AF vs. the grunts

[CCDiscoB]

It's hard, and unfair to compare the air war in Afghanistan, to any other war. Expecting to have CAS on call, when the average sortie durations to and from Afghanistan over 10 hours, is unrealistic. I understand that the A-10s do have a FOB in country now.

If the AF wasn't committed to CAS there wouldn’t be any FACs in the Army Battalions.

Back when the AF was going to get rid of the A-10s the Army got wind and stated that they were going to take over the mission. The AF realized that meant the Army would be flying fixed wing combat aircraft, and suddenly the A-10s were no longer on the hit list.

 

[chawbein]

CCDiscoB -

What does your username mean?? I've been trying to figure it out and can't come up with anything.

 

[CCDiscoB]

It means when you come looking for me, you won't find me.

Actually it's a old nick name. Not current. CC is short for Commander.

 

[DaveGriffin]

It's hard, and unfair to compare the air war in Afghanistan, to any other war. Expecting to have CAS on call, when the average sortie durations to and from Afghanistan over 10 hours, is unrealistic. I understand that the A-10s do have a FOB in country now.

If the AF wasn't committed to CAS there wouldn’t be any FACs in the Army Battalions.

Back when the AF was going to get rid of the A-10s the Army got wind and stated that they were going to take over the mission. The AF realized that meant the Army would be flying fixed wing combat aircraft, and suddenly the A-10s were no longer on the hit list.

CCDiscoB;

It is absolutely fair to ask that air assets support the ground assets, no matter what war we find ourselves engaged in.

Here is my assessment of the facts for your review and comment.

1. The use of SpecOps is increasing at an exponential rate. It dominated our strategy in Afghanistan and will in Iraq. Their use was only beginning in the Gulf War.

2. SpecOps is no more revolutionary than airborne was to WWII and AirCav was to Vietnam.

3. Very simply, SpecOps is small unit, highly mobile strategy that attacks specific enemy targets.

4. The BIG problem is that small units travel light and cannot hump much firepower. When they find themselves in an extended firefight, even with superior fire discipline and marksmanship, if they do not defeat the enemy or break contact quickly, they are soon out of ammo. If they find themselves pitted against a superior force it is only their endurance and ability to escape detection that can save their a$$es, if they are lucky. US air superiority is crucial to their survival and success.

5. If we are going to be using SpecOps in the field then let’s support them. Robert’s Ridge is a great example.

6.The Carrier Strike Forces (fixed wing and rotary), Army helo pilots and SOW AF have demonstrated their willingness to support the grunts in the field.

7. It is the non-SOW AF, in my humble opinion, that doesn’t give a rat’s a$$ about fighting men in other Branches.

8. The AF bomber jocks do not consider the grunts on the ground a part of the team and are not very concerned if they get waxed.

9. The lightly armed SpecOps units can find themselves in deep sh*t, due to bad intelligence (don’t get me going on this topic) and will require the support of any available air assets to get home in one piece.

10. Non-SOW AF air assets are very difficult to acquire, even though they may be in the immediate AO.

11. All I’m looking for is a good reason to buy an F-15 pilot a beer. So far there hasn’t been one.

 

[Stump]

Dave,

Let me assure you that there is a core group of about 350 of us Hog Drivers that have been training for CAS (and almost exclusively CAS) since mid-78. We've been pushing on this noodle for almost 25 years now and some folks in very high places are finally starting to listen. That is why there are Hogs in country right now. The rest of the bomb-dropping Air Force has had a serious reality check over the past 13 months and are slowly coming around. It is a very difficult education process. Cheers.

Stump
"CAS is a mindset more than a mission"

 

[DaveGriffin]

Stump;

My hat has always been off to you Hog drivers. You guys are GREAT.

As I stated, my b*tch is with the bomb droppers who are scared sh*ttless of SAM’s and refuse to get lower than 15,000 AGL. They have become so dependent on their precision guided munitions that they can no longer hit a moving target using their flight skills. They regard themselves simply as a standoff weapons delivery system. They have adopted a classic “low-risk” mentality with strict adherence to mission profile while the grunts and the Hogs below live in a high-risk environment in which changes happen every 90 seconds.

Thanks for everything.

Best regards,

 

[Zulu]

Dave,
I spent my career defending the bomb droppers, so I guess I'll step up one more time and tell you you're way off target with your complaints. I've never met a fighter pilot who's unwilling to do whatever it takes to accomplish the mission -- particularly when there are American lives on the line. The decisions as to minimum altitudes, acceptable risk levels, and prevailing munitions types are NOT determined by the line pilots in the squadrons -- they come down from the joint force commander and air component commander. I'll bet money that when the war in Afghanistan kicked off Gen. Franks said something to the effect of "Just make sure that we don't lose any jets to some guy with a shoulder fired missile" which was then interpreted and imposed on the line bubbas as no low alititude flying.
So, complain all you want, but make sure you're going after the right target -- it's the joint brass, not the bomb droppers, that you need to be b!tchin about.

Z

 

[CCDiscoB]

Dave,

I doubt I'll earn that beer, but I'll continue to defend the AF. I want to clarify the facts you laid out.
6.The Carrier Strike Forces (fixed wing and rotary), Army helo pilots and SOW AF have demonstrated their willingness to support the grunts in the field. I disagree with your comparison of Naval CAS vs. AF CAS. How deep into enemy territory do you think a Naval CAS division will venture when their "base" is 200 NM at sea, a base at which they must make their slot time? I’ve seen it in Iraq. The Navy primarily works the Basra area. Sure they will support the Marines at a beachhead, but that's about it. I agree, the Army is well supported by Army air, but you won't see them until the AF has at least established Air Superiority. Which was the case in Desert Storm and Afghanistan.

8. The AF bomber jocks do not consider the grunts on the ground a part of the team and are not very concerned if they get waxed. You don't really believe this do you? What Zulu wrote is 100% correct, we are not allowed to fly at altitudes that would allow a bomber to assist a unit on the ground. Besides, the bomber crews are not trained for that mission. They are trained to target strategic areas, not tactical targets. So we bring in a tactical bomber and he too is forced to standoff in range and altitude. The brass will not allow the loss of an aircraft in a low-risk war. I know what you’re going to say, when a ground unit is under attack, it is now a high-risk war, and I agree.

9. The lightly armed SpecOps units can find themselves in deep sh*t, due to bad intelligence (don’t get me going on this topic) and will require the support of any available air assets to get home in one piece.
They why did the JCS not allow an AC-130 Gunship into Mogadishu, which would have certainly saved the day? I'm just saying you would have had no problem finding AF volunteers to fly the mission. They were not allowed. I wanted to fly below 20K in Desert Storm, but I wasn't allowed to. I know for a fact that a B-52 crew would love to come in at 500' like they've been trained to help a ground unit, but they are simply not allowed to. And don’t ask us to break the rules either. You want rules broken, call some other cowboy service.

 

[Jafar]

Interesting thread. I'm surprised no Marines have piped up about this. For us, there really is no debate. Marine Air's mission is CAS. If it says MARINES on it, flys, and can kill people, its job is CAS. Marine Air is inextricably linked to the grunts. I remember rolling across the lunar like surface of 29 Palms watching F/A-18's drop 84's on our objective. No to mention AH-1's lighting everything in sight up. But the main effort is the infantry, plain and simple. We knew that those Marines in the air were there strictly to make our life easier. That experience will undoubtable help me when I am in the wing. A time that can't come to soon .

 

[jarhead_av8r]

I disagree with your comparison of Naval CAS vs. AF CAS. How deep into enemy territory do you think a Naval CAS division will venture when their "base" is 200 NM at sea, a base at which they must make their slot time? I’ve seen it in Iraq. The Navy primarily works the Basra area. Sure they will support the Marines at a beachhead, but that's about it. I agree, the Army is well supported by Army air, but you won't see them until the AF has at least established Air Superiority. Which was the case in Desert Storm and Afghanistan

a t-45 or t-38 could have established air superiority over Afghanistan. i guess you could also ask how deep can the AF go when their bases are 200 nm away? trips from the other side of the Earth don't cut it when the grunts need on-call CAS.

Navy/Marine Corps jets were flying all over Afghanistan. the A-10's finally got into Afghanistan after the AF brass was sure of a secure runway, and after Marine Corps Harriers were already in-country doing CAS. sure the Harrier isn't anywhere near the CAS platform as the A-10, but the A-10 was needed early on in the war, not the latter stages. by the way, i think i'd give up my Hornet gig to fly the A-10 ...

anyways this arguement can go on forever but in the end, it's the upper level brass who makes those decisions, not the pilots and to fault the pilots for not breaking rules is wrong. ODS has flawed our warfighting mentality because now we think we can win wars by precision guided munitions & low causulties.

semper fidelis

 

[B-J-J Fighter]

I havent had time to read this attire thread so my question might have already been answered but, does the Corp still fly the A-10. Thats one of my favorite mil a/c of all time.

 

[ExAF]

I havent had time to read this attire thread so my question might have already been answered but, does the Corp still fly the A-10. Thats one of my favorite mil a/c of all time.

The Corp has never flown the A-10. Only the AF. They did fly the OV-10, but that is a completely different animal.

 

[PilotoHalcon]

I as a whole agree with you, and to some extent I agree with this...
.... And don’t ask us to break the rules either. You want rules broken, call some other cowboy service...
But as a Ex TF160 H60 pilot from 86-89 I will say this; I would not ask you to deviate from what your morals or common sense tell you. Nor should I have to ask you. I think as a whole we are starting to rule ourselves out of winning. It all depends your perspective and on how well you are able to sleep at night I suppose. But of course this is only my opinion.
j