AF vs. the grunts

[DaveGriffin]

Here is an interesting article regarding the intrinsic differences between the “I drop bombs mentality” of the AF and the immediate needs of the grunts on the ground that depend on the AF for support in difficult situations. The bomb dropping pilots and their senior staffs simply don’t have the same sense of concern, urgency and understanding of ground support that the outstanding Spectre Gunship and A-10 drivers have. It’s that “country club” attitude showing through again; “Let's drop these bombs and get back to PSAB for happy hour”.

http://www.strategypage.com/fyeo/howtomakewar/default.asp?target=HTAIRW.HTM

September 27, 2002; The experience in Afghanistan has revealed some dangerous differences in how the army and the air force wants to use smart bombs. The air force was very pleased with the way smart bombs worked in Afghanistan. But the army was less pleased. While the air force objective was to get bombs on target within 11 minutes, this only happened in situations where the air force ground observers were in touch with a bomber directly above. When the bombers were not around, it could take from 26 minutes to several hours to hit a target. And if an air force ground controller was not available, you would never get the support. Moreover, the air force prefers to have the army give it 36 hours notice for bombing operations, as the air force normally operates on a 36 hour cycle (which is good for them, but not for ground troops who have encountered enemy resistance no one could plan for.) The air force has also been increasingly reluctant to bring their fighter-bombers down below 10,000 feet, which is where the army needs them when the enemy is a moving target. The army has long since bought hundreds of attack helicopters to solve this problem, but there are times when the situation on the ground is so hairy that the helicopters aren't sufficient, and it's a matter of life and death to get high flying fighter bombers to come on down and join in. The air force does have A-10 ground attack aircraft, which work quite well. But the air force has been trying to get rid of the A-10s for over a decade and won't spend the money to build a replacement aircraft.

The Afghans quickly figured out how to make the smart bombs and night vision gear less effective. Al Qaeda and Taliban fighters operated at night more often, even though American ground troops and aircraft had night vision gear. What the Afghans feared most at night were Predator drones, AC-130 gunships (which they called "Spitting Witches") and AH-64 helicopter gunships. Moving around at night in small groups, they knew a smart bomb would not get them. The Afghans listened for Predators, AC-130s or AH-64s, and when they hear one nearby, they would lie on the ground and cover themselves with a blanket (which would degrade the heat sensing night vision equipment enough that they would usually "disappear). Several times, commanders watching Predator battlefield videos actually saw this disappearing act take place.

The army is intent on getting their artillery observers trained to call in air force strikes. Many air force generals agree, but as an institution, the air force resists giving up that kind of power. But the army is adamant, pointing out that the air force would never provide as many ground controllers as the army needed, and in a confused ground battle, you need plenty of ground controllers. The army will often have several artillery controllers per platoon, and would like more.

The air force likes to concentrate on how many sorties they flew and bombs they dropped. But to the guys on the ground, that means nothing. What counts is how many bombs hit a target the ground troops needed destroyed. All of this will turn into another Pentagon turf battle, but the outcome will be a matter of life and death for ground troops.

 

[chawbein]

That's unfortunate...

 

[ExAF]

Here is an interesting article regarding the intrinsic differences between the “I drop bombs mentality” of the AF and the immediate needs of the grunts on the ground that depend on the AF for support in difficult situations. The bomb dropping pilots and their senior staffs simply don’t have the same sense of concern, urgency and understanding of ground support that the outstanding Spectre Gunship and A-10 drivers have. It’s that “country club” attitude showing through again; “Let's drop these bombs and get back to PSAB for happy hour”.

Dave you ignorant slut! Speaking as a former airborne and jump FAC as well as a "bomb dropper," nothing could be further from the truth. You need to find a better source than www.strategypage.com. And while I'm at it, jumping out of the back of a Combat Talon does not a rating make.

 

[DaveGriffin]

Re: Re: AF vs. the grunts

Dave you ignorant slut! Speaking as a former airborne and jump FAC as well as a "bomb dropper," nothing could be further from the truth. You need to find a better source than www.strategypage.com. And while I'm at it, jumping out of the back of a Combat Talon does not a rating make.

ExAF;

The SOW FAC's assigned to my platoon were always absof*ckinglutley great. They just couldn't run or swim. No complaint at all with them. But even they can't get the prima donna bomb droppers s to get their hands dirty and respond quickly enough to do any real good for the poor saps on the ground who only have a few mags of assault rifle rounds. A well placed and timely 500 pounder really helps out when the sh*t hits the fan.

I posted the quote and link because it is a somewhat accurate representation of my personal experiences. I'll buy Spectre, A-10, F-14, F-18 and the helo drivers beers from now until closing time. They were always ready willing and able to whatever was necessary immediatly to help out. It was the AF "I drop bombs from way up on my schedule" crowd who always were more concerned with getting back in time for karaoke night at the club than they were about helping the guys down in the dirt.

 

[JimNtexas]

Don't worry ground pounders.

For the price of only 30 or 40 A-10s each, the Air Force is getting the F/A-22 . It can carry two 2000 pound bombs, or someday maybe six mighty 250 pound bombs!!!!!

Your worries are over!!!


Jim (ex USAF ALO)

 

[Snakum]

As a former grunt, I would much rather have an A-10 or AH-64 on station than arty inbound ... more punch. But I'm not sure I'd want an AF FAC calling in F-15s with 250 or 500 pounders unless I'd worked with him, was very confident in him, and he was right there on the ground beside me. Those 500s can make a real mess!

I'd rather be able to pop smoke and guide the low-and-(relatively)slow guys in myself, I feel I have more control.

Sgt. Minh Thong, US Army (Ret.)

 

[46Driver]

I think the point Dave is getting at is that the Air Force prefers to fly pre-planned interdiction missions while the grunts want orbiting aircraft on call. If I am not mistaken, there was a big fight about this in the Vietnam War. The Air Force wanted all air under its control for the preplanned sorties and the Corps, being infantry thinking, refused and instead used aircraft either orbiting or on strip alert for CAS. I have no doubt that the Air Force is good at CAS but it is a secondary mission after air superiority, nuclear deterence, etc; it is the primary focus for Marine (and Army) Air.

 

[zulua320]

Having been (way too) close to both sides of the CAS discussion for a couple of years, I'm afraid that CAS is one of those military/political furballs that's never going to get straightened out. The sad truth is that NEITHER the Army's nor the AF's senior leadership really wants CAS -- to the AF, it's the whole independence thing that "we're not the Army Air Corps anymore," while with the Army's brass, calling in A-10s is tantamount to saying "we can't do it on our own, please save us, Air Force." I've seen the attitude from Sr. officers on both sides, and it's sad, because well executed CAS is un-CENSORED-believable.

Z

 

[DaveGriffin]

Don't worry ground pounders.

For the price of only 30 or 40 A-10s each, the Air Force is getting the F/A-22 . It can carry two 2000 pound bombs, or someday maybe six mighty 250 pound bombs!!!!!

Your worries are over!!!

Jim (ex USAF ALO)

So right Jim;

Rename the F-22 the F/A-22 and you will still have an unarmored, compromised-flight-performance-for-low-radar signature, medium-high altitude, air-to-air combat aircraft a p*ss-poor Close Air Support ground attack weapon with its two 1,000 lbs JDAM’s.

It sure is sexy though. But try talking one into descending under 5,000 ft to take out a moving target within a five minute window to help out some grunts about to be over run by a superior force of bad guys. The pilots have become so dependent on precision guided weapons they have lost the skill and ability to hit anything but a stationary target from a stand-off position. They d*mn sure don’t want to risk getting any closer to the dirt than 15,000 ft agl.

We're not going to be fighting guys in caves forever.

 

[CCDiscoB]

PSAB doesn't have a happy hour. It's the perfect "combat zone" location if you're a Commander, no booze to ruin your promotion opportunities.

 

[DaveGriffin]

Sure thing. And there is no booze on CVN's either.

 

[CCDiscoB]

No really, there is absolutely no booze. No one has the balls to even attempt to sneak any in either. Everyone who is caught is severely punished. The AF is hard over on that issue.

The Navy and Marines get away with more. I don’t know how they do it. I remember back in Desert Storm, we shared the barracks with the Marines. We lived upstairs and they were downstairs. We were routinely inspected and warned about booze, meanwhile the Marines had a fully stocked bar, blatantly out in the open.

 

[DaveGriffin]

Thanks for your info. I stand corrected and retract my PSAB happy hour comment.

In the Navy we have a saying "You rate what you get away with."

Although in my opinion there should be a happy hour at PSAB no matter what the rules say. I guess there were a few State Department weenies who might show up unannounced. They are the type that would go ballistic if they see any violation of Saudi law.

 

[Skyrunner]

Dave G

Hey Dave,

I think I may be confusing you with someone else. I'm sorry if I am. Did you go to school in Santa Barbara in 1986? If so, PM me. Take care.

SR

 

[DaveGriffin]

Sorry Skyrunner, it wasn't me.
Regards

 

[CCDiscoB]

It's hard, and unfair to compare the air war in Afghanistan, to any other war. Expecting to have CAS on call, when the average sortie durations to and from Afghanistan over 10 hours, is unrealistic. I understand that the A-10s do have a FOB in country now.

If the AF wasn't committed to CAS there wouldn’t be any FACs in the Army Battalions.

Back when the AF was going to get rid of the A-10s the Army got wind and stated that they were going to take over the mission. The AF realized that meant the Army would be flying fixed wing combat aircraft, and suddenly the A-10s were no longer on the hit list.

 

[chawbein]

CCDiscoB -

What does your username mean?? I've been trying to figure it out and can't come up with anything.

 

[CCDiscoB]

It means when you come looking for me, you won't find me.

Actually it's a old nick name. Not current. CC is short for Commander.

 

[DaveGriffin]

It's hard, and unfair to compare the air war in Afghanistan, to any other war. Expecting to have CAS on call, when the average sortie durations to and from Afghanistan over 10 hours, is unrealistic. I understand that the A-10s do have a FOB in country now.

If the AF wasn't committed to CAS there wouldn’t be any FACs in the Army Battalions.

Back when the AF was going to get rid of the A-10s the Army got wind and stated that they were going to take over the mission. The AF realized that meant the Army would be flying fixed wing combat aircraft, and suddenly the A-10s were no longer on the hit list.

CCDiscoB;

It is absolutely fair to ask that air assets support the ground assets, no matter what war we find ourselves engaged in.

Here is my assessment of the facts for your review and comment.

1. The use of SpecOps is increasing at an exponential rate. It dominated our strategy in Afghanistan and will in Iraq. Their use was only beginning in the Gulf War.

2. SpecOps is no more revolutionary than airborne was to WWII and AirCav was to Vietnam.

3. Very simply, SpecOps is small unit, highly mobile strategy that attacks specific enemy targets.

4. The BIG problem is that small units travel light and cannot hump much firepower. When they find themselves in an extended firefight, even with superior fire discipline and marksmanship, if they do not defeat the enemy or break contact quickly, they are soon out of ammo. If they find themselves pitted against a superior force it is only their endurance and ability to escape detection that can save their a$$es, if they are lucky. US air superiority is crucial to their survival and success.

5. If we are going to be using SpecOps in the field then let’s support them. Robert’s Ridge is a great example.

6.The Carrier Strike Forces (fixed wing and rotary), Army helo pilots and SOW AF have demonstrated their willingness to support the grunts in the field.

7. It is the non-SOW AF, in my humble opinion, that doesn’t give a rat’s a$$ about fighting men in other Branches.

8. The AF bomber jocks do not consider the grunts on the ground a part of the team and are not very concerned if they get waxed.

9. The lightly armed SpecOps units can find themselves in deep sh*t, due to bad intelligence (don’t get me going on this topic) and will require the support of any available air assets to get home in one piece.

10. Non-SOW AF air assets are very difficult to acquire, even though they may be in the immediate AO.

11. All I’m looking for is a good reason to buy an F-15 pilot a beer. So far there hasn’t been one.

 

[Stump]

Dave,

Let me assure you that there is a core group of about 350 of us Hog Drivers that have been training for CAS (and almost exclusively CAS) since mid-78. We've been pushing on this noodle for almost 25 years now and some folks in very high places are finally starting to listen. That is why there are Hogs in country right now. The rest of the bomb-dropping Air Force has had a serious reality check over the past 13 months and are slowly coming around. It is a very difficult education process. Cheers.

Stump
"CAS is a mindset more than a mission"

 

[DaveGriffin]

Stump;

My hat has always been off to you Hog drivers. You guys are GREAT.

As I stated, my b*tch is with the bomb droppers who are scared sh*ttless of SAM’s and refuse to get lower than 15,000 AGL. They have become so dependent on their precision guided munitions that they can no longer hit a moving target using their flight skills. They regard themselves simply as a standoff weapons delivery system. They have adopted a classic “low-risk” mentality with strict adherence to mission profile while the grunts and the Hogs below live in a high-risk environment in which changes happen every 90 seconds.

Thanks for everything.

Best regards,

 

[Zulu]

Dave,
I spent my career defending the bomb droppers, so I guess I'll step up one more time and tell you you're way off target with your complaints. I've never met a fighter pilot who's unwilling to do whatever it takes to accomplish the mission -- particularly when there are American lives on the line. The decisions as to minimum altitudes, acceptable risk levels, and prevailing munitions types are NOT determined by the line pilots in the squadrons -- they come down from the joint force commander and air component commander. I'll bet money that when the war in Afghanistan kicked off Gen. Franks said something to the effect of "Just make sure that we don't lose any jets to some guy with a shoulder fired missile" which was then interpreted and imposed on the line bubbas as no low alititude flying.
So, complain all you want, but make sure you're going after the right target -- it's the joint brass, not the bomb droppers, that you need to be b!tchin about.

Z

 

[CCDiscoB]

Dave,

I doubt I'll earn that beer, but I'll continue to defend the AF. I want to clarify the facts you laid out.
6.The Carrier Strike Forces (fixed wing and rotary), Army helo pilots and SOW AF have demonstrated their willingness to support the grunts in the field. I disagree with your comparison of Naval CAS vs. AF CAS. How deep into enemy territory do you think a Naval CAS division will venture when their "base" is 200 NM at sea, a base at which they must make their slot time? I’ve seen it in Iraq. The Navy primarily works the Basra area. Sure they will support the Marines at a beachhead, but that's about it. I agree, the Army is well supported by Army air, but you won't see them until the AF has at least established Air Superiority. Which was the case in Desert Storm and Afghanistan.

8. The AF bomber jocks do not consider the grunts on the ground a part of the team and are not very concerned if they get waxed. You don't really believe this do you? What Zulu wrote is 100% correct, we are not allowed to fly at altitudes that would allow a bomber to assist a unit on the ground. Besides, the bomber crews are not trained for that mission. They are trained to target strategic areas, not tactical targets. So we bring in a tactical bomber and he too is forced to standoff in range and altitude. The brass will not allow the loss of an aircraft in a low-risk war. I know what you’re going to say, when a ground unit is under attack, it is now a high-risk war, and I agree.

9. The lightly armed SpecOps units can find themselves in deep sh*t, due to bad intelligence (don’t get me going on this topic) and will require the support of any available air assets to get home in one piece.
They why did the JCS not allow an AC-130 Gunship into Mogadishu, which would have certainly saved the day? I'm just saying you would have had no problem finding AF volunteers to fly the mission. They were not allowed. I wanted to fly below 20K in Desert Storm, but I wasn't allowed to. I know for a fact that a B-52 crew would love to come in at 500' like they've been trained to help a ground unit, but they are simply not allowed to. And don’t ask us to break the rules either. You want rules broken, call some other cowboy service.

 

[Jafar]

Interesting thread. I'm surprised no Marines have piped up about this. For us, there really is no debate. Marine Air's mission is CAS. If it says MARINES on it, flys, and can kill people, its job is CAS. Marine Air is inextricably linked to the grunts. I remember rolling across the lunar like surface of 29 Palms watching F/A-18's drop 84's on our objective. No to mention AH-1's lighting everything in sight up. But the main effort is the infantry, plain and simple. We knew that those Marines in the air were there strictly to make our life easier. That experience will undoubtable help me when I am in the wing. A time that can't come to soon .

 

[jarhead_av8r]

I disagree with your comparison of Naval CAS vs. AF CAS. How deep into enemy territory do you think a Naval CAS division will venture when their "base" is 200 NM at sea, a base at which they must make their slot time? I’ve seen it in Iraq. The Navy primarily works the Basra area. Sure they will support the Marines at a beachhead, but that's about it. I agree, the Army is well supported by Army air, but you won't see them until the AF has at least established Air Superiority. Which was the case in Desert Storm and Afghanistan

a t-45 or t-38 could have established air superiority over Afghanistan. i guess you could also ask how deep can the AF go when their bases are 200 nm away? trips from the other side of the Earth don't cut it when the grunts need on-call CAS.

Navy/Marine Corps jets were flying all over Afghanistan. the A-10's finally got into Afghanistan after the AF brass was sure of a secure runway, and after Marine Corps Harriers were already in-country doing CAS. sure the Harrier isn't anywhere near the CAS platform as the A-10, but the A-10 was needed early on in the war, not the latter stages. by the way, i think i'd give up my Hornet gig to fly the A-10 ...

anyways this arguement can go on forever but in the end, it's the upper level brass who makes those decisions, not the pilots and to fault the pilots for not breaking rules is wrong. ODS has flawed our warfighting mentality because now we think we can win wars by precision guided munitions & low causulties.

semper fidelis

 

[B-J-J Fighter]

I havent had time to read this attire thread so my question might have already been answered but, does the Corp still fly the A-10. Thats one of my favorite mil a/c of all time.

 

[ExAF]

I havent had time to read this attire thread so my question might have already been answered but, does the Corp still fly the A-10. Thats one of my favorite mil a/c of all time.

The Corp has never flown the A-10. Only the AF. They did fly the OV-10, but that is a completely different animal.

 

[PilotoHalcon]

I as a whole agree with you, and to some extent I agree with this...
.... And don’t ask us to break the rules either. You want rules broken, call some other cowboy service...
But as a Ex TF160 H60 pilot from 86-89 I will say this; I would not ask you to deviate from what your morals or common sense tell you. Nor should I have to ask you. I think as a whole we are starting to rule ourselves out of winning. It all depends your perspective and on how well you are able to sleep at night I suppose. But of course this is only my opinion.
j