Advice Please: Airtran, or Cathay

[Tref]

Freight Dog,

I deleted the message after I saw yours. I'm sure you can understand why I freaked out. It looked like Cardinal was refering to me. Maybe he can be more specific next time. My apologies to Cardinal if he managed to read my message before I could delete it.

See ya,
Tref

 

[TurboS7]

That is right, this Eastern scab is telling you to stay away from the complete thing. They are just looking for "outsiders" to solve the internal problems at what will be your expense. When they don't need you anymore they will fire you for dropping peanuts on the flight deck and you will be out the door right now. You will have a type rating and time but all you will do with it is become a Hadj expert and see parts of the world that you didn't know existed. Being an ALPA scab is one thing, being a full-fledged ICAO SUPER SCAB even I wouldn't want to wish that on anyone. Don't go and make my being a scab something worth having. By the way the head of the APA MEC for AA told me to go to EAL as they had an axe to grind with ALPA. Like an idiot I gave it a go with the hope that EAL would merge with CO, or that the rEAL(I like that)pilot's would come back and I would be out on the street but at least with an EAL senority number. Neither happened and I was on a roller-coaster trying to pay the bills at home and I really had no choice but to carry on. EAL was a great airline and all the guys that came back and saved the thing were great. I have nothing but high respect for the guys that didn't walk, for the guys that walked and never came back, and for the guys that came back after walking the picket line. My sincere hope during the complete thing was that the mess would be settled everything would return to normal and I would fade into the sunset. That never happened(I even told a guy that on the picket line, three weeks later he came back flying) the whole thing became a mess after 6 weeks and ALPA knew that had made a wrong decision and everyone lost. As I have tried to say in past post there is a lot to learn from the whole thing if you guys would just stop name calling and listen. STAY AWAY FROM CATHY AND STICK WITH AIRTRAN AND JOE. A BETTER PLACE FOR YOU AND YOUR FAMILY IF YOU HAVE ONE.

 

[UALU30]

"By the way the head of the APA MEC for AA told me to go to EAL as they had an axe to grind with ALPA."

They always have a story. Pinguin, do NOT ruin your life by becoming one of these worthless SCABs with one of your own stories: "I just didn't know about that recruitment ban, blah blah blah blah blah blah."

There are still SCABs at AirTran, but a lot of good honest guys. This should be a no-brainer.

A SCAB is NEVER forgotten!

 

[Humblepilot]

Freight Division

I have a friend at the Freight Division and had my resume dropped there, from my understanding the firing and the other problems are on the passenger side (which by the way I don't make light of). So if you go fly freight you are a scab? Listen I am 2nd generation union guy and I hate scabs, but I don't see going and flying freight as "scabbing" its not struck work.

Anyone agree or disagree?

Frats,
Humble

 

[Tref]

It's a very screwed up divide and conquer game that they are playing with the freighter side. Back around 1996 they split the freighter side off and tried to tell everyone it was a separate company. Hmmm, they used Cathay planes, Cathay sims and instructors, Cathay office space and used the cargo space on the Cathay passenger planes for their balance sheets (even though the fuel costs still counted against the passenger side.)

See what they did was hire Captains and F/Os off the street, even though there were 9 year F/Os waiting for upgrades. (Historically Cathay pilots flew both the passenger and the cargo side of the operation depending on the pattern assignment.) By hiring new freighter pilots off the street they created in effect a C scale. (Which is a bit misleading because pretty much every pilot at CX has a separate deal based on date and country of hire, but the new freighter pay was an all time low.)

This allowed them to reduce costs on the freighter side. And by using the passenger cargo capacity to boost the freighter side revenues and drag down the passenger side because of the lost revenues and increased fuel costs, they made it appear as though the passenger side was doing poorly.

When the Asian economy stumbled in '98 they also wrote off all of the costs of moving to the new airport and shortened the depreciation schedule of all of their aircraft by five years and applied all of those costs in that fiscal year. It made it look like CX had lost money, when in fact they had actually made a profit.

Then of course, they came after the pilots for concessions and tried to split up the union into A scalers and B scalers. (Anyone hired after April '93 NEVER goes onto the A scale.) They told the A scalers to take huge pay cuts or they would be fired and they told the B scalers to stay out of it because it was an A scale issue.

In 1999 they had supposedly agreed to reintegrate the freighters, but because you can't trust CX management any farther than you can kick them, I doubt much has happened.

People were calling the freighter guys scabs way back in '96-'97 and I disagreed, because as you say, it was not struck work. But here's the rub... In Hong Kong there are virtually no labour laws and there is no right to strike. At that time there was no recruitment ban on Cathay Pacific and they were being called scabs, rightly or wrongly, I don't really know. But now that the ban is in effect I think that it would apply equally to both sides of the operation, especially since they are supposedly being reintegrated.

I would say anyone going to any part of CX right now is not only a scab, but is also either incredibly uninformed or incredibly foolish.

Take care and tread carefully,
Tref

 

[mar]

No strike; no scab

Anybody who knows me knows that I'm 100% union oriented.

But.

If there's no strike then it's impossible to be a scab.

I understand it's illegal to strike in Hong Kong.

I'm sympathetic to the 49ers but why inflame an already volatile issue with rhetoric.

The problem isn't our collegues. The problem is management playing dirty pool.

If someone is so inclined to take a job at CX--then, OK--they'll subject themselves to the same abuse, but holding out on a job offer isn't going to affect any (ANY!) change in CX management.

Keep things in perspective.

By the way, I've been following the latest at CX for about a year so I don't qualify as uninformed. I may be foolish but I'm sensitive to labor issues.

Let's loose the rhetoric.

 

[Ty Webb]

Sorry, Chief, but you can't have it both ways. You can't claim to be "100% Union oriented" and advocate working for a non-union subsidiary the company starts to get around their labor contract.

1) When a Company sets up another entity in an attempt to thwart a labor agreement, and you go to work for them, it is wrong, and to me, it is scabbing. Ask the guys at Atlas how they feel about your interpretation.

2) Not working for a Company like that DOES make a difference. We don't live in a vacuum. What you do affects the rest of our industry. When a Company starts IOE, and there are a large number of "no-shows", believe me, it does send a message.

Why do you think PFT disappeared at ASA, ACA, Comair, COEX, etc? Because pilots voted with their feet. They weren't taking the bait anymore, and I give these boards a lot of the credit- show people the whole picture, and, given a choice, most will do the right thing.

 

[FoxHunter]

Cathay at one time was probably the best airline in the world to work for with the exception of the US Majors. Only Brits, Aussies, Kiwis need apply, with preferance going to the Royal Navy. In around 1995 they did hire for their freighters in a way that circumvented the seniority rights of Cathay pilots. The real shame is that the vehicle used to hire was UPAS which at the time was owned by ALPA.

 

[Tref]

Mar,

If you've been following things for a year now, then maybe you've noticed that they now refer to the number of pilots that Cathay Pacific fired as 51. It used to be 52. Wanna know why? 'Cause one guy jumped off his balcony about a week after the union lost it's court case against Cathay in a corrupt court.

They were trying to get the jobs back for the pilots who were unjustly fired. How would you like to be one of the other 51 guys when Joe Schmoe from America comes to fly the freighters. "Hey guys, wanna get a beer?" I don't think so.

If IFALPA puts a recruitment ban on a carrier and you take a job there, then you're a scab. It's that simple. Shouldn't a 100% union guy listen to the International Federation of Airline Pilot's Associations?

 

[mar]

Speaking generally

Ty Webb, you wrote: "Sorry, Chief, but you can't have it both ways. You can't claim to be "100% Union oriented" and advocate working for a non-union subsidiary the company starts to get around their labor contract."

I wasn't really being that specific. I was just speaking in general terms about working at Cathay.

I understand there's bad blood between some of the guys on the passenger side and some on the freighter side.

I also understand the entire Atlas/AACS mess.

I have friends at both Cathay and Atlas.

You're not gonna like this but I've been encouraged to apply to both companies.

As for your second point, Ty, I agree. No-shows would make a difference. But the suits have us by the short hairs again, don't they?

The job market sucks (though getting better, it's still not great) and CX management appears to be hell bent on converting their pilots' careers to some sort of second-rate job.

It's shameful. I don't know how they sleep at night.

Tref: I'm quite aware of the 52 and the demise of one. I was just trying to use a consistent figure.

Just to clear up a point--I'm *not* a member of any union. I have been in the past. I only claimed to be 'union oriented' and 'sensitive to labor issues'.

My parting shot is to say that Cathay and Atlas managements are examples of ruthless managers who will exploit legal loopholes to sustain continuous abuse of their pilots.

But in neither case is there scabbing going on.

My deepest sympathies are for the Cathay crews who were sold a bill of goods. I know it's easy to say, Vote with your feet--and that's exactly what's happening at Atlas (but, who cares? because Atlas management will probably sell the whole burrito and make their millions).

Cathay crews, on the other hand, have taken their families to Hong Kong at great financial and emotional cost. They have much more invested in the outcome than any Atlas pilot does.

I wish Cathay could strike. I wish someone would do something about how business is conducted in Hong Kong.

If Cathay or Atlas offered me a job today I would have serious reservations about accepting it. But you'd have to know who I worked for in the past to appreciate why I would even consider such a move.

Out of the frying pan and into the fire, maybe, but definitely a means to an end.

Best wishes to Cathay and Atlas crews.

 

[Freight Dog]

If IFALPA puts on a recruitment ban in effect for an airline, then if you go there, you are a GLOBAL scab. Simple... there's a labor beef going on... the management is firing pilots and completely abrogating their contract. IFALPA puts on a recruitment ban to force CX management to honor their commitments to their own pilots. Those guys have a horrible deal over there, and by slapping the recruitment ban, IFALPA is trying to prevent the management from firing everyone and replacing them with other pilots. By accepting employment at CX, you would in effect be condoning management's action over there and stealing a job from a CX pilot which is a textbook definition of a SCAB. However, you would be a scab on a global scale, not just here...

If you think U.S. scabs have it tough, watch what happens to a global scab.

 

[mar]

Pretty simple, huh?

First of all, I ain't going nowhere. I haven't been interviewed; I haven't been made any offers; nothing.

So just relax.

Second, I happen to think it's a little more complicated (e.g. CX pilots have accepted upgrades after the firings).

All of this is archived in Fragrant Harbour on pprune.org so I'm not too excited about rehashing it here.

But let's try to get a real definition of what a scab is. A scab is someone who crosses a picket line--not someone who 'steals' a job.

Striking workers elect to go on strike. They don't elect to be robbed.

What happened to the fired pilots (the 52) was completely wrong--morally and ethically--but it was *legal* in Hong Kong.

That's not 'struck work', I'm not an ALPA member and if I took the job I wouldn't be a scab.

I might be a lot of things but I wouldn't be a scab until I crossed a picket line that union members chose to walk.

Get it?

 

[Tref]

Mar,

If taking a job with an airline that has an IFALPA recruitment ban placed against it is not scabbing, then please explain to me what a recruitment ban is for.

I understand that it might be tempting when the pilot job market sucks so bad. Trust me, I know. I've been laid off for four and a half months now and I've just accepted a non-flying job to pay the bills.

But taking a job at CX is not going to make things better for you. I guarantee that you would hate life there and by ignoring the recruitment ban you WILL be labelled a scab, regardless of your own ideas on the subject. I would even suggest that such a person's safety might be at risk from people who feel very strongly about this.

And it's not just the 51 who feel strongly about it. The rest of the pilots have been paying a contribution from their paychecks to help the guys who were fired. Don't try and imagine that they're not severly pi$$ed off about things too.

So if you do go to CX, you will hate it and want to quit. But when you quit and come back to the US, you will be a scab and will have a hard time finding work. If you do find a flying job, others will find out about your scabbing and make things so miserable that you'll want to quit anyways.

Then where will you be? Looking for a new career? Might as well save yourself the agony and enrol in "The Big Rig Career Academy" now.

I think this might be my last post on this thread, 'cause if it's not sinking in by now, then it might never. If you do find yourself scabbing in the Fragrant Harbour then you better watch your back, 'cause I can't imagine a worse place to be beaten to a pulp than some stinking, dirty back alley in Wanchai. And if you do come back to the US, you won't be welcome on my flight deck.

 

[Boeingman]

If you think U.S. scabs have it tough,

Like at CAL? LOL with that statement.

When we walked, I used to be as bitter and angry at those who crossed like some protray themselves on this board.

The hardest lesson I learned was that outside of a minority of people, and they were all pilots, nobody really gave a fecal matter about scabs or honoring a picket line. Especially employers.

 

[Mad Dog driver]

You can read all about it at:

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?threadid=51785&perpage=15&pagenumber=1

and

http://bbs.hkalpa.org/public/default.htm

Cheers.