Advice to a future NAV

[ktulu34535]

Allrighty I am a nav select from ROTC, still holding out hope for a pilot slot on the alt list but also planning my future. REALLY hoping for strike/fighter nav training.

My goal is to someday fly for the airlines and I know that being a nav will give my resume the credibility of being in the military and being able to function in a strict regulated environment but as far as anything else it would be the same thing as if I were a logistics officer and was nowhere near a plane.

Obviously, I will shoot for the AD boards to pilot but I was wondering if anyone had any advice to help me chase my dream, how would one go about being competitive for the airlines while being a nav?

Would it be worth it to rent at the aero-club and try to build my multi engine time? Since I am a commercial pilot I am aware that navs with their commercial can get UAV slots, would this be worth anything to the airlines? Or should I not bother with renting and just get out after my ADSC is up and pretty much start from scratch, realizing that I would lose a lot of money but money is just money and a dream sustains me through tough times. Plus the way I am looking at it, I should be able to save a lot of dough on AD if I don't go out and spend it frivolously on say a lt mobile.

Or would it be more worth it to just do my 20 years and flight instruct on the side?

Who knows I might really just like being a nav and have no ambition to fly for the airlines (something tells me thats not the way its going to be) but I just want to know if anyone has any tips out there for trying to pursue that dream.

Thanks for any help!!!

 

[pilotyip]

do a search

do a search under Nav or Military and there have been a number of posts. As a former Nav, I can tell you I enjoyed Navigating, in fact when flying accross the ocean it was more interesting shooting the sun and stars than monitering the auto pilot watching the F/E and the A/C sleep in their seats. It the old days all Navy patrol pilots had to qualify as Nav's prior t o making A/C

 

[CCDiscoB]

How long is the UNT commitment these days? If you get picked up for UPT after serving a couple years as a Nav you will incur an 11 year commitment. The AF loves to have Rated Officers go to UPT. Think how long you will be "dedicated" to the AF. Don't get me wrong, if it works out, go for it! Heck, I'm not doing much better.

But reading what you wrote...

My goal is to someday fly for the airlines and I know that being a Nav will give my resume the credibility of being in the military

...then do your time, build your hours and consider yourself on the "civilian route" when you get out. By "civilian route" I mean, you amy have to take a "fly by night" job, like many of the guys on this board did, to get your PIC time up. I ran into a former WSO of mine doing exactly want you're talking about. He's getting more 121 time than I am right now. Good Luck, get that Strike Eagle, and if you're true to your cause you won't get married. That pay cut you will take when you get out and start flying as a civilian will be prohibitive if you don't plan ahead. That successful WSO I mentioned wasn't married.

 

[ktulu34535]

thanks

Well SUNT is 8 years now.

I didn't think ADSC were cumulative...

I have an ADSC for my scholarship of 4 years, my SUNT would be 8 and then pilot would be 10, does this mean I would be required to serve on AD for 22 years? What if I went to AWC?

What if I got passed over for promotion twice?

Just wondering, is my understanding correct or not?

 

[bssthound]

Hey,
I'm one of quite a few navs currently flying at ASA. There's another nav in my AF Reserve squadron who's a Comair Captain. I know another two navs who're Comair Captains, another one at Midwest Express, one who's a Delta MD-88 Captain, and I could go on. My point is that quite a few of us have done it.
As a Guard RF-4 WSO I got my private license, then bit the bullet and went to a Part 141 school. I got all my ratings there and did the standard CFI thing. Sidetracked working for a defense contractor, I decided that having to look in the mirror to shave I'd better find an occupation that would let me look at myself without wanting to eat a bullet. I got on with the 53d WRS Hurricane Hunters. I bummed too long at the 53d but finally got off my ayuss (Miss'ippi for a word that's censored here) and built my time to meet the minimums.
You already have a commercial single. Get your multi and
GET THE MEI!!!! Build your multi time that way at the aero club or freelance if you're stationed near a busy civilian airport.
Ask around, there'll be some sort of multi flying you can get in on.
By the time your AD commitment is up you'll be sitting pretty for the regionals.
Don't sell your nav time short. It did me a world of good in my ASA interview. I interviewed with an Army helo guy and had worded my nav time on my resume' to show how vital I was to the missions I'd done and how much situational awareness I'd gained through dodging the likes of CCDB, Albie, and Eagleflip, multiple pond crossings, hurricane penetrations, and other mighty deeds.
Make the most of your time on AD. If you end up a nav it is NOT the end of the world. You can still meet your goal with few or no problems.
If I still have your attention, let me now try to sell you on the ANG, AF Reserves. Not only is it a really nice paycheck, but who are the part-time pilots???? EXACTLY!! They're airline pilots!! When you start becoming competitive for the majors you have a HUGE advantage over the other guys. You will be able to get letters of reference for probably every airline that's hiring. That is an enormous advantage.
Stay the course, my man. If you end up a nav make the best of it and be ready when you separate from AD. Many folks have done it and there's no reason you can't, too.

Best of fortune!!

 

[CCDiscoB]

Bssthound, I don't get it? Anyway, have we dodged SAMs together at Shakees Pizza? Or how about Taegu? I think I know who you are. Did you say to me once that you'd be flying for the airlines before I was? You were right.


ktulu34535, the commitments are not cumulative. But if you're a Nav for 4 years, then go to UPT you're in for 15, and you're a Major coming up on Lt Col. Now if you get passed over....that's the only way. You'd certainly wouldn't be the first. I know of two RF-4 WSOs that went to UPT and "burned the bridge."

 

[ktulu34535]

thanks

I didn't realize it was common at all, for navs to make the switch to the airlinesIf I had the chance to go UPT I would gladly serve out my time in ADSC. With 5 years left for a full 20 I might just go the five more.

If I don't get a slot on AD, I will probably go guard/reserves to supplement my income while working as an instructor, going to the regionals and then eventually the airlines.

What does a nav make in an average year in the guard/reserves? I guess that could mean a lot of things so specifically, if it were peacetime, wartime is a whole lot different.

If you do make the switch and are consequently higher in grade but behind your peers in experience does this have an impact on how long you would be flying before you were eventually put in a desk job?

I wouldn't imagine the Air Force would like to fly a Lt Col as much as a senior captain or major.

I wish I would have found out about guard/reserves before I was committed to the Air Force, but hey I'm happy where I am at as well.

CC: do you mean burning the bridge going to UPT or intentionally not getting promoted so you could get out.

BTW- do you have to fulfill your AD commitment before going to the guard or could you be a fulltime guard member and be considered AD? Probably not but just thought I'd ask

Thanks for all the great advice!

 

[bssthound]

CCDB,
I don't think we know each other. All I meant by the dodging your "ilk" was every so often getting a good look at the business end of an Eagle in the MOA. That's not the best way to word it so I did edit the post. Check your PMs

ktulu34535,
There are people full-time in the guard on Active Duty status. They are called "AGR," for Active Guard/Reserve. For the sake of brevity I'll refer to the Guard & Reserve as Reserve Forces.

As far as income for an average year in the Reserve Forces it depends on how much you work. You could do the bare minimum, which comes out to Unit Training Assembly (UTA) weekend, 48 Additional Flight Training Periods (AFTPs), and your two weeks annual tour and make about $20k a year, depending on your rank/time in grade. There are usually opportunities to work extra. There are different ways to get paid but usually it's done on active duty status. Those active duty days are referred to as "man days." I made about $50k a year as a bum before going to ASA. The downside is I missed a Super Bowl to fly a winter storm mission (12 hours of straight and level), was gone on a lot of TDYs other folks didn't want, and changed pubs, pulled night SOF, etc. Hey, it ain't a bad way to make a livin', though. I just realized I'm NOT sitting over in the sandbox so I better just shut my piehole since I really ain't got nothin' to bitch about.

Once again, best of luck. Any questions you have just post here or PM me. If I know anything about it I'll answer.

 

[Tweetdrvr]

This Former EWO's regrets

K,

I went on active duty with a nav slot then found my self pilot qual on my last physical. The ROTC det said there was nothing they could do for me and to go be a good officer and nav and that I should get my shot. During the Reagan buildup before the budget cuts and peace dividend, about 80 navs a year were getting to UPT. Following Desert Storm, the first selection board that I would have been eligible for only took 10 navs. I had already lucked into a slot with my hometown ANG unit.

Unless you can find a reserve component UPT slot before you are too far down the road to being an AD officer, I would say go to Nav trng, and fight to be the best and get the F-15E back-seat, 2nd choice B-1, 3rd choice probably C-130s, and go EWO only if it gives you the chance to get the 15E or the B-1.

Thanks to the pilot shortage (self created by the McPeak era) lots of Navs are getting the shot at UPT these days. It seems like an average of 1.5 per class right now at our base, and we run 15 classes per year. If you do the math on that counting the 3 AF bases, excluding ENJJPT, and counting P-cola, it works out to conservative estimate of @ 75 per year. It seems like Navs are getting selected for UPT about 2 years out of Nav school and getting their pilot wings about 4 yrs after finishing Nav training. Service commitments get superseded they don't add up. So if you get to UPT, you are committed to about the 15 year point.

Just so you know, the so called experts say the 15 year point is the break even point on airlines vs 20 yr retirement. If you separate at 15 years and forego your pension, and if it takes you almost a year to get a major airline job, you will have earned at age 60, the same $$ as a person who stayed for a 20 retirement, then got out and took a year to get the same major airline job. This factors in the first 3 years of low pay that it takes you to reach what you were earning as 15 year major, and includes taking the current bonus as 10 year captains to stay until 20 years. This doesn't include going to the Guard/Reserve and the $$ you earn while you are a regular participant and the retirment check that you start drawing at age 60. So if you get an active duty slot to UPT after Nav training, you are breaking even on lifetime earnings if you get out at the 15 year point, and may be a little ahead if you can get a reserve job and an airline job right when you get out.

A little clarification on the Reserve assignment system. You can be assigned to a reserve unit as a member of the active air force. You still belong to active duty, they pay you, and you get another assignment at the end of your 3-4 years, unless you are separating from that assignment. Right now the 130 pilot system is a little over on new pilots, so guys from Corpus T-44 track are getting this good deal as their first assignment. You can go to the reserves early, but it comes at a price. This process is called Palace Chase. You agree to extend your commitment by some multiple, but serve it in the reserves. This is because you are no longer considered a full time servant and they want to get something close to the same amount of productivity out of you. Right now, if pilots can get released, the commitment is tripled. (It might be double for Navs) So if a pilot gets out 3 yrs early, he/she now must serve 9 more years in the reserves.

There are three types of slots in the ANG/Reserve: AGR, ART, and Traditional Reserve. AGRs are on active duty orders and are basically the same as regular air force. They are just getting paid by the reserves, and almost never get PCS'd and earn retirement the same as the active duty. ART (Air Reserve Technicians) are civil servants on the GS pay scale. Both of these don't come easy to someone walking into the unit just off active duty or straight out of flight school. Usually they go to people who have been around a while. These people are there everyday; and run the unit, take care of training requirements, and get airline guys recurrent when they have been away on vacation or at their real jobs for long periods of time. Everyone else is called a traditional reservist. These are the often mislabeled "weekend warriors." You only get paid when you work. I won't go into the pay system because that alone is a separate novel. I will say as an aircrew in this busy world where the reserve component makes up over 40% of the airlift/tanker force, you can make plenty of $$ doing this and not have another job. This is called "bumming" in the guard and "troughing" in the reserves. Budget plan for 50% of what an active duty person at your paygrade earns, and expect to earn 75%.

If you ever have to choose, try to get into an Air Guard Unit over the Reserves. The pay systems are identical, but it just seems like the ANG is a little easier to squeeze for $$ as a bum and is a lot more laid back.

If you don't get to UPT for the active duty, here is a way to keep your dream alive.

Between deployments and on leave, fly all you can. Get your CFI, II, and MEI so that you stop renting planes (If it flies, f---s, or floats, it is cheaper to rent). It is better when people pay you to fly.

Try to make your second assignment someplace with good flying weather and a strong civilian market, so that you can build hours and if you are really good, make it close to several ANG/Reserve units that you would like to visit for post AF employment. Nav school teaching jobs at P-cola, or Randolph give you lots of free time with no deployments.

Try to Palace Chase or get out at end of your Nav commitment and go to the ANG/AFRES as a Nav. Try to get a UPT slot from the ANG/Reserve if you still meet the age requirements. If you don't get a UPT slot, the $$ you earn as guard bum/reserve trougher will continue to support your flying habit. C-130 units are your best bet for continued employment as a nav. Most ANG units fly the newer H models and will likely require navs for at least 15 more yrs. If you are over the age limit when getting out and still want a shot a being a military pilot, when shopping for 130 units, look for units with the older 1978-86 model 130s and keep your ear to wall about potential upgrades to the so called "X model" or converting to the J-model. These units that go thru this conversion get age waivers to send Navs to UPT up to age 36. I have seen guys make Major at UPT and one guy going back to pin on Lt Col after graduation at their ANG units. One guy showed up that graduated Nav school from Mather after I did and I finished UPT 9 years ago. The 141 is dead, and the 135s are going thru that avionics upgrade that eliminates the nav position. Yes, they will take a 15E/B-1 WSO to a 130 reserve sqdn. As a 5 year captain, I made about 30K/yr after tax and counting per diem from TDYs that I managed to save as a bum.

Go to someplace like ComAir Academy to get a shoe in the door with the regionals while trying for UPT with the reserve component. You might get lucky and go to UPT as a regional pilot and go back to your employer after two years of mil leave at a much higher seniority number and be an AF pilot to boot.

I missed the hiring market for lack of PIC time. I thought being a mil pilot was enough. Thanks to a backlog of pilots at my ANG unit, the upgrade line was a little slow. If I had it to do over, I would have gotten my CFI ASAP after UPT and gone to ComAir to teach and hopefully would at least be an RJ Captain now. I know 3 Navs who got out when I did in 92 and did not go to UPT, one did ComAir, two did some flight instructing and various other things, but they all still have jobs at big companies today (not UAL, or AA) and are not in any danger of furlough unless something else bad happens to the economy. They still fly as Navs for the guard because of the camaraderie and to keep their mil pensions alive and to have second income potential for strike/furlough insurance.

To not sound bitter, I must say, that I love my current flying job. Flight Instructing for the military has its own set of rewards. I'd much rather be doing this than handing out sacks of flour to starving refugees in a 3rd world craphole who will rob/shoot you and burn an effigy of the president when they get their strength back. Helping people realize their dreams of becoming pilots in the AF is a very rewarding job.

Good Luck, hope this helps you.

 

[Avi8er10]

bssthound,

You said you are a member of the 53rd WRS? Could you give me some more info about your life style in that unit? Does it differ from being a Nav in anyother airlift wing? Do you do only weather related missions or do you also do airlift missions? Are you not deployed because of your squadrons mission or for other reasons? Does the 53rd WRS offer many Nav slots a year? Also, do you commute to your domicile for ASA, and if so how does that conflict with working with the reserves? Sorry for so many questions.

Thanks for the info.

-Andy