AEPS - UPAS - Berliner Aviation Group

[publisher]

thanks

Thanks but I did not see anything here about UPAS owner saying shortage.

Secondly, I think Kit's statements are probably reasonable all considered.

Incidently, the regionals that are hiring are not taking a different level of experience than before.

Most try to make up classes of a variety of ages and experience levels.

You have to remember that those of us in the business of looking at this industry take a much wider stance than you might. As example, hiring at Netjets certainly never waivered that much. That counts in our world although may not in the view of someone who is only focused on airlines.

There has been continual hiring all along, corporately, fractionally, governements, etc.

 

[enigma]

Hey Publisher,
You may not remember, but I was one of the few who encouraged you to continue to post here a while back. I think that were we to be able to get together, we might be able to enjoy a few Guiness's. But, this semantic argument about Kit Darby makes you appear to be the same type of self promoter that he is. While Kit Darby may not say the words "pilot shortage" he is continually encouraging the uninformed and the impressionable to enter a career that is not nearly as lucrative as he makes it out to be.
I don't see much of the popular aviation press anymore, but I remember that for years, AirInc "provided" a hiring update to Flying magazines pages. It rarely, if ever, mentioned any drawback to the pursuit of a pilot job. And it rarely, if ever, mentioned any type of job other than an airline job. You talk of the career areas other than airlines that are hiring, but to listen to AirInc, you would think that ever job was at UAL.
I think that his information is misleading and self serving. I have never given FAPA, AirInc, etc, a penny and never will. On the other hand, I donated to AEPS for years just in case the perfect corporate job came open, because you all were originally a database of pilots and jobs. I recently cancelled because I don't need to know about airlines such as Spirit, nor am I pursuing a job at Airnet, nor do I care about how Bruce VanAllen rose to the top. But I do recognize the value of the service. So, I'm not against you.

It appears to me that the bottom line to all of this is not are there any jobs out there, but how many unemployed/underemployed pilots are there in the country?, and how can Darby continue to encourage new entrants to the business in good conscience?

My personal distaste comes from my econ 101 training that says something about suppy and demand. I think that Darby, et al, create an artificial demand, which creates an oversupply and drives my wages down. If I'm being selfish, so be it; but encouraging new entrants not only pressures my wages down, it keeps the wages low for the entrants as well.

regards
8N

PS. You wrote, "Incidently, the regionals that are hiring are not taking a different level of experience than before."

Do you not care about the number of pilots either out of work or working for too little?
Your statement implies that because the commuters are ignoring the more qualified pilots, that it must somehow be OK to continue and encourge more entrants to the field.
I'm not trying to squabble, but I must ask; Does the employement advisory community ever feel even slightly remorseful for the number of pilots who it lured into a career that demands what amounts to indentured servitude? And how many of you all find yourself 40 and can't land a job because someone else will cut you down just to get a little jet time, because he still thinks that once he gets that 1000 hours UAL will beg him for his services?

 

[bobbysamd]

Kit Darby

Very good post, Enigma. I like "artificial demand." Kit and his lieutenants created the one I know the best, the one in the mid '80s. He used the media to contrive a pilot shortage. Remember all the news reports about "pilot shortage" during that time? Always, FAPA was the source of the "shortage's" statistics.

I'm sure Kit's "shortage" made flight schools rich. I am grateful, in a way. It got me into professional aviation and created a job for me, as a flight instructor. It gave me hope that I could fly for a regional. It was hope based on false pretenses. The reality was there was no shortage. There never has been a pilot shortage.

I would agree with Kit, though, that with hiring being slow, fewer people are enrolling in flight schools, and now would be a good time to train.

I, too, enjoy Publisher's comments and his perspective.

 

[publisher]

semantics

I would agree that Kits view of the world is one of a United Captain who focuses on airlines, and, for the most part major airlines.

I really do not have a handle on how he was at FAPA, so would not comment. Since I have known him, there has never been the words pilot shortage.

Four days after September 11th, I got a letter from a young man of 20 who was lamenting that his dreams of an airline pilot career were over.

Enigma, I really do not disagree with your perspective if that is really how you feel about the job. Last week, I played in a golf tournament with three major carrier pilots. While they had all been through some rough times, by far they thought it was the best job that they could have ever had.

As to the regional experience level. I come from a business background. For the most part, I understand that many of the furloughees are in a grey zone and may be unemployable. Frankly, I commend the carriers that are hiring form their trying to put a balanced class together of people who will leave them later at different times.

The bottom line of this is that I have a passion for aviation, think that our best and brightest are not coming to this industry as before, and, if we don't do something about it, will lead to problems downstream.

I will leave the criticism to others of this business. I think most of it is the result of going from a regulated situation to deregulation. To have done that in the short time it was accomplished in a business where one makes their capital expennditures based on 20 years on average put tremendous pressure on carriers. The union situation with its artificial restraints is getting out of hand.

Perhaps I am not fair because I know I never wanted to be an airline pilot. Had I, a corporate or fractional would have been my choice. Maybe a FEDEX or night freight pilot. In the end, you have to find what is right for you.

 

[frank rizzo]

lest we forget upas was started none other but alpa and yep can you believe that after losing money for years they finally dumped it makes you wonder how long these outfits will be around !

 

[CL60]

Do it yourself

Ned,

Way back when... I tried all the above and received absolutely no information that I couldn't find on my own. I'm not saying these services don't find people jobs, I've heard of a few but, they did not help me at all.

In my experiences, networking will get you more leads than anything else. Your money can definitely be more usefully utilized.

Good luck,

 

[enigma]

Re: semantics

Enigma, I really do not disagree with your perspective if that is really how you feel about the job. ]

..........I didn't say how I feel about the job.

[Last week, I played in a golf tournament with three major carrier pilots. While they had all been through some rough times, by far they thought it was the best job that they could have ever had. ]

Good for them, but their timing, luck, and qualification landed them at a major. Tell me about the unlucky joe who originally went to work for PanAm, and who is still underemployed ten years after his dream job went down. For that matter, what does the fact that three current major airline pilots consider this the best job they could ever had? They are part of the luck few. I work with pilots who originally went to work for Eastern, Braniff, AirFlorida, TWA, PanAm, etc. Most of the ones I know couldn't get a job in the early mid-ninetys because they wouldn't buy their position. They have found themselves underemployed for ten years or more, and I place a lot of the blame for their situation on FAPA, AirInc, etc. having continued to ecourage entrance into a profession where there were 747 Captains out of work. Your point would be made even less relevant were you to talk to those guys, because they too would tell you that being a pilot was the best job they could have had. That statement only means that pilots love to fly. It has no bearing upon the value/worth of aviation job services such as AirInc.

[As to the regional experience level. I come from a business background. For the most part, I understand that many of the furloughees are in a grey zone and may be unemployable. ]

Be that as it may, how can you defend the propaganda mills that continually attempt to draw more entrants to an industry that is, and has been, oversupplied with labor?

[Frankly, I commend the carriers that are hiring form their trying to put a balanced class together of people who will leave them later at different times. ]


I don't have a problem with that, it's just sensible business, but we still haven't dealt with the topic of luring people into a profession that is already oversupplied with labor


[The bottom line of this is that I have a passion for aviation, think that our best and brightest are not coming to this industry as before, and, if we don't do something about it, will lead to problems downstream. ]


If you have a passion for aviation, and worry that the best and brightest are not coming to the industry, then why do you continue to defend those who are not looking for the best and the brightest, only those with money. I don't know what you consider best and the brightest, but I suspect that the "best and the brightest" who become interested in the industry soon realize that their talents could be better utilized, and appreciated elsewhere. Somewhere where they don't have to worry about losing an opportunity to someone who's only qualification is his daddys ability to write a check.
If you want the best and the brightest, I would suggest that you go on a crusade to develop a entrance system that ensures that the best and the brightest are able to compete with their skill and motivation, not by having to rely on how much the wife earns.


[I will leave the criticism to others of this business. I think most of it is the result of going from a regulated situation to deregulation. To have done that in the short time it was accomplished in a business where one makes their capital expennditures based on 20 years on average put tremendous pressure on carriers.]

I agree, but it hasn't stopped the carriers from providing golden parachutes for incapable CEO's.


[ The union situation with its artificial restraints is getting out of hand. ]

If the unions are the problem, (and as those that read my ramblings know, I have problems with unions at some levels myself); then why not convince congress to abolish the RLA? Unions can not force management to do anything, union contracts are business Agreements. To me, that means that management agreed to the terms of the contract, so management deserves half of the blame. If you have dislike for unions, why are you bothered that the best and the brightest don't come here. This is a unionized business.

I would agree that the unions were an obstacle to deregulation, but they have been getting weaker not stronger. As of today, companies are disregarding their contracts in issues of scope, no furlough clauses, etc., and the unions seem powerless to stop them. How is that "getting out of hand"?



[Perhaps I am not fair because I know I never wanted to be an airline pilot. Had I, a corporate or fractional would have been my choice. Maybe a FEDEX or night freight pilot. In the end, you have to find what is right for you.

I did find what was right for me, but I was starving doing it. I couldn't get a raise because, "pilots are a dime a dozen". I entered the airline world, because it was the only place where I could make a decent living. I'd be perfectly happy driving around a beat up old Beech18 if I could make enough to pay the mortgage. I can't because those employers have wannabees lined up around the block who will work for very little. Why do they want to work for little or nothing?, because they need the flight time in order to get that airline/major airline job. Why do they want a major airline job?, because unions have fought for and earned high wage scales. It's sort of sad, but when the workers who will work for less finally get their way, they will get to a "major" only to find that they have to work for commuter wages. Guess what the best and brightest will do then.

I take you to be a reasonable, obviously intelligent person. I hope you aren't taking anything personally, but I don't know any way to debate other than the way that I am doing now. I wouldn't waste the time to type, if I thought you were closed minded, so what do you think?

regards,
8N

Sorry about the way this response was formatted. It guess that just shows that I'm not one of the brightest
I guess that I'd better learn how to resond point by point.

 

[publisher]

Enigma

Enigma,

I feel I know how you feel about the job from what you write and it is not ranting nor anything but intelligent opinion.

That being said, I really cannot agree with the over supply statements being the cause.. If you had read any of my writings from the union mindset thread, you would know that I think that the union structure favors those at the top of the scale to the detriment of those at the bottom and not yet employed. The result is that the high seniority people get the best deal and the bottom rung is always underpaid.

You mention the older guys from Eastern, Braniff, and the rest. I agree that it is sad and many of them are my friends. As now with the furloughees, they are in the dead zone, for the most part unemployable. Do I blame Kit Darby and the people who have promoted aviation for this.

It is sort of like the CCAir situation. If they accepted the contract and ALPA did not, what should happen. When you agree to be part of a group, the dynamics change. If you disagree with the group or the group is out the door or the group has a different mission, you are along for the ride.

You will recall that I said that I would make a lousy airline captain, read that airline employee. It is not in my makeup to put my job situation as part of a group ( union) association etc. This is a very complex subject, a chicken and egg conversation. I never fit the box. My friends at Eastern lost their jobs because two ego maniacs were in a personal battle. Not because of any pilot employment inducement.

Enigma, I have been involved in the start up of 4 airlines or 135 operations, held management positions at several more. There are few things I saw different in aviation than in the 11 other businesses I consulted with. And, not once, in all that time, has any decision been made where pilot pay or rules have impacted significant business decisions.

 

[enigma]

agreement

You and I are much closer to agreement than you might think. Also, don't try to read too much into my union mindset posts. I do sometimes ask questions in order to gain information to help me mold my thoughts, not because I already have an opinion. Sometimes I ask questions to elicit thought and to help bring others to the realization that their thought process has lead them down the rosy path . I don't call myself a puzzle for nothing.

Thanks for replying, and I really meant that I don't mean to get personal. If I could have one wish for self improvement, it would be tact?

8N