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AEPS - UPAS - Berliner Aviation Group

Ned

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I'd like to get some information on these pilot services...

My limited opinions so far...

AEPS - I signed up for the free 10 day trail. I got lots of spam, finally blocked e-mails from aeps.com, then I got a packet in the mail that included a magazine. The magazince wasn't too bad, but didn't have any good information from my perspective. You can't look at any of the job listings without paying, so I guess thats not included in the trial. I got annoyed and decided they hadn't shown me any good reason to fork over the 12 bucks a month (or whatever it is)

UPAS - Ok, its $150.00 to join. I didin't see anything on their web site that convinced me to send them $150.00 Thats a lot of money.

Berliner Aviation Group - Ok these guys one some credit right off the bat with their claim that there is no pilot shortage and there never will be. They have a book called The 2002 Airline and Corporate Pilot Hiring Bible for $25.00 Anybody read it? Anybody used their other services which appear to be a one time charge?
 

ksu_aviator

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I personally don't think that any of those groups really do a whole lot for you.

The only way I have ever gotten a job is to send out resumes followed up by phone calls and/or personal visits.

If you want an airline job, pick your favorite airlines and send them a resume and cover letter. Do that every 6 months and find the phone number to their HR department. Keep a journal of their current news (helpful in the interview).

If you want a corporate or charter job, call them, send them a resume and call them again. Keep bugging them until they hire you or get a restraining order. ;)

Don't worry about minimums, they are usually flexible. Remember, almost any pilot can be trained to their standards. You have to make it an easy decision to hire you, they won't go out of the way to find you. So stand up and shout PICK ME PICK ME!

If you are still in college, usually your college has a career adviser that will help you set up a very good resume (there are also good posts in this forum and on Monster.com).

Good Luck.
 

bobbysamd

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Pilot head hunters

I agree 100% with the above. These groups do a great job of selling false hopes. In fact, my experience with headhunters as a whole is they play a lot of bait-and-switch with job openings. They get you all excited during their phone call, but when they bring you in all of a sudden the job in question is no longer open. They justify their fees by the numbers of bodies they get through the door. They are a total waste of time in my .02 opinion.

Be your own headhunter. Spam everyone. Update as you build hours and/or add ratings. Update with a resume if you change addresses. Stay abreast of company news. I realize it is frustrating to send out tons of stuff and to get no responses. However, all it takes is one.

Sometimes, it's tempting to place a followup call to H.R. Be very careful about that. Airlines in general and the commuters in particular receive tons of resumes, so, chances are, finding yours will be like finding a needle in a haystack. You don't want to annoy the person on the other end because that person could ace you. I would qualify these remarks to the extent that you can place followup phone calls, with care, to non-airline employers. Just use judgment on where and whom you call.

Good luck with your job search.
 
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dondk

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AEPS... I have been with them for a few years now...
THey have provided me with a few leads but the crux of the service I find is using the database to get those "hard to find" address, phone numbers, fax numbers, and most importanly NAMES. This database was successful in me aquiring a few interviews. Other than that I really see little value in the job info they send me.

Berliner... Bought the service, the books, video interview, you name it I went for it... hook, line and sinker!

They did the mailing to 10 airlines (4 came back return to sender, wrong address), re-did the resume (they did well), the guide book was worthless as many address were PO boxes and contact names were generic (HR, CP, DO). Used the service for advice, I got basically the same advice I heard from AIR Inc. Lastly, they really are geared for the Majors, you mention regionals and they have no clue.
All in all, I would say save your money!

UPAS... never tried it, but since they really only support an handful of companies I did not think the investment was worth it..

Well, that is my .02
 

publisher

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Bobby

My friend Bobby and I agree on somthings but when he falls back to his FAPA days we part a bit.

Bobby, AEPS is not a headhunter service, not an airline pilot procurement site, does not think there is a shortage, never said there was one, and provides a service sort of simple. You put your info in, any company wants to look at it can for FREE. To do that, the companies had some requests onhow it is set up. They did those.... Thousands have jobs now because of the program which is especially good for finding the less than obvious situations. Many of the companies that use the service DO NOT POST because they do not want unsolicited resumes.

UPAS has been killed by the September 11 activities and lack of hiring by the 26 companies that use it. Of the 26, 14 also used AEPS.

The magazine AviationCareer.net has been running a series called Jobs at the Speed of Light that goes over all the reputable services.
 

bobbysamd

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Headhunters

Actually, I was taking aim at headhunters at general, aviation notwithstanding. I remember belonging to some aviation job service some years ago in New Orleans that did absolutely nothing for me.

Pub, are we agreeing that Kit and FAPA indeed purveyed false hopes? :) :)

For the public record, I do receive Publisher's avationcareer.net online and enjoy reading it. In fact, the article in the one I received today on people who are trying to live down rap sheets has some excellent information. The piece raised points about people who are trying to get on with their lives after making mistakes. The Comair article had some good information, too, after you get past the hype, and I'm not a major CAA fan. I also appreciated the article on approaching an interview as your first day on the job and not as an "interview."

Just the same, you can try the services but you are still better off hyping yourself. As the old saying goes, all things cometh to he who waiteth, while he worketh like hell while he waiteth. Another saying: If you don't blow your own whistle, who's going to blow it for you?

One again, good luck with your job search.
 
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Pilotadjuster

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UPAS

Kind of on the same subject; I saw an article in Plane and Pilot, in which the owner of UPAS (the name was familiar from old flame posts on this board...) mentioned that hiring has not suffered at all from 9/11; in fact, will be almost as good as last year. He attributes this to the oncoming pilot shortage :rolleyes:

As usual for P&P they didn't do any research into his comments, just printed them as quoted and let you think that was it! From what I have seen on this board and personally, thats good enough reason not to send money to UPAS....
 

publisher

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reply

Bobby,

I really never was paying that much attention to Kit when he was doing FAPA with his partner.

I have heard him speak on numerous times over the last three years and have not heard him make any pronouncements that I though were out of whack.

As I said somewhere, I have never heard the words --- there is a pilot shortage ---come from Kit or AEPS or UPAS, in fact just the opposite.

I have heard positive comments about pilot hiring in 2002, however, one must realize that you may be thinking airline and for most of us in the business, the scope goes way past that to all pilots hired everywhere to fly all kinds og missions.

Does anyone think that it is at the level of 2001, not really and especially at major carriers.

If there is an article from Plane and Pilot that you have, I would appreciate that information in specific.
 

Pilotadjuster

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P&P article

Page 56--P&P this month

""In reality the light (at the end of the tunnel) never went out," explains Kit Darby of AIR Inc., and Atlanta aviation career-specialist firm that tracks the nation's airline economy and assists in pilot placement. "Even in October--the first full month after the attacks--500 new pilots were hired with another 621 in January. We're looking at 5,000 to 6,000 new jobs this year--not as big as it has been, but by no means has hiring ceased."

As for the majors, Darby says "There will likely be more furloughs in the major airlines. But many of these pilots won't choose to step down during the interim to smaller, regional carriers--the target job market for new pilots. I don't see much reason for a person to turn away from a pilot career, to be honest. The race is still on. True, the finish line has been pushed a year or two down the road, but the winners will still be those who ran hard during the whole race.

"There's a good argument that this period of reduced hiring is the time to start your pilot training," Darby notes. "During this time, fewer pilots will be gaining their seniority ahead of you. And the smaller airlines, in particular are making quicker recoveries. It's important to realize that there are jobs out there. Of the 210 carriers we track, 78--or about 35%--are currently recruiting. Not as good as our last six banner years, certainly. But you'll want to be a compeitive candidate the minute better times return."

My bad--he didn't say anything about a "pilot shortage".

PA
 

dondk

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I find the quote funny...

It does state "some" truth but it fails to state those being hired are not the "lower" time people of the last 2-3 years.
Those starting out nowadays is a good 2-3 years from a regional, where as 18 months a go it was about a year to 16 months.

The experience level has increased dramatically with the furloughs and the smaller carriers have a nice selection to choose from. What was it a 18 months ago? classes of 40 or more each month and maybe they were interviewing a 100 month? Now the class sizes are 20 and month and they are still interviewing 100 a month?

Competitive candidate's... we will see where they are in 2-3 years? any one willing to take bet's on how high?
 

publisher

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thanks

Thanks but I did not see anything here about UPAS owner saying shortage.

Secondly, I think Kit's statements are probably reasonable all considered.

Incidently, the regionals that are hiring are not taking a different level of experience than before.

Most try to make up classes of a variety of ages and experience levels.

You have to remember that those of us in the business of looking at this industry take a much wider stance than you might. As example, hiring at Netjets certainly never waivered that much. That counts in our world although may not in the view of someone who is only focused on airlines.

There has been continual hiring all along, corporately, fractionally, governements, etc.
 

enigma

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Hey Publisher,
You may not remember, but I was one of the few who encouraged you to continue to post here a while back. I think that were we to be able to get together, we might be able to enjoy a few Guiness's. But, this semantic argument about Kit Darby makes you appear to be the same type of self promoter that he is. While Kit Darby may not say the words "pilot shortage" he is continually encouraging the uninformed and the impressionable to enter a career that is not nearly as lucrative as he makes it out to be.
I don't see much of the popular aviation press anymore, but I remember that for years, AirInc "provided" a hiring update to Flying magazines pages. It rarely, if ever, mentioned any drawback to the pursuit of a pilot job. And it rarely, if ever, mentioned any type of job other than an airline job. You talk of the career areas other than airlines that are hiring, but to listen to AirInc, you would think that ever job was at UAL.
I think that his information is misleading and self serving. I have never given FAPA, AirInc, etc, a penny and never will. On the other hand, I donated to AEPS for years just in case the perfect corporate job came open, because you all were originally a database of pilots and jobs. I recently cancelled because I don't need to know about airlines such as Spirit, nor am I pursuing a job at Airnet, nor do I care about how Bruce VanAllen rose to the top. But I do recognize the value of the service. So, I'm not against you.

It appears to me that the bottom line to all of this is not are there any jobs out there, but how many unemployed/underemployed pilots are there in the country?, and how can Darby continue to encourage new entrants to the business in good conscience?

My personal distaste comes from my econ 101 training that says something about suppy and demand. I think that Darby, et al, create an artificial demand, which creates an oversupply and drives my wages down. If I'm being selfish, so be it; but encouraging new entrants not only pressures my wages down, it keeps the wages low for the entrants as well.

regards
8N

PS. You wrote, "Incidently, the regionals that are hiring are not taking a different level of experience than before."

Do you not care about the number of pilots either out of work or working for too little?
Your statement implies that because the commuters are ignoring the more qualified pilots, that it must somehow be OK to continue and encourge more entrants to the field.
I'm not trying to squabble, but I must ask; Does the employement advisory community ever feel even slightly remorseful for the number of pilots who it lured into a career that demands what amounts to indentured servitude? And how many of you all find yourself 40 and can't land a job because someone else will cut you down just to get a little jet time, because he still thinks that once he gets that 1000 hours UAL will beg him for his services?
 
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bobbysamd

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Kit Darby

Very good post, Enigma. I like "artificial demand." Kit and his lieutenants created the one I know the best, the one in the mid '80s. He used the media to contrive a pilot shortage. Remember all the news reports about "pilot shortage" during that time? Always, FAPA was the source of the "shortage's" statistics.

I'm sure Kit's "shortage" made flight schools rich. I am grateful, in a way. It got me into professional aviation and created a job for me, as a flight instructor. It gave me hope that I could fly for a regional. It was hope based on false pretenses. The reality was there was no shortage. There never has been a pilot shortage.

I would agree with Kit, though, that with hiring being slow, fewer people are enrolling in flight schools, and now would be a good time to train.

I, too, enjoy Publisher's comments and his perspective.
 
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publisher

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semantics

I would agree that Kits view of the world is one of a United Captain who focuses on airlines, and, for the most part major airlines.

I really do not have a handle on how he was at FAPA, so would not comment. Since I have known him, there has never been the words pilot shortage.

Four days after September 11th, I got a letter from a young man of 20 who was lamenting that his dreams of an airline pilot career were over.

Enigma, I really do not disagree with your perspective if that is really how you feel about the job. Last week, I played in a golf tournament with three major carrier pilots. While they had all been through some rough times, by far they thought it was the best job that they could have ever had.

As to the regional experience level. I come from a business background. For the most part, I understand that many of the furloughees are in a grey zone and may be unemployable. Frankly, I commend the carriers that are hiring form their trying to put a balanced class together of people who will leave them later at different times.

The bottom line of this is that I have a passion for aviation, think that our best and brightest are not coming to this industry as before, and, if we don't do something about it, will lead to problems downstream.

I will leave the criticism to others of this business. I think most of it is the result of going from a regulated situation to deregulation. To have done that in the short time it was accomplished in a business where one makes their capital expennditures based on 20 years on average put tremendous pressure on carriers. The union situation with its artificial restraints is getting out of hand.

Perhaps I am not fair because I know I never wanted to be an airline pilot. Had I, a corporate or fractional would have been my choice. Maybe a FEDEX or night freight pilot. In the end, you have to find what is right for you.
 

frank rizzo

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lest we forget upas was started none other but alpa and yep can you believe that after losing money for years they finally dumped it makes you wonder how long these outfits will be around !
 

CL60

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Do it yourself

Ned,

Way back when... I tried all the above and received absolutely no information that I couldn't find on my own. I'm not saying these services don't find people jobs, I've heard of a few but, they did not help me at all.

In my experiences, networking will get you more leads than anything else. Your money can definitely be more usefully utilized.

Good luck,
 

enigma

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Re: semantics

publisher said:

Enigma, I really do not disagree with your perspective if that is really how you feel about the job. ]

..........I didn't say how I feel about the job.

[Last week, I played in a golf tournament with three major carrier pilots. While they had all been through some rough times, by far they thought it was the best job that they could have ever had. ]

Good for them, but their timing, luck, and qualification landed them at a major. Tell me about the unlucky joe who originally went to work for PanAm, and who is still underemployed ten years after his dream job went down. For that matter, what does the fact that three current major airline pilots consider this the best job they could ever had? They are part of the luck few. I work with pilots who originally went to work for Eastern, Braniff, AirFlorida, TWA, PanAm, etc. Most of the ones I know couldn't get a job in the early mid-ninetys because they wouldn't buy their position. They have found themselves underemployed for ten years or more, and I place a lot of the blame for their situation on FAPA, AirInc, etc. having continued to ecourage entrance into a profession where there were 747 Captains out of work. Your point would be made even less relevant were you to talk to those guys, because they too would tell you that being a pilot was the best job they could have had. That statement only means that pilots love to fly. It has no bearing upon the value/worth of aviation job services such as AirInc.

[As to the regional experience level. I come from a business background. For the most part, I understand that many of the furloughees are in a grey zone and may be unemployable. ]

Be that as it may, how can you defend the propaganda mills that continually attempt to draw more entrants to an industry that is, and has been, oversupplied with labor?

[Frankly, I commend the carriers that are hiring form their trying to put a balanced class together of people who will leave them later at different times. ]


I don't have a problem with that, it's just sensible business, but we still haven't dealt with the topic of luring people into a profession that is already oversupplied with labor


[The bottom line of this is that I have a passion for aviation, think that our best and brightest are not coming to this industry as before, and, if we don't do something about it, will lead to problems downstream. ]


If you have a passion for aviation, and worry that the best and brightest are not coming to the industry, then why do you continue to defend those who are not looking for the best and the brightest, only those with money. I don't know what you consider best and the brightest, but I suspect that the "best and the brightest" who become interested in the industry soon realize that their talents could be better utilized, and appreciated elsewhere. Somewhere where they don't have to worry about losing an opportunity to someone who's only qualification is his daddys ability to write a check.
If you want the best and the brightest, I would suggest that you go on a crusade to develop a entrance system that ensures that the best and the brightest are able to compete with their skill and motivation, not by having to rely on how much the wife earns.


[I will leave the criticism to others of this business. I think most of it is the result of going from a regulated situation to deregulation. To have done that in the short time it was accomplished in a business where one makes their capital expennditures based on 20 years on average put tremendous pressure on carriers.]

I agree, but it hasn't stopped the carriers from providing golden parachutes for incapable CEO's.


[ The union situation with its artificial restraints is getting out of hand. ]

If the unions are the problem, (and as those that read my ramblings know, I have problems with unions at some levels myself); then why not convince congress to abolish the RLA? Unions can not force management to do anything, union contracts are business Agreements. To me, that means that management agreed to the terms of the contract, so management deserves half of the blame. If you have dislike for unions, why are you bothered that the best and the brightest don't come here. This is a unionized business.

I would agree that the unions were an obstacle to deregulation, but they have been getting weaker not stronger. As of today, companies are disregarding their contracts in issues of scope, no furlough clauses, etc., and the unions seem powerless to stop them. How is that "getting out of hand"?



[Perhaps I am not fair because I know I never wanted to be an airline pilot. Had I, a corporate or fractional would have been my choice. Maybe a FEDEX or night freight pilot. In the end, you have to find what is right for you.

I did find what was right for me, but I was starving doing it. I couldn't get a raise because, "pilots are a dime a dozen". I entered the airline world, because it was the only place where I could make a decent living. I'd be perfectly happy driving around a beat up old Beech18 if I could make enough to pay the mortgage. I can't because those employers have wannabees lined up around the block who will work for very little. Why do they want to work for little or nothing?, because they need the flight time in order to get that airline/major airline job. Why do they want a major airline job?, because unions have fought for and earned high wage scales. It's sort of sad, but when the workers who will work for less finally get their way, they will get to a "major" only to find that they have to work for commuter wages. Guess what the best and brightest will do then.

I take you to be a reasonable, obviously intelligent person. I hope you aren't taking anything personally, but I don't know any way to debate other than the way that I am doing now. I wouldn't waste the time to type, if I thought you were closed minded, so what do you think?

regards,
8N

Sorry about the way this response was formatted. It guess that just shows that I'm not one of the brightest:)
I guess that I'd better learn how to resond point by point.
 

publisher

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Enigma

Enigma,

I feel I know how you feel about the job from what you write and it is not ranting nor anything but intelligent opinion.

That being said, I really cannot agree with the over supply statements being the cause.. If you had read any of my writings from the union mindset thread, you would know that I think that the union structure favors those at the top of the scale to the detriment of those at the bottom and not yet employed. The result is that the high seniority people get the best deal and the bottom rung is always underpaid.

You mention the older guys from Eastern, Braniff, and the rest. I agree that it is sad and many of them are my friends. As now with the furloughees, they are in the dead zone, for the most part unemployable. Do I blame Kit Darby and the people who have promoted aviation for this.

It is sort of like the CCAir situation. If they accepted the contract and ALPA did not, what should happen. When you agree to be part of a group, the dynamics change. If you disagree with the group or the group is out the door or the group has a different mission, you are along for the ride.

You will recall that I said that I would make a lousy airline captain, read that airline employee. It is not in my makeup to put my job situation as part of a group ( union) association etc. This is a very complex subject, a chicken and egg conversation. I never fit the box. My friends at Eastern lost their jobs because two ego maniacs were in a personal battle. Not because of any pilot employment inducement.

Enigma, I have been involved in the start up of 4 airlines or 135 operations, held management positions at several more. There are few things I saw different in aviation than in the 11 other businesses I consulted with. And, not once, in all that time, has any decision been made where pilot pay or rules have impacted significant business decisions.
 

enigma

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agreement

You and I are much closer to agreement than you might think. Also, don't try to read too much into my union mindset posts. I do sometimes ask questions in order to gain information to help me mold my thoughts, not because I already have an opinion. Sometimes I ask questions to elicit thought and to help bring others to the realization that their thought process has lead them down the rosy path . I don't call myself a puzzle for nothing.

Thanks for replying, and I really meant that I don't mean to get personal. If I could have one wish for self improvement, it would be tact?

8N
 
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