Advice Please: Airtran, or Cathay

[mar]

No strike; no scab

Anybody who knows me knows that I'm 100% union oriented.

But.

If there's no strike then it's impossible to be a scab.

I understand it's illegal to strike in Hong Kong.

I'm sympathetic to the 49ers but why inflame an already volatile issue with rhetoric.

The problem isn't our collegues. The problem is management playing dirty pool.

If someone is so inclined to take a job at CX--then, OK--they'll subject themselves to the same abuse, but holding out on a job offer isn't going to affect any (ANY!) change in CX management.

Keep things in perspective.

By the way, I've been following the latest at CX for about a year so I don't qualify as uninformed. I may be foolish but I'm sensitive to labor issues.

Let's loose the rhetoric.

 

[Ty Webb]

Sorry, Chief, but you can't have it both ways. You can't claim to be "100% Union oriented" and advocate working for a non-union subsidiary the company starts to get around their labor contract.

1) When a Company sets up another entity in an attempt to thwart a labor agreement, and you go to work for them, it is wrong, and to me, it is scabbing. Ask the guys at Atlas how they feel about your interpretation.

2) Not working for a Company like that DOES make a difference. We don't live in a vacuum. What you do affects the rest of our industry. When a Company starts IOE, and there are a large number of "no-shows", believe me, it does send a message.

Why do you think PFT disappeared at ASA, ACA, Comair, COEX, etc? Because pilots voted with their feet. They weren't taking the bait anymore, and I give these boards a lot of the credit- show people the whole picture, and, given a choice, most will do the right thing.

 

[FoxHunter]

Cathay at one time was probably the best airline in the world to work for with the exception of the US Majors. Only Brits, Aussies, Kiwis need apply, with preferance going to the Royal Navy. In around 1995 they did hire for their freighters in a way that circumvented the seniority rights of Cathay pilots. The real shame is that the vehicle used to hire was UPAS which at the time was owned by ALPA.

 

[Tref]

Mar,

If you've been following things for a year now, then maybe you've noticed that they now refer to the number of pilots that Cathay Pacific fired as 51. It used to be 52. Wanna know why? 'Cause one guy jumped off his balcony about a week after the union lost it's court case against Cathay in a corrupt court.

They were trying to get the jobs back for the pilots who were unjustly fired. How would you like to be one of the other 51 guys when Joe Schmoe from America comes to fly the freighters. "Hey guys, wanna get a beer?" I don't think so.

If IFALPA puts a recruitment ban on a carrier and you take a job there, then you're a scab. It's that simple. Shouldn't a 100% union guy listen to the International Federation of Airline Pilot's Associations?

 

[mar]

Speaking generally

Ty Webb, you wrote: "Sorry, Chief, but you can't have it both ways. You can't claim to be "100% Union oriented" and advocate working for a non-union subsidiary the company starts to get around their labor contract."

I wasn't really being that specific. I was just speaking in general terms about working at Cathay.

I understand there's bad blood between some of the guys on the passenger side and some on the freighter side.

I also understand the entire Atlas/AACS mess.

I have friends at both Cathay and Atlas.

You're not gonna like this but I've been encouraged to apply to both companies.

As for your second point, Ty, I agree. No-shows would make a difference. But the suits have us by the short hairs again, don't they?

The job market sucks (though getting better, it's still not great) and CX management appears to be hell bent on converting their pilots' careers to some sort of second-rate job.

It's shameful. I don't know how they sleep at night.

Tref: I'm quite aware of the 52 and the demise of one. I was just trying to use a consistent figure.

Just to clear up a point--I'm *not* a member of any union. I have been in the past. I only claimed to be 'union oriented' and 'sensitive to labor issues'.

My parting shot is to say that Cathay and Atlas managements are examples of ruthless managers who will exploit legal loopholes to sustain continuous abuse of their pilots.

But in neither case is there scabbing going on.

My deepest sympathies are for the Cathay crews who were sold a bill of goods. I know it's easy to say, Vote with your feet--and that's exactly what's happening at Atlas (but, who cares? because Atlas management will probably sell the whole burrito and make their millions).

Cathay crews, on the other hand, have taken their families to Hong Kong at great financial and emotional cost. They have much more invested in the outcome than any Atlas pilot does.

I wish Cathay could strike. I wish someone would do something about how business is conducted in Hong Kong.

If Cathay or Atlas offered me a job today I would have serious reservations about accepting it. But you'd have to know who I worked for in the past to appreciate why I would even consider such a move.

Out of the frying pan and into the fire, maybe, but definitely a means to an end.

Best wishes to Cathay and Atlas crews.

 

[Freight Dog]

If IFALPA puts on a recruitment ban in effect for an airline, then if you go there, you are a GLOBAL scab. Simple... there's a labor beef going on... the management is firing pilots and completely abrogating their contract. IFALPA puts on a recruitment ban to force CX management to honor their commitments to their own pilots. Those guys have a horrible deal over there, and by slapping the recruitment ban, IFALPA is trying to prevent the management from firing everyone and replacing them with other pilots. By accepting employment at CX, you would in effect be condoning management's action over there and stealing a job from a CX pilot which is a textbook definition of a SCAB. However, you would be a scab on a global scale, not just here...

If you think U.S. scabs have it tough, watch what happens to a global scab.

 

[mar]

Pretty simple, huh?

First of all, I ain't going nowhere. I haven't been interviewed; I haven't been made any offers; nothing.

So just relax.

Second, I happen to think it's a little more complicated (e.g. CX pilots have accepted upgrades after the firings).

All of this is archived in Fragrant Harbour on pprune.org so I'm not too excited about rehashing it here.

But let's try to get a real definition of what a scab is. A scab is someone who crosses a picket line--not someone who 'steals' a job.

Striking workers elect to go on strike. They don't elect to be robbed.

What happened to the fired pilots (the 52) was completely wrong--morally and ethically--but it was *legal* in Hong Kong.

That's not 'struck work', I'm not an ALPA member and if I took the job I wouldn't be a scab.

I might be a lot of things but I wouldn't be a scab until I crossed a picket line that union members chose to walk.

Get it?

 

[Tref]

Mar,

If taking a job with an airline that has an IFALPA recruitment ban placed against it is not scabbing, then please explain to me what a recruitment ban is for.

I understand that it might be tempting when the pilot job market sucks so bad. Trust me, I know. I've been laid off for four and a half months now and I've just accepted a non-flying job to pay the bills.

But taking a job at CX is not going to make things better for you. I guarantee that you would hate life there and by ignoring the recruitment ban you WILL be labelled a scab, regardless of your own ideas on the subject. I would even suggest that such a person's safety might be at risk from people who feel very strongly about this.

And it's not just the 51 who feel strongly about it. The rest of the pilots have been paying a contribution from their paychecks to help the guys who were fired. Don't try and imagine that they're not severly pi$$ed off about things too.

So if you do go to CX, you will hate it and want to quit. But when you quit and come back to the US, you will be a scab and will have a hard time finding work. If you do find a flying job, others will find out about your scabbing and make things so miserable that you'll want to quit anyways.

Then where will you be? Looking for a new career? Might as well save yourself the agony and enrol in "The Big Rig Career Academy" now.

I think this might be my last post on this thread, 'cause if it's not sinking in by now, then it might never. If you do find yourself scabbing in the Fragrant Harbour then you better watch your back, 'cause I can't imagine a worse place to be beaten to a pulp than some stinking, dirty back alley in Wanchai. And if you do come back to the US, you won't be welcome on my flight deck.

 

[Boeingman]

If you think U.S. scabs have it tough,

Like at CAL? LOL with that statement.

When we walked, I used to be as bitter and angry at those who crossed like some protray themselves on this board.

The hardest lesson I learned was that outside of a minority of people, and they were all pilots, nobody really gave a fecal matter about scabs or honoring a picket line. Especially employers.

 

[Mad Dog driver]

You can read all about it at:

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?threadid=51785&perpage=15&pagenumber=1

and

http://bbs.hkalpa.org/public/default.htm

Cheers.