50 miles in any direction. Someone ten miles away complains that their trees died as a result of your application. Is that true? How do you prove it? It only takes one or two drift claims to shut you down and put you out of business, as well as lose everything you have.

Consider that statistically, the average spray pilot has a seven year lifespan. That means that a lot of pilots go a very long time and have a good spray career. It also means that a lot of new pilots don't survive their first season or two.

You should have an ag background, or a solid understanding of the needs of the farmer. You should understand the crop. You may be called on to visit the crop and make recommendations on chemical, treatment, etc. You need to have an understanding of entimology, including all the pests and predators you're dealing with, their lifecycles, and how they affect the crop, as well as benificial insects, environmental impacts, etc.

Bear in mind that when you climb into that Agtruck or Weatherly, there's nobody to check you out in the airplane. Coupled with no conventional gear experience, you're asking for a boat load of trouble. Couple that with winds, wires, obstacles, and inflight emerencies, and you're jumping without a parachute. You may do okay if everything goes according to plan...but then what happens when something goes wrong? It will.

When you enter a field over obstacles, you must be very precise in turning on and shutting off your chemical. Your rows must be precise. You cannot have gaps. You must be within inches vertically, and horizontally on every single row. Leaving skips in a field will sink your reputation as fast as anything, and in the ag aviation business, you're still building your reputation 15 years after you arrive in a given area...you're still considered the "new guy." Skip up a farmers field and leave green streaks in his spring wheat...and you've cost him an entire crop, or lowered his crop value to where it's not competitive.

When you enter the field, you can't get the spray to the edges of the field. That requires cleanup passes. That means you're going to be flying the borders of the field, in very close proximity to powerlines. How comfortable do you feel attempting to make these passes, with your wingtip a few feet from powerlines, while flying only a very short distance above the crop, while looking for obstacles, dealing with winds, and ensuring that you have a precise path over the ground?

You'll most likely be using satallite navigation now, a satloc or similiar system. with an external light bar working somewhat like a CDI, you're going to be flying it like a localizer. Can you imagine flying the localizer at six inches above the ground at cruise speed? Wanna try at a thousand hours in an unfamiliar airplane loaded to gross in winds and weather and in a hot cockpit while choking on pollen and chemical vapors? Something to think about.

Are you prepared to work on the airplanes you fly? You need to know your systems with intimacy. Not just well, but with intimacy. You need to be able to work on them. Be prepared to become an aircraft mechanic. Most ag pilots are.

When you're spraying in the morning, you'll be flying back through the spray. Your windscreen gets coated very quickly. You won't be able to see out the front of the airplane, especially if spraying atrazine or chemicals like 2,4-D (which is on the rapid decline in most places). The windscreen just turns white.

You end up flying with one hand, and leaning forward through a little side window to wipe a little 6"X6" spot to see out of...and that's how you fly the remainder of the flight, while maintaining your row spacing, height, and clearance from powerlines, etc.

You get to mix chemical. If you aren't familiar with organophosphates such as Parathion 8E or Dimethoate, they're bad news. A single drop on your tongue out of the barrel can kill you. Remember the movie, The Rock? The nasty green stuff in the little spheres that killed everybody horribly? Same stuff. Only you don't get chemical protection gear, and when it's beening dispensed in the field, you're the guy out there flying around it, through it. Something else to think about.

Aircraft nozzles get plugged up. You need to be able to fly the airplane as well as look down and behind you frequently to watch your spray pattern and ensure that your nozzles are performing properly. You need to be able to work on them, and you'll be adjusting, changing diaphrams, the whole nine yards, during the spray day.

This just scratches the surface, but it gives you perhaps an idea that it is NOT simply a matter of just getting in the airplane and going flying. Ag work is not an entry level job for the most part. Back in times when it was conducted that way, to some degree, the fatality rate was a whole lot higher, too.

If you have highly experienced ag pilots who are willing to take you on board and break you into the business, then that's one thing. If a family member is going to toss you in the cat and tell you to go spray a field, that's another matter completely and I'd back away from that as fast as you can run.

At a minimum to start, someone needs to get you in a cub or other such airplane and spend 20 hours of so working you in the field, teaching you about turns, etc. You'll learn that what the popular masses call the "downwind turn" and call a myth, is pretty darn real, and it can kill you. Are you comfortable doing steep turns at 75' in an airplane loaded to gross, and pulling them tight enough to feel the airplane buffet? It's part of the game, and the ag turn kills people. There is no room to recover if you make a mistake, and when you're working, these aren't just the occasional turn. You'll be doing it every 30-60 seconds of the day. Shaving a few seconds off the turn is a big deal...it's the difference between profit and bankrupcy.

There are no benifits, and insurance is hard to come by. The last few years have been tough on ag pilots and the ag aviation industry. Lots of businesses up for sale, and these by experienced hands. Something else to think about.

Every flown an airplane that's heavy enough you can't climb over powerlines after takeoff? You will. Ever flown under powerlines? You will. Ever had a wire strike, or faced the very real possibility of being involved in a serious accident? You probably will. Given a little time.

Getting into the business is certainly doable, and if it's what you want to do, then go for it. Heaven knows that the industry can always use new blood. But be sure it's done responsibly by those who are going to break you in easily, and carefully. Just being handed the airplane and told to go to, will probably get you killed.

 

[Iceman21]

I haven't really given any serious consideration to ag flying, I have thought about it in passing, but I must say that was the best description of ag flying that I have ever come across.

Thanks for laying it out so well Avbug

 

[CFICANFLY]

but I must say that was the best description of ag flying that I have ever come across.

Yeah, Avbug does have a way with the words, & I certainly mean that in a good, respectful way! He could probably be descriptive enough to make the greeter job at Wal-Mart sound adventurous, & leave the reader yearning for the privilege of wearing the blue vest!

His tales of ag flying, firefighting, etc. are most often written to apprise some one of the harsh realities of the job that they may hold interest in. However, for the more adventurous sorts, it merely serves as a whetting of the appetite for that type of flying! Keep up the posts, Avbug! Hey, if you're not going to write a book, can I compile all of your posts & publish them myself? Just kidding...

'canfly

 

[KickSave]

Wow, Avbug that is a great post. For someone relatively new to aviation, that description of what AG flying is all about was eye opening. It reminded me of the time last summer, when I was driving home from the BAy area to San Diego on Interstate 5 through the Inland Empire area. It was late at night, around midnight. Driving though a sparsely populated area with limited car traffic, I noticed something lighted unusually moving back and forth up ahead and off the the left of the freeway. At first I thought it was some late night Off Roaders or ATVs having some fun. When I got closer, I realized it was an Ag sprayer, going back and forth across the field, and climbing up sharply at the end of each run. As I came abeam the field, I notced the power wires at the near end that the plane was climbing up over then turning steeply and shooting right back down to make the next pass. The plane had very good lighting, two high power landing lights it looked like. He must have made 4 passes total before I drove away, slowly, craning my neck to keep an eye on this scene.

But still, I couldn't believe this sight. Midnight, spraying the crops, dodging the powerlines. I just thought this is either the most skilled pilot on the planet, or he's insane and won't live to see morning.

 

[avbug]

Night spraying is preferred, and necessary in some areas. The power lines are sometimes more visible at night, and show up better when reflecting dew off the lines. Reduced temperatures mean less volatility problems with the chemical, and also that the chemical will remain with the crop in concentrate longer, and be more effective.

It's also an aircraft performance issue. Less-hot and heavy is better than hot and heavy.

Winds are typically less at night, drift issues are typically less at night. Less evaporation occurs. Rains are typically less likely to occur at night than during the convective activity of the day (though not always, of course). Often one has to wait some time to spray a field, waiting for just the right conditions considering susceptable crops in the area. If that time comes at night and you are equipped for night ops, so be it.

 

[bobbysamd]

Ag spraying

Excellent posts from Avbug. Some of the best and most informative reading I've seen here in months. I knew that ag pilots are responsible for loading the chemicals on the aircraft, but I never knew that farmers actually consult with ag pilots as part of ordering spraying.

I believe there are FAA-certified flight schools dedicated to ag pilot training. Maybe that's the way to go before actually doing the flying.

 

[bugchaser]

Wow Avbug, I didn't realize that I worked so hard! Seriously, that was a pretty good description of the workload. I do take one exception, the chemicals that we use these days are safe if used properly. I don't want people to get the wrong impression. While like most things, they can be dangerous if used improperly, in everyday use these materials are very safe and beneficial to all of us. As for the 7 year lifespan, I hope that that is not really true. Several of my family members and many of my closest friends fly ag and we all have been fortunate to have avoided any serious accidents. I really don't consider it all that dangerous, you just cannot afford to make mistakes. Many of the bad things that you mentioned start to go away as your career progresses. I fly an almost new turbine powered airplane that is a joy to fly. It has an air conditioner that will make snow and is tightly sealed to keep out the smells, etc. I rarely load my own airplane or work on it. Basically, I show up early in the morning, get my copies of the work orders and maps and go to work. When I get done, I go home. You are correct that there is much more to ag flying than flying. The flying has to be done without thinking about it. You are spraying, not flying. The spray application is the primary job. Flying is secondary. Also the knowledge of crops and chemicals is crucial. I am a Certified Crop Advisor and have worked in the ag chem industry for years. Having said all that, it is still the best job in the world. There is no other type of flying like it. Most of the time it gets pretty boring, but every once in a while I can't quite smiling.