advice to fledgelings?

[wingnutt]

ok, for some odd reason a good friend of mine has decided that he wants to join the pilot ranks. if a good friend of yours decided to go to flight school, what advice would you give him knowing what you know now? or would you discourage them knowing the state of the industry right now? hes already picked a no-name school that has little or no twins available, because its close to his girlfriends place. i tried to get him to find a school to get as much multi in order to be a little ahead of the game, but hes blinded by the power of the kitty

anywhoo...

 

[Typhoon1244]

He's already picked a no-name school that has little or no twins available, because its close to his girlfriends place.

Rule 01.a is "do not make career-affecting decisions based on a relationship with someone you're not married to." (01.b and 01.c deal with marriage...but that's another issue.) Slap him around, pour some old coffee down his pants, do whatever it takes, but tell your friend he's getting off to an incredibly bad start if he's planning his training around a girl. Tell him if he's serious about flying, he's got to get his priorities straight now!

Tell him if he can scarpe together the cash, he's better off at a "big-name" school (Embry-Riddle, FlightSafety, Spartan, U.N.D., etc.). It doesn't matter so much while he's just getting his private, but it'll be important later. With so many (1) furloughed, (2) ex-military, and (3) regional pilots hanging around, he's got to make himself competitive.

He needs to understand that it might be a long, long time before he sees the cockpit of an airliner. He can get there...but he's going to have to have the patience of a saint.

Get him away from that girl. I mean it!

(What's she look like? You got her phone number? )

 

[350DRIVER]

if a good friend of yours decided to go to flight school, what advice would you give him knowing what you know now?

I don't think I would give him much if any advice pertaining to the negatives, current shape of the industry, furloughed pilots, current shape of the airlines, short term outlook, blah blah blah, instead I would be supportive and willing to help him out per his request. Obviously you can dwell on the "negatives" of the current shape of the industry as a whole but why do so.?? It is just a matter of time until hiring picks back up. I would assume that he wants to learn to fly because he has a great interest and possibly an even stronger desire to want to join the pilot ranks. - Let him enjoy his "early" flight days, he will have plenty of time to worry about the negatives at the a p p r o p r i a t e time down the line.

or would you discourage them knowing the state of the industry right now?

would you quit flying tomm. morning since the major airlines are not currently hiring due to the current shape of the industry.?? -

hes already picked a no-name school that has little or no twins available

It makes absolutely no difference whether it is a "name" flight school or not, what does matter is that it is a "quality" flight school with good instructors... If anything he will be saving quite abit of money doing it this way. ( - Before he has to worry about the school having "little or no twins available" he needs to get his private, instrument, etc, etc, ... - He can always switch schools if need be sometime down the line if need be.

i tried to get him to find a school to get as much multi in order to be a little ahead of the game,

He will have plenty of time to worry about this once again at the appropriate time.>> (a fitting word to say the least)


If I was in your position I would be as supportive as you could be and try not to influence him with personal opinions speaking on emotions more so than facts. my $.02


3 5 0

 

[wingnutt]

im with y'all on the girl issue. its funny but i was just having a conversation with a few other pilots how avaition definately seems to favor the single guy. dunno about y'all, but theres more than one oppurtunity ive turned down because of family.

i do think otherwise on the neagtive theory though. i just dont want him to believe all the hype hes gonna hear from his school, a mainline pilot he may know, perhaps (heaven forbid) Mr. darby himself, or even something trivial as a movie (anyone see Catch Me If You Can) and getting glamorous thoughts of the big pilot shortage, $200 an hour, and a stewardess on each arm.

but good call on the training, to snag his private and think of a transfer. i really think that one of them package deals where they use the twin for alot of the instrument/commercial training (ie; all atps) will give him an advantage...and we all know that anything you can do for a leg up is worth it in the long run.

...anyone else???

 

[100LL... Again!]

There is a downside of the big schools.

They can be expensive.

Suppose you get through your ratings and are then too poor to flight instruct,so you decide to get a part time job to pay the bill, then instruct when you get a little cash flow. Bang. Another poor soul falls off the aviation wagon. Seen it over and over. Being married can really accelerate this.

If you KNEW you were going to get a job right away, it might be different. Those days are over for a while.

Also, consider a small local FBO with a charter department.
Lower prices, perhaps, a guaranteed CFI job, and transition to the 135 dept.

If he winces at the idea of instructing because of starry jet eyes, tell him to stay out of this business.
We'll all get there someday. By the time you do, it's not always that special. REAL PILOTS fly because they love to fly. Not because they love to wear epaulettes and fly jet aircraft.

The test of a real pilot is whether they would fly even if they never made it to anything 'glamorous'.

 

[list2002]

Let him ask his girlfriend whether she's down for the long haul, because even if he stays local for the flight school, his first job, maybe even his first instructing job, could be anywhere in the US.
The small no-name flight school is ok, all the big name places are running out of their "connections" promises, as long as the school is SAFE and the instructors are good.
You waste a lot of money on instructors that spend a lot of air time teaching you nothing.
If he want's to stay local, but doesn't mind moving away for a mere 3 months, tell him to get his private license with the small school and his girlfriend then go to ATP inc. and get the rest of his ratings with 140 actual multi engine hours for $35,000, and then go back home and instruct at the place he got his private.
(couldn't help myself) But it's the quickest way he will get competative and marketable for hirable flying.

 

[jergar999]

I went to ATP fresh out of my private, and I'm working now. Be careful though, 50 hours of "multi-time" is in a FTD and doesn't count towards anything except your instrument rating. Otherwise, I would recommend them. I'm married with children and can attest to the frustration being immobile carries. Definitely something to think about.

 

[bobbysamd]

Choosing a Flight School 101

Your friend may find this one hard to swallow, but you don't choose a flight school because it is near your girlfriend. You choose a school for the training it provides and for career facilitation.

Unfortunately, choosing the school on those bases may mean some time apart from your girlfriend. That may be a good thing because (1) see above and (2) training for a professional piloting career requires your full attention. No matter how mature you are, it's hard to concentrate fully on learning if your babe is nearby. Bear in mind the discussion in the FOI about the laws of learning and specifically the Law of Readiness.

I second Typhoon1244 100% on choice of school, and not because my career consisted of instructing at primarily large flight schools. There's a lot to be said about standardized, disciplined flight training. You'll need the discipline sooner or later, especially when you take your first drink from the commuter airline firehose. So, why not get the discipline sooner? In any event, big or small, your first consideration must be quality.

I see this as a good time for career preparation. Flight schools seem to be busier when hiring is good and people jump on the hiring bandwagon. There's no hiring bandwagon on which to jump right now. Schools will be less busy, which means your friend stands an excellent chance of getting more personalized attention. By the time he finishes and builds a little time, hiring may improve and he'll be set.

The only reasons to discourage someone might be health and vision considerations, i.e., ability to obtain and maintain a First Class Medical, and age, younger being better but older not being impossible. Under 20? Absolutely! Under 25? Certainly. Military being an honorable option for these age groups. Under 30? Sure. More than 30-35? Possibly, but don't count on getting to the majors. Over 40? Forget the majors and commuters, but consider corporate, charter, freight, frax, and full-time instructing.

Hope that helps.

 

[list2002]

Not anymopre. ATP gets you 140 multi airplane time, AND 50 hours multi-simulatoir time.

 

[bobbysamd]

All ATPs

Speaking of All ATPs, I received some spam today about this new 10-month program the place now offers.

It makes sense. The learning doesn't come at you quite as fast and there is no reason to feel pressed to finish during these times. However, unless you live in or near any of the school's locations, you'll burn up a lot of time and money commuting

 

[skydiverdriver]

I once had a friend who moved to be closer to his girlfriend, and took a job with less advancement than another he was offered. She then promptly left him. So, the first piece of advice you got was very good. If she can't handle you being away and moving around for your work, she won't be able to handle you being an airline pilot later on. Trust me on this one.

As far as schools go, I would have gone to one that does most of their training in twins, like ATP and some others. It may sound more expensive at first, but later when you have no multi time and are trying to get some, it becomes way more expensive. My last piece of advise would be to never give up. Things might not look so rosey for airline employment right now, but this is a good time to get qualified. Shake the trees and do whatever it takes to get good experience and all your ratings. Do it all as soon as you can and never stop trying. If you do, you will always regret it and perhaps try again when you are much older. It's always better to take the chances when you are young, as you can always make up the money. Time is something you cannot make up. Good luck to you.

 

[bobbysamd]

It's always better to take the chances when you are young, as you can always make up the money. Time is something you cannot make up . . . .

. . . and you'll be still young enough to try something else if aviation doesn't work out.

Once again, good luck to Wingnutt's friend.

 

[enigma]

If you love someone, turn them loose, etc. If she loves him, she will understand the need for him receiving the best training. If she really cares, she could follow him. Unless she is in law/medical school. Then maybe he shoud hang with her, and get his training later. The most precious asset of any aspiring pilot is a dedicated spouse with a highly portable/high income job. If she's a nurse, he's found a keeper. They can get a job anywhere.

Seriously, I would encourage anyone to pursue happiness in their relationship over instant career gratification. If the girl is just an overnight obsession, she can be replaced, but if she is "the" girl, he will need her during times of his life when only she can provide the necessary emotional support. His buddies in the crashpad will comiserate and raise a beer in support, but they are no substitute for a committed spouse. Just make sure that he has enough sense to prevent children until he has achieved stability in the career. It's the kids that tie you down, not the wife.

Good Luck to him,
8N

 

[pilotyip]

Flying job or life style

What does this guy want to do, become a pilot and get a flying job no matter what, or does he want to have a "life style" making lots of money, lots of days off, only work when he wants to by bidding lines he likes, and free travel all over? It makes me think of the pilot at meet at Air Inc in ATL in 2000 who was pursuing life style, before he had the hours for his first job. Any one reading this board can make it as a pilot and eventually make it to a point where they can live on what they make, it may not be a "major", but it might be a good charter operation, a good corporate job, or something involving flying airplanes. It is hard, it is lots of moves, you go where the next job is, it is living in flop houses with 4 other pilots and one bathroom down the hall, it not buying any new underwear for one year, it is driving a car that you jump start from the battery you keep in the apt on a charger, it is being 100% subservient to your bosses wishes until you can move to your next job and he gives you a good recommendation, it is saying no to your brothers birthday party, it is saying no to being home a Christmas. Come to think about it, this sounds alot like being in the Navy, except for the underwear part. They made us get new stuff. You do not need a 4 yr degree to make it as a successful pilot, in fact you may get to the non "major" level of flying quicker without the time wasted in the pursuit of the 4 yr degree, you need a talent for flying, you need a most gracious personality that focuses on what you can give and not what you can take, and a goal is sight that you will pursue no matter what. Family, girl fiends (more than one night) , babies, do not count, they only get in the way. I have had more than one flight student, older guys starting flying in their late 40's early 50's, tell me they wished they had it all to do over again, they would gone into flying as soon as they could of, but Suzy (girl friend) wanted the house, the babies, and when she wants babies who can resist the temptation, the family lifestyle, and they thought there would be time later, but once the commitments come and you elect to honor them, there is no later, until all the kids have left home and you are semi free again. I know this post will probably draw flack like flying across the Ho Chi Minh trail, because it so politically incorrect, and besides I am semi management in a bottom feeder industry, so what would I know . But you ask, so here is my input from the prospective of 35 years in this business.

 

[wingnutt]

Unless she is in law/medical school.

bingo. thats why he thinks its best to move to her. however, she is just starting the law program.../who knows if she'll even make it thru.

 

[waka]

Over 40? Forget the majors and commuters

I disagree with this statement. When the job market improves, it is not unreasonable to consider yourself marketable to commuters and even, to a lesser degree, majors when starting at 40. Even though it would be more difficult it can be (and has been) done.

In some cases, it may be an advantage to be older as a commuter applicant. HR knows that your chances of staying are better.

 

[bobbysamd]

Over 40? Forget the majors and commuters

I disagree with this statement. When the job market improves, it is not unreasonable to consider yourself marketable to commuters and even, to a lesser degree, majors when starting at 40. Even though it would be more difficult it can be (and has been) done.

In some cases, it may be an advantage to be older as a commuter applicant. HR knows that your chances of staying are better.

The commuters practice age discrimination. I know. I cannot offer documentation (Have you ever heard of a company that will tell you why you weren't hired or interviewed, except for not meeting requirements?), but I am convinced that based on my experience it happened to me.

I was a post-35-year-old career changer. I, too, thought that being older would be an advantage. In reality, it may not be. Think about it. The commuters don't expect their pilots to stay. They know that pilots are there primarily to build time. Most of them are younger. Yes, older people are more likely to stay, but the commuters don't want that. To stay means that these "lifers" will top out at scale, meaning they have to be paid more than the transients, and that they will vest in the company's retirement program. That means that at age 60 these companies will be responsible for their pensions and health benefits. That costs money. Regional airlines don't wanna spend money.

Another reason why regionals would reject older applicants is they figure that older people won't accept the horrid pay but younger people will take anything. Well, who wants the horrid pay? Is a 19-year-old less worthy than a 40-year-old? Or vice versa? That issue is cleared up by operation of the hiring process, i.e. you must have an idea about the pay if you apply and/or the question can be addressed at the interview.

Go search my other posts for my complete story. I won't rehash it all here. I'll just say that my much-younger instructor peers at ERAU were getting interviews and jobs at the same places to which I, who was closing in at 40, was not. These folks and I had virtually the same quals, i.e. flight time built up strictly through instructing. Nothing that would set them apart from me, i.e. banner towing, freight, 135, etc. It doesn't take an H.R. savant, pilot, or rocket scientist to figure it out.

You do hear of over-40 pilots getting on at the majors. You're not hearing the whole truth. These pilots are already extremely experienced and qualified, have been flying for many years, and come from the military, commuters, freight, corporate, etc. They're just finally getting their chance. I seriously doubt that many people over forty who changed careers are being hired at the majors; if so, it is the exception and not the rule.

As always, only my .02 opinion, borne out of my experiences and those of others.

 

[acabello]

Women come and go but a carreer decision now will stick with you forever.

Kitty is nice