Aerial Firefighting

[propsarebest]

H&P is having a FIRESALE!!!

EVERYTHING is for sale!!

Check out http://www.courtesyaircraft.com


The USAF DID have a couple of failures on the A model C-130, thats why they were rid of and why the B model came out.

 

[DC-4]

Ok First off I was not bashing H&P. Second off to say I am uninformed is well I will not say that in such a public forum. Third off I was one of 10 + individuls standing in a hargar with Mr. Gene Powers when he was getting his ass chewed by unnamed individules. Avbug I have no idea who you are but since you called me out and basicly and said I do not know what I am talking about I invite you to pm me and give me your phone number, I am more than happy to discuss with you the information I know. Also to say Norman at butler was taking shortcuts on airframe inspectons is crazy, the reason I say this is the boeing engineers and two other companies that I know of that work with them would wonder how they were finding wing areas to do large repairs that require boing to get involved if they were not doing thier inspections. Also the thing you mentiond about Aero Union well just wait there is more to come with Dyncorp and them since Areo Union is now unofficially for sale and rummor has it that Dyncorp is trying to get P-3's. Also if you read my post that I was bashing H&P I said that 5 breakups not all of them in history I know hemit had some the airforce had some ect ect. However H&P did have 5. And your right its not all H&P's fault. And just like in the past here is a couple guys I assume avbug your a pilot, arguing when infact the person's to be fighting with is I name Tony Kern, Dale Bosworth, Rose Davis, and forgive me I for get his name he is secretary of agriculture. Look I worked hard to get in this industry, and I watched those men die over colorado in T-123 so forgive me if I sound angry someone has told me I do not know what I am talking about. But seriously avbug pm me so we can discuss this because there is more to the story but not in a public form is it to discuss thanks all that read this and again I am sorry if I offended some of you I never ment to Because those that I know that worked at H&P were top notch people.

 

[cargopod]

DC-4
were you flying the fire that T123 went down on?

 

[avbug]

I'm not certain what there is to discuss. I wasn't there in Colorado when Rick and Milt were killed. I knew the airplane, though; I did my 4Y type rating in it. I was in that airplane in the field. I flew with both Rick and Milt...when Milt came to GEY, it was my car he used to get around. I spent time working on the hangar floor with Rick, I flew with him during his training and carding. I was also in T-130. I worked on all the airplanes, I flew them. I took my flight engineer turboprop ride in that airplane. I flew fires with Steve and Mike, and I checked our Craig in several company aircraft. I worked with all of them, side by side in Greybull, and in the field.

In other words, when it came to these aircraft and their maintenance at home and on the road, I was there. You want to assign blame, blame me. My fingerprints were all over them, as were my wrench marks, inside very panel, and on both yokes and each switch on the FE panel.

Your assertion on a public forum that the only breakups that ever occured in the fire service were H&P aircraft, and that H&P is responsible for the demise of the industry, is a very false allegation. False, and wrong. You know it, I know it, and I don't particularly care for it to be bantied about as something that bears any credibility on any public forum. Including here. I've seen this garbage beat to death on the AAP forum, and that's exactly what it is. Trash talk.

I never made any statements about Butler failing to perform inspections. To insinuate otherwise is also a bald-faced lie. I said no such thing. Butler/TBM ran good equipment and hired good people.

I'm familiar with Tony Kern. While he was still teaching at USAFA, he came to GEY and gave us a presentation at company request. An industry safety expert, he held himself out to be, with a litany of books and accolades. I didn't care for him then, told his so, and sat at lunch with him. I told him that his commentary applied to airline or corporate flying, but that he was far off the mark when it came to the type of flying we did. I suggestedhe might seek a better understanding of the business before trying to categorize us, judge us, or address the issues he raised. Further, if we tried to operate within his own narrowly defined parameters of what constitutes a safe airman or airmanship, none of us would ever fly. As it turned out, he made it his quest to see that that happened.

I would dearly love to fly a large air tanker again, but that's not going to happen. I pointed out some time ago what I thought was going to happen with dyncorp and was laughed off the stage. Well, guess what...

Presently I'm flying a turbine SEAT for the summer work, in addition to other work full time and part time, and I take a keen interest in the fire service, tankers, safety, and the fate and future of the industry.

I'm disturbed by any public allegations of wrong doing from the industry on these public forums. Any public forum. The rumors and misunderstandings about what has occured in the industry are legion, especially among the aviation community at large. Attempting to perpetuate garbage such as your allegations about H&P, speaking ill of the dead as it were, contributes nothing. Such material does not fly. At the AAP site, I saw quick attempts to villify H&P in an attempt to save other's bacon...make one guy look bad and take the fall, then perhaps everybody else can keep working. But it didn't work, it was foolish, and it only hurt the industry.

This spring in Boise, during a discussion at the 3-day SEAT conference, I brought up an example of communication and the reason for the current Fire Traffic Area concept that's in use. I cited the loss of Larry and Lars as the reason that this system has come into being as it is today, and as an example of potential for failure to communicate and observe the new(er) protocols. I did this to punctuate a point in light of the fact that many newer and inexperienced faces were in the crowd...faces that weren't familiar with even our more recent losses in the industry.

An individual with a very short fuze nearby began ranting and raving about that comment, and ran to my table after the meeting break was announced. Right in my face, he fumed and hollered and made quite a scene. Turns out he's a CDF pilot, just wanting a "rational" discussion. I suggested he back off, and he finally left the conference and didn't come back. Very unprofessional. I expected more from another member of the tanker community, but since the contract cancellations, I've been deeply disapointed at the leve of decorum and professionalism shown. The depths of this disappointment is manifest in just such comments as we see here now...comments condemning in this case H&P for all the woes, and false allegations.

An industry that cannot stand together cannot stand...and for now, very few are left standing. The business is filled with, or has been filled with, men of high caliber for whom I have great respect as aviators, firefighters, and as men. Steve Waas was among those, and I could have no greater respect than I had for Mike Davis. I look up to many in the business, and I sincerely hope that many may one day return to work. However, for the remainder, those who bicker and fight and condemn, I have little sympathy. I bought rolls of green ribbon, wore my own in solidarity and support. I wrote letters, made calls, did interviews for the press. But my disgust at the attitudes that became manifest, the childishness, the condemning, the false charges and rumors that flew, eventually caused me to take off that ribbon and trample it under boot in the retardant and mud.

My full support to the industry, but tearing it down from within, claiming things which are not, and condemning those who were every bit a part of us all, sickens me to the pit of my stomach, and of that, I can have no part.

 

[DC4boy]

I'm kinda sorry I missed this one.....

 

[DC4boy]

I saw it. It sucked. Kern sucks, move on.