Advice on 5 - 6 seat GA plane

[Phoenix45]

I am looking to buy a 5 or six seater GA airplane. My family includes 3 small boys. At least small for now. I currently have my PPL and IFR, working on Multi. I have been looking at Cessna 336/337, Beech 35, and Piper Cherokee 6/Lance primarily. Was wondering if anyone could share some of the problems and benefits of these, or suggest a plane I might be missing on my list. Basically any help or suggestions would be welcome. I am looking to spend between $60-100k on purchase.

 

[Cutlass1287]

5-6 seat, or 5-6 person?

 

[FL000]

The only single-6's I have flown were the A-36 and the Saratoga. Although I like the Piper, it didn't hold a candle to the Bonanza. The Bonanza was much more powerful in the climb, and more stable altogether, especially at high speed on the ground. The Saratoga had a weird, unstable feel on the takeoff roll and landing rollout.

 

[Phoenix45]

Clarification

Sorry if I wan't clear in initial post. I am looking for a plane which will be able to transport me and my wife, along with 3 boys (2 - 6 yrs) also with some room for baggage. Probably at least 150lbs. I am not too concerned with speed or altitude. Rather I am looking for something on the economical side (upkeep, maintenance, and insurance). I am just looking to see what others have to say on 5 - 6 person GA airplanes. Also to see if there are any decent planes I haven't came across in my inquiries. This will be my first purchase of a plane. I am not too sure of all the details I need to look at, although I am learning.
I have also considered a possible lease-back for charter (not training), or a possible partnership. I am out of CRQ in San Diego County, not much in the way of sharing or leasing at CRQ. Thanks

 

[seethru]

I've been flying a Saratoga for a little over 2 years and it is a real stable platform and has been very reliable. The Bonanza, too, is a fine plane, but in my opinion is relatively high priced compared to other singles in its class.

Any of the six seaters will fit your bill, however as your kids grow watch out for weight. Even though they have six seats in them, you can't fill those seats, bring lots of luggage, and top the tanks. Useful load can be limited.

One major hangup I have with the Saratoga is no de-icing. I've looked. It's not offered from the factory, and nobody out there installs boots or TKS aftermarket for this model. I fly in the NW, and we could really use the de-icing.

Good luck.

 

[bigD]

With your flight time, and the fact that your kids aren't going to stay the size they are now, I'd suggest a Cherokee Six. It'll be awhile before you're going to be insurable in something like a Bonanza.

 

[KeroseneSnorter]

I flew a Cherokee six years back for a freight outfit. It is a true six seater. Comes in 260 hp and 300 hp varients, depending on the year. If you can pack it in the door it will haul it. Good range. And since it is fixed gear and not a retract, it will be easier on insurance for a lower time pilot. The retract version is the Lance (Saratoga for late models)

The down side? It flies like a school bus, and is lacking in the fit and finish and luxury department.

The A36 is much better flying and is top quality. Kind of like the Mercedes to the Pipers Chevy. The 36 does have some load limitations that the six does not, but it will also run about 50 knots faster.

Down side? Price and insurance. Neither is cheap for a Bonanza.

Other option might be a 206. An overgrown 182.


It is doubtful you will find a decent 6 place twin for anything close to 60 to 100k. Anything at that price turning two motors with 6 seats and newer than 1965 is probably really ragged out. ie. ex freight B58 with a zillion hours on it.

If you don't mind an older bird, you can probably pick up a nice early to mid sixties Aztec for that kind of money...maybe.

EDIT: I just looked at your times listed, stay away from a twin right now until you get some more time. The insurance will roast you, if you do manage to find a company that will cover you.

 

[Jeff Helgeson]

I second that motion. Do we a have a querom?

With your flight time, and the fact that your kids aren't going to stay the size they are now, I'd suggest a Cherokee Six. It'll be awhile before you're going to be insurable in something like a Bonanza.

Cherokee Six: If you can get the 300 hp, that would be a bonus. It is a little slower than the Lance, but you won't have the expense of the RG for the annual and the insurance.

C206: would be my second choice for what you would like to do.

Fly safe, stay within your skill level.

 

[FL000]

C206: would be my second choice for what you would like to do.

Oops...forgot about that one. What a great plane. I flew the turbocharged version fresh out of the factory. Great performance full of people and fuel, in addition to the customary stable Cessna platform. Awesome plane.

 

[Jeff Helgeson]

A few general tips

Oops...forgot about that one. What a great plane. I flew the turbocharged version fresh out of the factory. Great performance full of people and fuel, in addition to the customary stable Cessna platform. Awesome plane.

Although I like high performance goodies, for your needs I would avoid retractable gear and turbo chargers, but go with the variable-piched prop.

You will save on maintenance and insurance. You stated speed and altitude are not big factors. I first soloed out of CRQ. It is sea level with mild temperatures with the ocean breeze. Yeah, check your DA, but it ain't mountain flying!

 

[350DRIVER]

If I were you I would look into either the A-36 or a V-35, much more airplane for the money and these airplanes will hold their value quite well. The A-36 is a great product and it is by far my most favorite of any single-engine aircraft that I have ever flown. After you fly one I am sure you will also be in agreement with me, they are second to none. Your boys will only grow in size so why not go with the airplane that will also work for you 3 to 5 years down the line.


I would really look into the Bonanza if I were you, I don't think you will be disapointed. You also shouldn't have a problem getting insured. You may have to obtain like 20 to 25 hours of instruction in make/model but that should be the extent of your problems.

good luck,

3 5 0

 

[HMR]

Stay away from retracts and turbo chargers. Too many insurance/maintenance headaches. Get the 206. It's very stable and hauls a ton. Plus everyone faces forward in their seats unlike the Piper or Bonanza. Kids and wives tend to get airsick when they have to fly facing backwards. This will be a factor when it's 40C and you're getting pummeled over Julian VOR.

 

[sstearns2]

Might want to make sure you have a parking spot/hangar in Carlsbad before you buy. It's pretty tight there.


Scott

ps- I vote for the Cherokee 6, stay away from the Skymaster.

 

[414Flyer]

Yeah I agree with those who say Cherokee 6. Insurance and maintanance will be much less cheaper than if you had a twin. I have seen some Cherokee 6 300s that actually could seat 7, of course that is not full fuel I am sure.

life will be much simpler, no retractable gear, no turbocharger, no second engine.

 

[rumpletumbler]

A PC-12 would be nice for that load.

http://www.pilatus-aircraft.com/2_ga_commercial/ga_commercial.htm

Verrrra roomy und nice! Probably a touch more expensive than an Cherokee 6 though.

 

[Vector4fun]

With your flight time and budget, I'd definately look at the Cherokee 6. Great load hauler. 2000 hr TBO. Simple systems. Much easier to insure than any high perf retract. Usually a bit cheaper than the C-206, though a C-205 might be a possibility if you can find one that's been maintained well. (Only made in '63-64).
Caveat: compaired to what you're been flying, a Cherokee six is going to feel like a '65 Chevy 1 ton truck with no power steering. It's heavy on the controls. Fly it for a few years and then decide if you can afford double the maint and insurance costs. If so, buy a nice, later model Bonanza. Don't be swayed by "inexpensive" early models. They can be a nightmare if you have to do some corrosion work, replace the bladders, etc., etc. etc.

 

[sky37d]

Sorry if I wan't clear in initial post. I am looking for a plane which will be able to transport me and my wife, along with 3 boys (2 - 6 yrs) also with some room for baggage. Probably at least 150lbs. I am not too concerned with speed or altitude. Rather I am looking for something on the economical side (upkeep, maintenance, and insurance). I am just looking to see what others have to say on 5 - 6 person GA airplanes. Also to see if there are any decent planes I haven't came across in my inquiries. This will be my first purchase of a plane. I am not too sure of all the details I need to look at, although I am learning.
I have also considered a possible lease-back for charter (not training), or a possible partnership. I am out of CRQ in San Diego County, not much in the way of sharing or leasing at CRQ. Thanks

Okay, here's the scoop. I own a 337. It will carry 4 adults, +2 small people, but you'll need a cargo pod for the luggage. I have the pod. It will also carry 1500+ for useful load. Mine is normally aspirated, not turbo or pressurized. Both of those things add complexity and expense, but it depends on your use. You can put a pod on a pressurized model. Mine has de-ice boots and radar. It is the first plane I owned, going from renting 172's with 130 hours TT, to owning the 337.
For more information about them go to www.337skymaster.org
The day I first flew a skymaster, we flew over a place where a single engine plane had an engine failure, and was upside down in a field, no survivors. I told my wife we will never own a single engine plane.
The biggest hurdle is insurance. They are going to want you to have make and model experience, and of course the ME rating. I went to RBD, to a school, got mine there. There are lots of 337's in CA, so finding an instructor should be easy.
For non-turbo, no boots, figure 175 for cruise.
Boots reduce the speed some. I paid 45K for mine, but then had to add an engine. There are lots of them for sale in the range you are talking.

 

[cands]

I flew a turbo cessna 210 in the 90is It's very stable and hauls a lot, and will not burn a lot of fuel.

 

[DisrespectedJ32]

Since this is your first aircraft purchase, I would suggest hiring a consultant to help you find the right one, and to teach you the basics about aircraft ownership.

Usually, in the bottom end of the market, a real good purchasing consultant will cost a few thousand on top of the purchase price, but if you find the right one, it will be money well spent.

Do not fall into the buying/owning trap - find someone who knows what they are doing and can hold your hand and show you not only how to buy an aircraft but also how to own one too. Airplane ownership is a unique experience and its better too learn from other peoples mistakes then have to pay serious $$ to learn on your own.

PM me if you have any questions.

 

[Jeff Helgeson]

AOPA can help

Since this is your first aircraft purchase, I would suggest hiring a consultant to help you find the right one, and to teach you the basics about aircraft ownership.

Usually, in the bottom end of the market, a real good purchasing consultant will cost a few thousand on top of the purchase price, but if you find the right one, it will be money well spent.

Do not fall into the buying/owning trap - find someone who knows what they are doing and can hold your hand and show you not only how to buy an aircraft but also how to own one too. Airplane ownership is a unique experience and its better too learn from other peoples mistakes then have to pay serious $$ to learn on your own.

PM me if you have any questions.

I would join the AOPA, if you are not already a member. they have consulting services to help you through the process, title searches, accident damage reports, etc.

 

[Phoenix45]

Thanks - But more Questions....

Thanks for all the responses and help. I think I was leaning towards the Cherokee Six to begin with. Although I like the looks, performance, and center-line twin of the Skymaster (I am looking at a twin because I will be finishing up my multi when I return to US, might as well save on the aircraft lease), the insurance may not make it feasable. Plus it looked like the 6 seats took up all the interior room. I have been looking at the Cherokee 6-300 so it has the power as the boys grow. I can alway upgrade to a twin later if I need to. It looks like most everyone would agree to the Cherokee Six being the first one to look at. Of course it depends on how well it flies.

Next questions - about how much monthly would I be looking at for insurance as a low time pilot? What does everyone think about a lease-back for charter service. I now that insurance is quite a bit more if leased-back for training. However I wouldn't want that wear and tear on the plane anyway. At least with charter-service I would know the pilots flying it. There seems to be a bit of a demand for a charter aircraft with a little bit more lift than a Duchess of of CRQ.

Thanks

 

[Airpiraterob]

also agree

4 out of 5 doctors agree.....on a different plane entirely...

but i agree on the cherokee-6/fixed-gear saratoga. its got room for 5+ all the bagage youll need with 5 peeps. and if you need to put your motha-in-law in there.....the back seats are far enough away you wotn hear her. economical. friendlier on the pockedbook than the 337. and its a HOSS !!! whatever you can fit into it it will take.

Besides, things like gap seals and other assorted speed-mods actually make a big difference in cruise speeds, making it even more pocketbook friendly.

 

[Vector4fun]

Next questions - about how much monthly would I be looking at for insurance as a low time pilot? What does everyone think about a lease-back for charter service. I now that insurance is quite a bit more if leased-back for training. However I wouldn't want that wear and tear on the plane anyway. At least with charter-service I would know the pilots flying it. There seems to be a bit of a demand for a charter aircraft with a little bit more lift than a Duchess of of CRQ.

Thanks

Just a guess on my part, about $1500/yr for $80k hull value. Again, that's just a guess. I don't know how much that would go up if you insured it for charter work. My policy specifically excludes commercial use. (AOPA)

A lease-back is strictly worth what you negotiate. Who will pay the insurance? Who will be responsible for the 100 hr inspections? Will there be 2-3 named pilots; or can anybody the charter outfit digs up this week fly? As a newbe, you need to be very careful here. I've seen lease-back owners taken to the poor-house by a FBO with maint issues. The FBO's pilots found something wrong every month, and the FBO's shop was happy to bill 10 hrs a month plus parts. Unless you need the business deductions, I'd rather find a single, trustworthy partner, and just split the costs 50-50, and manage my own maint.

 

[Flyin Tony]

insurance on a piper comanche 250
70,000 haul
1 mil and all that other crap
100TT no IR was 2,500 a year from AOPA

Your best bet is a
cherokee 6, 206, 210