Hello everyone, this is my first post on this site but i've been keeping up with the site for a bit now and so far its been a great help! Keep up the good work everyone! Well this might be a bit long but i'll explain my situation and hopefully i can get some advice while i can give a heads up to upcoming pilots at the college level. I have always dreamed of being a professional pilot and i hope to work for the majors in the some what near future. And im just trying to make the best decisions to get me there the quickest and the cheapest. So after highschool i figured it would be best to go to and aviation college. Anyway im now a freshman at Embry Riddle in daytona and started my Private pilot last semester (fall 02). And I should be done in about 2 weeks. The one thing i didnt realize is how expensive it was going to be. The total for my private is gonna cost me about $8500 which is out of this world. Plus the $26000 for tuition and room and board. Realizing that i couldnt continue with these expenses i had to do some research and make some decisions. The way riddle works the Aeronautical Science major (which is my major) is that once your enrolled with this major you must fly here at riddle with no exception. So i cant cut my flight costs by flying off campus without changing my major. Which brought around another question which was why dont i switch my major? Because from what i gather the airlines dont really care what your major is and then i could have something to fall back on if i couldnt keep my medical for some reason. (by the way i do presently have a 1st class medical). however another option would be to stick it out here since supposedly riddle has the best training, and just take out loans up my ass and pay them off for the rest of my life. I could also pick up a minor, and riddle does offer a dispatch program for the Aero Sci kids. Some of my questions are does it really matter if i get all my ratings here at riddle rather than some other flight school down the road? Also if i was to switch my major i dont know if i would stay here at Riddle, because i could easily go to a community college, work, and fly on my own and then come back to riddle maybe my junior or senior year and take all the top flight classes riddle offers. because that way i would get my bachelors from here and from what i hear, Embry Riddle is the golden seal in the airline. Is this really that true? will going out into the professional pilot field with a degree from Riddle really set my apart that much? And the other option i thought about which is the one im now acting on is going through the Air Force ROTC. This way im basically guarenteed at least 2 years of tuition paid plus the very likeyhood of getting the 3 yr scholarship. This also brings me to another branch in the road which would be to fly with the airforce and then have to stay with them for a min. of 12 yrs or i could just be commissioned as a 2nc lieutenant and due 4 yrs and get out. Not coming from a military family at all and not having any major desire to make a living with the military i think i would rather opt for the 4 yr deal. And during these 4 years i could also do some flight instructing on the side so by the time i decommission i would have my hours built and could hopefully go and start the beginning of my professional aviation career. well i think i have rambled quite enough and will stop for now, but ANY and i stress ANY info or advice would GREATLY be appreciated!! by the way if anyone wants to email me, my address is [email protected]! thanks again, Russ
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Advice on making career decisions
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jumppilot03
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decisions decisions
First off, if you knew that money was gong to be a factor in your traning and schooling, why in the world did you choose to go to the countries MOST expensive aviation school? There are many other accredited state schools out there that have good aviation programs for far less, and they offer a more diverse college lifestyle, where everyone is not a rich flyboy. Some of these schools even have girls. I attend one in the midwest that costs just over 3 large a year, which according to my calculations is 20 grand less than what you are paying at Riddle. I am sure flight costs are similar, but as for $8,500 for a PPL, thats highway robbery. If I were you I would transfer out of that program at the end of the school year. Read a new post on this site about "good aviation colleges" it may offer you some good alternatives. Depending on which ERAU campus you attend, you might not have to go far to find an alternative. Good luck with the training, and remember the quality of training has nothing to do with the name of the school.
First off, if you knew that money was gong to be a factor in your traning and schooling, why in the world did you choose to go to the countries MOST expensive aviation school? There are many other accredited state schools out there that have good aviation programs for far less, and they offer a more diverse college lifestyle, where everyone is not a rich flyboy. Some of these schools even have girls. I attend one in the midwest that costs just over 3 large a year, which according to my calculations is 20 grand less than what you are paying at Riddle. I am sure flight costs are similar, but as for $8,500 for a PPL, thats highway robbery. If I were you I would transfer out of that program at the end of the school year. Read a new post on this site about "good aviation colleges" it may offer you some good alternatives. Depending on which ERAU campus you attend, you might not have to go far to find an alternative. Good luck with the training, and remember the quality of training has nothing to do with the name of the school.
justApilot
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The name Embry Riddle means nothing to the airlines. They don't care where you went to school (aviation school or not), what your major was or where you got your flight time. There are hundreds of aviation schools across the country. There is a thread on here about best aviation schools, check it out. Also do an internet search on aviation schools you should get plenty of info that way. Myself, I attended a community college for 2 years. Got a job flying bizjets and then got my BS from Embry Riddle with there extended campus and distance learning (correspondence courses). I chose Riddle for the convenience ONLY. They have 4-5 off campus sites in LA and when I wasn't able to attend class I would sign up for the correspondence courses . I traveled with a laptop and my course material and did my studies on layovers and at the FBO's during my sit time. Good luck. Find yourself a good, inexpensive college and spend your money on flying and chasing the chicas. Good luck.
bobbysamd
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More Riddle
Maybe I can cut to the chase for you, Russ.
You have to fly at ERAU to earn an Aeronautical Science degree because your flight courses count as college credit. I feel that Riddle offers good flight training and I very much like the degree program. However, you could consider switching your major to Aeronautical Studies or Aviation Business Administration, etc. and fly elsewhere. That might be the best of all worlds for you.
The AF might be a good road to take if you can get a slot. The flight training is some of the best and a known quantity, as is the personal development training you get to become an officer. Maybe the personal development training may be more beneficial. In addition, military pilots go to the front of the line for job consideration at the majors. On the other hand, by the time you get out the majors may not be what we've all been brought up to believe they are.
Hope this helps. In any event, good luck with dealing with the Riddle Runaround.
Maybe I can cut to the chase for you, Russ.
You have to fly at ERAU to earn an Aeronautical Science degree because your flight courses count as college credit. I feel that Riddle offers good flight training and I very much like the degree program. However, you could consider switching your major to Aeronautical Studies or Aviation Business Administration, etc. and fly elsewhere. That might be the best of all worlds for you.
The AF might be a good road to take if you can get a slot. The flight training is some of the best and a known quantity, as is the personal development training you get to become an officer. Maybe the personal development training may be more beneficial. In addition, military pilots go to the front of the line for job consideration at the majors. On the other hand, by the time you get out the majors may not be what we've all been brought up to believe they are.
Hope this helps. In any event, good luck with dealing with the Riddle Runaround.
banned username 2
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Re: decisions decisions
Not everyone at ERAU is a "Rich Flyboy".... I for one came from a very middle class family of modest means... I did what I needed to get through ERAU financially.... I knew a lot of guys who were also from the same plight... There were some "Rich Kids" but most of them didn't make it throught the program... Obviously they didn't appreciate what Daddy was handing them...
I was very happy with my education and flight training at ERAU... Plus the networking and connections you make there are invaluable... At a local college you will not have such a wide network of people in the same field to draw from... Networking in extremely important in this field... and ERAU is sort of like a "brotherhood"... I actually got my first full time job Flight Instructing because I was an ERAU grad... there was another grad working there and when he heard I graduated ERAU I got an interview almost immediately.. and subsequently got hired...
And as far as girls.... well Daytona Beach has no shortage of women... Maybe not on campus but certainly in town... If I may be blunt... You can get a piece of ass just about anywhere, but a good education, flight training and a huge network of associates will only be from very selected places... 99% of the time a girl won't get you a job, but a job might get you a girl... Chicks dig guys who are employed!
Good luck!
jumppilot03 said:
Not everyone at ERAU is a "Rich Flyboy".... I for one came from a very middle class family of modest means... I did what I needed to get through ERAU financially.... I knew a lot of guys who were also from the same plight... There were some "Rich Kids" but most of them didn't make it throught the program... Obviously they didn't appreciate what Daddy was handing them...
I was very happy with my education and flight training at ERAU... Plus the networking and connections you make there are invaluable... At a local college you will not have such a wide network of people in the same field to draw from... Networking in extremely important in this field... and ERAU is sort of like a "brotherhood"... I actually got my first full time job Flight Instructing because I was an ERAU grad... there was another grad working there and when he heard I graduated ERAU I got an interview almost immediately.. and subsequently got hired...
And as far as girls.... well Daytona Beach has no shortage of women... Maybe not on campus but certainly in town... If I may be blunt... You can get a piece of ass just about anywhere, but a good education, flight training and a huge network of associates will only be from very selected places... 99% of the time a girl won't get you a job, but a job might get you a girl... Chicks dig guys who are employed!
Good luck!
justApilot
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pilotyip
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the real story
There is no future at the majors, they will redefine themselves into something different, so if you want an aviation career, start flying and start your career, Too much value is put on the value of 4 yr degree in aviation and it is misplaced. What do you want to do, become a pilot and get a flying job no matter what, or do you want to have a "life style" making lots of money, lots of days off, only work when he wants to by bidding lines he likes, and free travel all over? It makes me think of the pilot at meet at Air Inc in ATL in 2000 who was pursuing life style, before he had the hours for his first job. Any one reading this board can make it as a pilot provided the talent and desire are there and eventually make it to a point where they can live on what they make, it may not be a "major", but it might be a good charter operation, a good corporate job, a reginoal, or something involving flying airplanes. It is hard, it is lots of moves, you go where the next job is, it is living in flop houses with 4 other pilots and one bathroom down the hall, it is not buying any new underwear for one year, it is driving a car that you jump start from the battery you keep in the apt on a charger, it is being 100% subservient to your bosses wishes until you can move to your next job and he gives you a good recommendation, it is saying no to your brothers birthday party, it is saying no to being home a Christmas. Come to think about it, this sounds alot like being in the Navy, except for the underwear part. They made us get new stuff. You do not need a 4 yr degree to make it as a successful pilot, in fact you may get to the non "major" level of flying quicker without the time wasted in the pursuit of the 4 yr degree, you need a talent for flying, you need a most gracious personality that focuses on what you can give and not what you can take, and a goal is sight that you will pursue no matter what. Family, girl fiends (more than one night) , babies, do not count, they only get in the way. I have had more than one flight student, older guys starting flying in their late 40's early 50's, tell me they wished they had it all to do over again, they would gone into flying as soon as they could of, but Suzy (girl friend) wanted the house, the babies, the family lifestyle, and they thought there would be time later, but once the commitments come and you elect to honor them, there is no later, until all the kids have left home and you are semi free again. I know this post will probably bring out some different views, because it so politically incorrect, and besides I am semi management in a bottom feeder industry, so what would I know about an aviation career. But you ask, so here is my input from the prospective of 35 years in this business.
There is no future at the majors, they will redefine themselves into something different, so if you want an aviation career, start flying and start your career, Too much value is put on the value of 4 yr degree in aviation and it is misplaced. What do you want to do, become a pilot and get a flying job no matter what, or do you want to have a "life style" making lots of money, lots of days off, only work when he wants to by bidding lines he likes, and free travel all over? It makes me think of the pilot at meet at Air Inc in ATL in 2000 who was pursuing life style, before he had the hours for his first job. Any one reading this board can make it as a pilot provided the talent and desire are there and eventually make it to a point where they can live on what they make, it may not be a "major", but it might be a good charter operation, a good corporate job, a reginoal, or something involving flying airplanes. It is hard, it is lots of moves, you go where the next job is, it is living in flop houses with 4 other pilots and one bathroom down the hall, it is not buying any new underwear for one year, it is driving a car that you jump start from the battery you keep in the apt on a charger, it is being 100% subservient to your bosses wishes until you can move to your next job and he gives you a good recommendation, it is saying no to your brothers birthday party, it is saying no to being home a Christmas. Come to think about it, this sounds alot like being in the Navy, except for the underwear part. They made us get new stuff. You do not need a 4 yr degree to make it as a successful pilot, in fact you may get to the non "major" level of flying quicker without the time wasted in the pursuit of the 4 yr degree, you need a talent for flying, you need a most gracious personality that focuses on what you can give and not what you can take, and a goal is sight that you will pursue no matter what. Family, girl fiends (more than one night) , babies, do not count, they only get in the way. I have had more than one flight student, older guys starting flying in their late 40's early 50's, tell me they wished they had it all to do over again, they would gone into flying as soon as they could of, but Suzy (girl friend) wanted the house, the babies, the family lifestyle, and they thought there would be time later, but once the commitments come and you elect to honor them, there is no later, until all the kids have left home and you are semi free again. I know this post will probably bring out some different views, because it so politically incorrect, and besides I am semi management in a bottom feeder industry, so what would I know about an aviation career. But you ask, so here is my input from the prospective of 35 years in this business.
banned username 2
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Re: the real story
PilotYIP I realize you do not have a 4yr degree... not sure if you have any college for that matter but I don't know how anyone can say higher education is a waste of time... No matter what job one chooses to do...
I agree the Majors are "dead" for now and probably a long time... but this guy is 18 or 19... in 10 years things may be better and his goal of the "Majors" may once again be a reality... and at that point, if he doesn't have a 4 year degree he will be out of the game... As a matter of fact... a lot of large Corporate Flight Departments also require a 4 year college degree... No degree, no job (heck no interview for that matter)... simple as that...
Like you said girlfriends and such get in the way... well I know a lot of guys whose flying got in the way of their education... yeah they got the hours, but their "dream job" of the majors NEVER even called them, when guys with several thousands of hours less time got called and hired... That is a fact, I have seen it happen...
I know how you "think" the world should be... but what we "think" and what really is, is often two different things... The fact is that a 4 year degree doesn't make you a better stick... but it does give them another criteria to weed out people... and it is a criteria that IS used.... at the Majors and at many of the top Corporate Flight Departments across the country...
So my point is why limit yourself on the number of jobs that you have a realistic chance of getting? Without a college degree there is 99% change you will not work for a "Major"... ever... Do you really want to go into a game when 1/2 of the teams won't even look at you?
Lets look at one more aspect.... Now he is 31 years old and has 8,000 hours (instead of the 6,000 he would have had, if he went to college and got a 4 year degree)... Significance between 6,000 and 8,000 hours? Nil.... BUT Johnny goes to the doctor because he isn't feeling good.. well Johnny has a disqualifying heart condition... Johnny can't fly anymore... but he has a nice house (and large mortgage), a wife and 2 kids to feed... Well Johnny goes to look for a non-flying job... but to make anywhere close to the money he was making he has to get a job that requires a college degree... Johnny says "But I have 8,000 hours and I can fly an ILS down to minimums at 140 kts in a blizzard"... And the HR person says "And how does that apply to what we are looking for? This job requires a 4 year degree, which I see you don't have... I'm sorry, we don't have any openings for someone with your qualifications... Good luck..."
Hours aren't everything... and no one can guarantee you will fly to 60 or 65 or whenever... An education is something that stays with you a lifetime... it cannot be taken away and it can only help you.... Lets not encourage the future of America to take less education... lets encourage our future to be as smart, well-rounded and open-minded as possible... it will only make our future brighter...
According to the US Department of Education web site (Income Chart) for a 25 year old male with only a High School Diploma the Median income in 1999 was $33,184 the same person with a 4 year college degree was $52,985 a difference of $19,801 or a 59.7% increase in income over a high-school graduate...
The numbers don't lie... Knowledge is King....
pilotyip said:
PilotYIP I realize you do not have a 4yr degree... not sure if you have any college for that matter but I don't know how anyone can say higher education is a waste of time... No matter what job one chooses to do...
I agree the Majors are "dead" for now and probably a long time... but this guy is 18 or 19... in 10 years things may be better and his goal of the "Majors" may once again be a reality... and at that point, if he doesn't have a 4 year degree he will be out of the game... As a matter of fact... a lot of large Corporate Flight Departments also require a 4 year college degree... No degree, no job (heck no interview for that matter)... simple as that...
Like you said girlfriends and such get in the way... well I know a lot of guys whose flying got in the way of their education... yeah they got the hours, but their "dream job" of the majors NEVER even called them, when guys with several thousands of hours less time got called and hired... That is a fact, I have seen it happen...
I know how you "think" the world should be... but what we "think" and what really is, is often two different things... The fact is that a 4 year degree doesn't make you a better stick... but it does give them another criteria to weed out people... and it is a criteria that IS used.... at the Majors and at many of the top Corporate Flight Departments across the country...
So my point is why limit yourself on the number of jobs that you have a realistic chance of getting? Without a college degree there is 99% change you will not work for a "Major"... ever... Do you really want to go into a game when 1/2 of the teams won't even look at you?
Lets look at one more aspect.... Now he is 31 years old and has 8,000 hours (instead of the 6,000 he would have had, if he went to college and got a 4 year degree)... Significance between 6,000 and 8,000 hours? Nil.... BUT Johnny goes to the doctor because he isn't feeling good.. well Johnny has a disqualifying heart condition... Johnny can't fly anymore... but he has a nice house (and large mortgage), a wife and 2 kids to feed... Well Johnny goes to look for a non-flying job... but to make anywhere close to the money he was making he has to get a job that requires a college degree... Johnny says "But I have 8,000 hours and I can fly an ILS down to minimums at 140 kts in a blizzard"... And the HR person says "And how does that apply to what we are looking for? This job requires a 4 year degree, which I see you don't have... I'm sorry, we don't have any openings for someone with your qualifications... Good luck..."
Hours aren't everything... and no one can guarantee you will fly to 60 or 65 or whenever... An education is something that stays with you a lifetime... it cannot be taken away and it can only help you.... Lets not encourage the future of America to take less education... lets encourage our future to be as smart, well-rounded and open-minded as possible... it will only make our future brighter...
According to the US Department of Education web site (Income Chart) for a 25 year old male with only a High School Diploma the Median income in 1999 was $33,184 the same person with a 4 year college degree was $52,985 a difference of $19,801 or a 59.7% increase in income over a high-school graduate...
The numbers don't lie... Knowledge is King....
banned username 2
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Re: the real story
PilotYIP...
No offense intended, but I have a question...
You say it is important to get as many hours as possible as fast as possible... Well looking at your "35 years in the business" I can assume you didn't start before you were 18 (18 is the Commercial Pilot Certificate minimum age).. So on that deduction I can assume you are 53 years old (or older) and you have 11,550 hours of flight time... If I project out my current hours and my current hour accumulation rate (approx 540 hours per year) to your age (53) I will have somewhere around 17,200 hours.. that is 5,650 hours more and I "wasted" 4 years in college...
Of course I will be elgible for retirement at 52, so I might not be there at 53... all depends...
pilotyip said:
PilotYIP...
No offense intended, but I have a question...
You say it is important to get as many hours as possible as fast as possible... Well looking at your "35 years in the business" I can assume you didn't start before you were 18 (18 is the Commercial Pilot Certificate minimum age).. So on that deduction I can assume you are 53 years old (or older) and you have 11,550 hours of flight time... If I project out my current hours and my current hour accumulation rate (approx 540 hours per year) to your age (53) I will have somewhere around 17,200 hours.. that is 5,650 hours more and I "wasted" 4 years in college...
Of course I will be elgible for retirement at 52, so I might not be there at 53... all depends...
Purple Haze
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Russ,celi95 said:
Sounds like some good options. I agree with all ERAU posts above: Doesn't matter, but a good place to make contacts. I think your AFROTC option is interesting -- not a bad plan, but you may have a very difficult time accumulating many hours in your off-time. You may have less off-time than you anticipate, and you could end up overseas or on the road often. It would be a good way to pay for school without too long a commitment. Consider the gravity of signing on the dotted line -- this option carries a big price. If you are not willing to give it all for the duration of your commitment, look elsewhere.
Salty Dog
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Russ,
Don't go into the AF w/out being a pilot. If your goal is to be a pilot for the Majors - whatever that will look like by the time you get there - then everything you do should be working towards that goal. If you do just 4 non-flying years, you'll still have to get experience flying either instructing, cargo, etc. until you're competitive for the regionals, THEN fly for them until you get enough turbine PIC until you're competitive for the Majors. Even though those "competitive" times are moving targets based on the market, you're realistically looking at a similar number of years as your 12-year commitment to a flying job in the USAF.
The big difference is who will be paying for all that experience. Uncle Sugar will foot that bill in return for your service and you'll be ready for the Majors w/no bills to pay, a solid work history, and arguably the best flight training in the world.
If you're not afraid of major debt, you'll get to the majors sooner (again - most likely) if you stay the course at ERAU, go straight to a Regional, then fleet up to the majors when competitive. All at a time in your life when you're best able to live inexpensively and pay off the man. Rough guess right now in my humble estimation would be 8 years to the majors sticking it out at ERAU. Pay off any remaining debt at that point, and you've just bought yourself 4 more years at the top end of the wage scale before you retire. That's $800,000 if pilot wages remain constant, on average, as they have for the last 20 years of deregulated airline history.
Some may argue whether that can or will hold true, but you can never predict the future. Based on the best info today, the smart thing in my view would be to stick it out. I went the non-flying military route you're considering and you can see exactly how uncompetitive I am at age 35. (true, I stayed longer than 4, but the result is similar) I'll buy my ratings and flight time as soon as I can and see what the future holds. Not a great place to be now that I have two kids, three mortgages and two car payments.
Continue to work towards your goals. You'll be glad you did. Just another 2 cents from somebody who's getting there the long way around.
Don't go into the AF w/out being a pilot. If your goal is to be a pilot for the Majors - whatever that will look like by the time you get there - then everything you do should be working towards that goal. If you do just 4 non-flying years, you'll still have to get experience flying either instructing, cargo, etc. until you're competitive for the regionals, THEN fly for them until you get enough turbine PIC until you're competitive for the Majors. Even though those "competitive" times are moving targets based on the market, you're realistically looking at a similar number of years as your 12-year commitment to a flying job in the USAF.
The big difference is who will be paying for all that experience. Uncle Sugar will foot that bill in return for your service and you'll be ready for the Majors w/no bills to pay, a solid work history, and arguably the best flight training in the world.
If you're not afraid of major debt, you'll get to the majors sooner (again - most likely) if you stay the course at ERAU, go straight to a Regional, then fleet up to the majors when competitive. All at a time in your life when you're best able to live inexpensively and pay off the man. Rough guess right now in my humble estimation would be 8 years to the majors sticking it out at ERAU. Pay off any remaining debt at that point, and you've just bought yourself 4 more years at the top end of the wage scale before you retire. That's $800,000 if pilot wages remain constant, on average, as they have for the last 20 years of deregulated airline history.
Some may argue whether that can or will hold true, but you can never predict the future. Based on the best info today, the smart thing in my view would be to stick it out. I went the non-flying military route you're considering and you can see exactly how uncompetitive I am at age 35. (true, I stayed longer than 4, but the result is similar) I'll buy my ratings and flight time as soon as I can and see what the future holds. Not a great place to be now that I have two kids, three mortgages and two car payments.
Continue to work towards your goals. You'll be glad you did. Just another 2 cents from somebody who's getting there the long way around.
pilotyip
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I cannot provide much advise on the professional pilot side.. I finished my commercial in '01 and haven't pursued things beyond that due to the nature of the industry right now.. but I can tell you about the "fall back" option.
When I was first shopping around for colleges in my teens, all I could think about was going to UND or Riddle to get an aero. sci. degree and launch into flying. The costs were simply too high for a family of my means to support, and I decided to get an A.S. in engineering at a state school, and then transfer to Riddle to finish the BS.
What subsequently happened was interesting... I started flying at a part 61 school in college, where I ultimately worked/helped out (greatly reducing costs after my private was done), and ended up getting my BS in comp. engineering. All of this came in what I consider a very lucky string of events.. things working out in school, some very good role models that I was fortunate enough to work with on the aviation side, and a good economy when I graduated (2000). I wound up taking a job in the tech profession - which isn't exactly a rosy industry now either - but I've managed to keep a job that pays what I might make after flying professionally for 10 yrs or so.
Its NOT about money, don't get me wrong.. but pursuing this has allowed me to repay my debts in the most efficient manner (almost done!). How long I will stay in this field.. I don't know. My passion is still aviation and will always be. What I have learned from all of this over anything else is that diversification is key. Putting all of ones eggs into one basket is poor planning, and worse yet, you'll miss out on many key experiences that make life interesting... to be perfectly honest, I wish I had rounded myself out even more while in the academic environment.... an engineering degree and pilot license is pretty cool to have, but so is the study of social science, art, or whatever strikes your fancy.
Personally, after my collegiate experience and a few years in this industry, I'd like to one day run a business that would have me fly on the side - my own boss, own schedule, etc.. that's my dream anyways.
When I was first shopping around for colleges in my teens, all I could think about was going to UND or Riddle to get an aero. sci. degree and launch into flying. The costs were simply too high for a family of my means to support, and I decided to get an A.S. in engineering at a state school, and then transfer to Riddle to finish the BS.
What subsequently happened was interesting... I started flying at a part 61 school in college, where I ultimately worked/helped out (greatly reducing costs after my private was done), and ended up getting my BS in comp. engineering. All of this came in what I consider a very lucky string of events.. things working out in school, some very good role models that I was fortunate enough to work with on the aviation side, and a good economy when I graduated (2000). I wound up taking a job in the tech profession - which isn't exactly a rosy industry now either - but I've managed to keep a job that pays what I might make after flying professionally for 10 yrs or so.
Its NOT about money, don't get me wrong.. but pursuing this has allowed me to repay my debts in the most efficient manner (almost done!). How long I will stay in this field.. I don't know. My passion is still aviation and will always be. What I have learned from all of this over anything else is that diversification is key. Putting all of ones eggs into one basket is poor planning, and worse yet, you'll miss out on many key experiences that make life interesting... to be perfectly honest, I wish I had rounded myself out even more while in the academic environment.... an engineering degree and pilot license is pretty cool to have, but so is the study of social science, art, or whatever strikes your fancy.
Personally, after my collegiate experience and a few years in this industry, I'd like to one day run a business that would have me fly on the side - my own boss, own schedule, etc.. that's my dream anyways.
banned username 2
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"does it really matter if i get all my ratings here at riddle rather than some other flight school down the road?"
No, in the end, your flight experience is what matters....numbers of hours and quality of flying time.
"Embry Riddle is the golden seal in the airline. Is this really that true?"
No, I was actually asked during my UPS interview about my education at ERAU. The implication was that it wasn't a "real" degree. To be honest, I think the question was more of an attempt to see how I responded to intimidation, but the point was made by the interviewer that he wasn't impressed that I had a degree from Riddle.
Having a degree in the airline business is simply filling a box on the application. You can fill that box with a degree from ERAU or a non-aviation major....your choice.
"will going out into the professional pilot field with a degree from Riddle really set my apart that much?"
Not in my opinion...you might get lucky and be looking for a job at a place where the chief pilot was a riddle grad....that could give you an edge. There are so many other things that could come into play that I don't think it's worth staying at riddle just for the name. It could help you but at what price? Is it worth it? Not in my book.
Riddle is a good school and you'll get good training there. Is it worth the money? NOPE. Do people in the industry bow down to riddle grads? NOPE. Did I go to ERAU? YEP...class of 1982.
No, in the end, your flight experience is what matters....numbers of hours and quality of flying time.
"Embry Riddle is the golden seal in the airline. Is this really that true?"
No, I was actually asked during my UPS interview about my education at ERAU. The implication was that it wasn't a "real" degree. To be honest, I think the question was more of an attempt to see how I responded to intimidation, but the point was made by the interviewer that he wasn't impressed that I had a degree from Riddle.
Having a degree in the airline business is simply filling a box on the application. You can fill that box with a degree from ERAU or a non-aviation major....your choice.
"will going out into the professional pilot field with a degree from Riddle really set my apart that much?"
Not in my opinion...you might get lucky and be looking for a job at a place where the chief pilot was a riddle grad....that could give you an edge. There are so many other things that could come into play that I don't think it's worth staying at riddle just for the name. It could help you but at what price? Is it worth it? Not in my book.
Riddle is a good school and you'll get good training there. Is it worth the money? NOPE. Do people in the industry bow down to riddle grads? NOPE. Did I go to ERAU? YEP...class of 1982.
Thanks guys for all your opinions. Without out a doubt im going to continue my education, but the question is where. I decided i have the following options.
A) Stay here at ERAU with the AS major and keep taking loans out for school and flight and then graduate with about $120,000 in debt. But then i could possibly get a internship or get involved with ERAU's bridge program and get a job after graduating or CFI. or
B)Stay here at ERAU but drop the AS major and take up something like Aviation Business and fly off campus and still get a job after graduating and then pay off the loans. But have something else to fall back on
C) Do one of the above but go through AF ROTC and not have the loans, but then have a commitment. I know its hard to say, but if i committed for the 4 yrs, would i really have the time to CFI?
D) Go back home and work and attend the community college and do the distance learning program, and get all my rating at home as well as the BS from ERAU.
E)Go back and attend the state college and get a degree in something else as well as getting all my ratings and doing some CFI.
what do do you all think?
thanks again
russ
A) Stay here at ERAU with the AS major and keep taking loans out for school and flight and then graduate with about $120,000 in debt. But then i could possibly get a internship or get involved with ERAU's bridge program and get a job after graduating or CFI. or
B)Stay here at ERAU but drop the AS major and take up something like Aviation Business and fly off campus and still get a job after graduating and then pay off the loans. But have something else to fall back on
C) Do one of the above but go through AF ROTC and not have the loans, but then have a commitment. I know its hard to say, but if i committed for the 4 yrs, would i really have the time to CFI?
D) Go back home and work and attend the community college and do the distance learning program, and get all my rating at home as well as the BS from ERAU.
E)Go back and attend the state college and get a degree in something else as well as getting all my ratings and doing some CFI.
what do do you all think?
thanks again
russ
bobbysamd
Well-known member
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- Nov 26, 2001
- Posts
- 5,710
Stay at Riddle - if you can afford it
Yip wrote on 1/24/03 that he has a B.S. in Math and Physics from Michigan State and a Masters from Central Michigan U. Pretty decent educational quals. Not to mention his Navy flying experience (military) which trumps many of us civilian pukes in the eyes of H.R. I haven't quite understood his point of view about not getting the degree, except that he has stated repeatedly that he is just giving an alternate point of view. I'd still get the degree, in something. I love an Aeronautical Science degree but I'm not wed to it. As Falcon Capt. noted, 9000 hours of jet with no medical and no degree/fallback plan and a quarter will buy you a cup of coffee (or maybe a groundschool teaching job or sim instructor job if you thought to get your AGI-IGI).
I think a lot has to do with your pocketbook, Russ. I'd go for Riddle if you can afford it. If not, there are excellent and cost-effective alternatives at state or other colleges. If you go AF, your military flight time will give you an advantage in getting interviews. Airlines love military pilots, but military is still no guarantee.
My good friend and ERAU examinee Falcon Capt. and I had a discussion about corporate flying when he was in town a few months ago. He asked why I didn't consider it instead of beating my head against the wall pursuing regional flying. I've thought about it since then, and perhaps I should have. Great jobs paying great money, international flying experience, and great equipment. Back in my day, though, such jobs were hard to get and took years. I tried, briefly. In any event, as Falcon Capt. notes, corporate could have more potential than airline flying.
Hope these thoughts help. Once more, good luck with whatever you decide.
Yip wrote on 1/24/03 that he has a B.S. in Math and Physics from Michigan State and a Masters from Central Michigan U. Pretty decent educational quals. Not to mention his Navy flying experience (military) which trumps many of us civilian pukes in the eyes of H.R. I haven't quite understood his point of view about not getting the degree, except that he has stated repeatedly that he is just giving an alternate point of view. I'd still get the degree, in something. I love an Aeronautical Science degree but I'm not wed to it. As Falcon Capt. noted, 9000 hours of jet with no medical and no degree/fallback plan and a quarter will buy you a cup of coffee (or maybe a groundschool teaching job or sim instructor job if you thought to get your AGI-IGI).
I think a lot has to do with your pocketbook, Russ. I'd go for Riddle if you can afford it. If not, there are excellent and cost-effective alternatives at state or other colleges. If you go AF, your military flight time will give you an advantage in getting interviews. Airlines love military pilots, but military is still no guarantee.
My good friend and ERAU examinee Falcon Capt. and I had a discussion about corporate flying when he was in town a few months ago. He asked why I didn't consider it instead of beating my head against the wall pursuing regional flying. I've thought about it since then, and perhaps I should have. Great jobs paying great money, international flying experience, and great equipment. Back in my day, though, such jobs were hard to get and took years. I tried, briefly. In any event, as Falcon Capt. notes, corporate could have more potential than airline flying.
Hope these thoughts help. Once more, good luck with whatever you decide.
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Pilot YIP
If the guy has a better education than me....
Is ex-military, which should give him the first nod....
And is older than me....
Why is it I'm where I am and he's flying rubber dogcrap out of YIP?
Something doesn't add up....
If I learned one thing from the guy it's that I now agree that a degree isn't for everyone. I recently talked to buddy of mine who is in his mid 20's and wants to fly. He has no ambition above flight instructing or, at the most, flying for a regional. For him, a degree is a waste of time. He's been working at a 9.50 an hour job and making 15 an hour as a CFI is a big step up. I think, for him, a degree is unnecessary.
Ceil95...I vote for option E first and option D second. Of course, it's your life and you must do what you think is best.
If the guy has a better education than me....
Is ex-military, which should give him the first nod....
And is older than me....
Why is it I'm where I am and he's flying rubber dogcrap out of YIP?
Something doesn't add up....
If I learned one thing from the guy it's that I now agree that a degree isn't for everyone. I recently talked to buddy of mine who is in his mid 20's and wants to fly. He has no ambition above flight instructing or, at the most, flying for a regional. For him, a degree is a waste of time. He's been working at a 9.50 an hour job and making 15 an hour as a CFI is a big step up. I think, for him, a degree is unnecessary.
Ceil95...I vote for option E first and option D second. Of course, it's your life and you must do what you think is best.
Salty Dog
2 bells, no stinger
- Joined
- Dec 4, 2001
- Posts
- 152
I must respectfully disagree w/the sky is falling assessment of the future of Airline flying. There are still guys out there pushing the Big Iron around the sky for over $200k a year.
There are those who said the world will forever change when all those highly trained combat veterans coming back from WWII will flood the industry and no higher paying jobs will be around for many decades. Less than ten years later airlines were hiring off the street to train from PPL up.
Then in 1966 the same was said of returning Vietnam vets. It took longer, but hiring did start up again in the mid 70s.
Again when deregulation led to the alter ego start ups and Frank Lorenzos of the world, it was supposedly the end of the big airlines.
Now it's post 9/11 and the rise of LCCs like Southwest and Jet Blue along with fractionals.
Forgive my humble opinion, but I'm not buying the doom and gloom. It's a perfectly normal reaction, but being forgetful of history and extrapolating short term social eruptions into infinity doth not the future tell. People will forever need to go from one big city to another, and large airplanes will be the most economical way to get them there. Over the course of aviation history, pilot wages directly correlate to airline profitability. To assume the Majors will go the way of the dinosaur is to assume what? That everyone will be willing to shell out the cost of fractional ownership? That airline management will NEVER get it right again and turn a profit, not even for a little while? That Southwest and Jet Blue pilots will never ask for a pay raise even if they are the last big airlines standing? The American economy will never grow again? Come on.
Yes, pilot wages and hiring opportunities are taking a hit. Future flying may be more diversified between regionals, fractionals, air taxis, private ownership, whatever. It is not going to change the fundamentals that are even in these times putting thousands of chock full widebodies into the air with relatively well-compensated pilots at the helm.
Pilotyip, you may feel free to point to the price of gas in 1978 and say "the era of the automobile is over", but I'll continue to point to the Interstate system and say "there's no way it could be."
There are those who said the world will forever change when all those highly trained combat veterans coming back from WWII will flood the industry and no higher paying jobs will be around for many decades. Less than ten years later airlines were hiring off the street to train from PPL up.
Then in 1966 the same was said of returning Vietnam vets. It took longer, but hiring did start up again in the mid 70s.
Again when deregulation led to the alter ego start ups and Frank Lorenzos of the world, it was supposedly the end of the big airlines.
Now it's post 9/11 and the rise of LCCs like Southwest and Jet Blue along with fractionals.
Forgive my humble opinion, but I'm not buying the doom and gloom. It's a perfectly normal reaction, but being forgetful of history and extrapolating short term social eruptions into infinity doth not the future tell. People will forever need to go from one big city to another, and large airplanes will be the most economical way to get them there. Over the course of aviation history, pilot wages directly correlate to airline profitability. To assume the Majors will go the way of the dinosaur is to assume what? That everyone will be willing to shell out the cost of fractional ownership? That airline management will NEVER get it right again and turn a profit, not even for a little while? That Southwest and Jet Blue pilots will never ask for a pay raise even if they are the last big airlines standing? The American economy will never grow again? Come on.
Yes, pilot wages and hiring opportunities are taking a hit. Future flying may be more diversified between regionals, fractionals, air taxis, private ownership, whatever. It is not going to change the fundamentals that are even in these times putting thousands of chock full widebodies into the air with relatively well-compensated pilots at the helm.
Pilotyip, you may feel free to point to the price of gas in 1978 and say "the era of the automobile is over", but I'll continue to point to the Interstate system and say "there's no way it could be."
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