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Adjusting V1

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Weasil

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 19, 2003
Posts
752
On the CRJ we would get V1 from the speedcards for the given takeoff weight. The runway analysis received from ARINC via ACARS would contain a MAX V1 which would limit the V1 to a lower speed if the runway is contaminated (snow/ice etc...).

I'm in training on the EMB145 right now and as far as I can tell there is no such allowance anywhere. The runway analysis charts don't seem to contain any kind of adjustment to V1 for runway surface contamination.

If the runway is covered in snow, then it takes longer to accelerate to V1 and would take more runway to stop in the event of a rejected takeoff. Therefore ARINC would lower the V1 speed for us if necessary in order to have acceptable accelerate-stop performance. How is this taken into account on the EMB145? ANybody know?
 
The only thing I can remember where your V1 speed actually goes down in the 145 is if you do not have thrust reversers or they are MEL'd.
 
Some vendors only provide 'wet' performance data (includes slush, snow, rain). Flex power also changes V1 (based on assumed temp). V1 must meet accelerate/stop distance requirements and allow the a/c to continue the takeoff after engine failure to a height of 35'.
 
snow makes the to roll longer but you decelerate pretty well - i think it cancels out. Ice and rain increase the stopping distance but im pretty sure snow (dry at least) doesnt affect v1 that much.
 
at express, at the bottom of the runway analysis charts -
there's a penalty for icing/contaminated conditions.

usually about 800 lbs. - you just subtract that from the
max allowable wt for that runway.
 
They knew what they were getting into when they bought the tickets. I say let 'em crash!
Ha Ha-- VERY nice 'airplane' reference.. almost spit my milk&cereal out my nose.
Serioulsy though - this is an interesting point; especially for equipment deferrals. I fly the CRJ and we recently had a plane with a T/R deferred. I've had one before, but during IOE it didn't occurr to me to ask-- this last time, especially w/ us planning departure from MDW rwy 31C... I brought this up to the CA (and he it didn't even seem to occurr at all to him-- he was thinking that I meant we need T/Rs for LANDING data; which we don't.. took me a while to infuse the logic into him.. which troubled me)
Anyway- sure enough; our FCOM book/MEL didn't provide for a V1 reduction w/ a T/R deferred..
Then we blast off of RWY 31C @ full gross -and let me tell you: the ablility to stop (even w/ BOTH reversers) after a high-speed abort become VERY theoretical.
 
crjskipper said:
snow makes the to roll longer but you decelerate pretty well - i think it cancels out. Ice and rain increase the stopping distance but im pretty sure snow (dry at least) doesnt affect v1 that much.

Exqueeze me?
 
ohoh said:
at express, at the bottom of the runway analysis charts -
there's a penalty for icing/contaminated conditions.

usually about 800 lbs. - you just subtract that from the
max allowable wt for that runway.

So if you're full, and the runway is short, you bump up the T/O setting to the approriate one for your weight.
So you go from ALT T/O to T/O or to E T/O

If the runway is in excess of 7000 feet at sea level (ie: not SLC), you can usually puch out at ALT T/O no problem.
 
ohoh said:
at express, at the bottom of the runway analysis charts -
there's a penalty for icing/contaminated conditions.

usually about 800 lbs. - you just subtract that from the
max allowable wt for that runway.

Aren't those weight restrictions for if you are using anti-ice. Not if the runway is contaminated?

As a related side note - the NTSB report on flight 2051 (ran off the runway in CLE) finishes with this statement - "The airplane operating manual did not contain contaminated runway charts."
 
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The Drizzle said:
I think the answer would depend on the vendor of the takeoff/runway data. who does your company use?
There is no vendor - performance manual is in the airplane along with speedcards.
 
Your airline should have a vendor that provides runway weight data for each runway and tempurature as well as a lot of other things like ice on, contaminated runway, tailwind, headwind, etc... It is in every release ive ever seen. I dont think our performance manuals have numbers like this. Its pretty thick and all it has is highspeed cruise, long range cruise, holding speeds, etc... It would be so friggin thick to have data for every temp on every runway at every airport we serve.
 
ohoh said:
at express, at the bottom of the runway analysis charts -
there's a penalty for icing/contaminated conditions.

usually about 800 lbs. - you just subtract that from the
max allowable wt for that runway.
You must fly out of Houston's George Bush Intercontinental Airport.
 
Its been a few years and a few airplanes since I flew the 145 so forgive me if this question sounds dumb, but, Does the 145 AFM differentiate between wet runway (water) and contaminated (ice, snow, slush)??
Not sure if its applicable but for the sake of the discussion, the Bomabrdier aircraft that we operate have different perf charts for wet and contaminated. The wet data (reduced V1, t/o and ldg dist.) is included in the perf section of the AFM and the contaminated data is actually in the supplemental section in the back of the manual. Reason being is that during a/c certification the test pilots determined the wet perf data in the actual aircraft, on a wet runway. The contaminated data however is determined by interpolation from the engineering types with subtle differences such as taking credit for T/Rs on contaminated surfaces but not on dry runways.
As a result the manufacturer wont certify the contaminated data as gospel under FAR Part 25 Certification.

disclaimer: I wasnt smart enough to come up with this on my own, the info was relayed to me by a Bombardier Tech rep about 2 years ago.
 
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rjacobs said:
Your airline should have a vendor that provides runway weight data for each runway and tempurature as well as a lot of other things like ice on, contaminated runway, tailwind, headwind, etc... It is in every release ive ever seen. I dont think our performance manuals have numbers like this. Its pretty thick and all it has is highspeed cruise, long range cruise, holding speeds, etc... It would be so friggin thick to have data for every temp on every runway at every airport we serve.

I agree with you, that's kind of my point. At my last airline we used ARINC. It appears as though they don't give us contaminated runway information at all at my new job. The performance manual in the airplane does contain a runway analysis for each airport we fly into, but it has no correction for runway surface contamination.
 
crjskipper said:
snow makes the to roll longer but you decelerate pretty well - i think it cancels out. Ice and rain increase the stopping distance but im pretty sure snow (dry at least) doesnt affect v1 that much.


WTF ??? :confused:
 
Great Question!

I like this topic as it brings out a very important, but seldom discussed topic outside the recurrent classroom!
Please excuse me if I seem rather redundant here with this post, but it seems that there are conflicting messages out there with regards to V1 adjustments.
first off, I assume that everyone on here knows why and how you do Reduced power takoffs, and also with regards to reducing V1. When dealing with anything other than a dry runway, normal ops,(no performance affecting MEL's), you can never reduce to a flex or adjust V1. Wet or contaminated means that you apply full to pwr and fly the regular v speeds. there was a post that said that v1 is affected by thrust reversers, and this is not the case, when transport category aircraft are certified, ALL RUNWAY PERFORMANCE is certified WITHOUT the use of TR's. now there is sometimes a case when an airline sets itself apart and spends oodles of money to get a special certification beyond what is normal, so unless you were told and trained from initial that this applies to your specific airline and ops specs, then the normal transport certification protocol applies. there was another post where it talked about the 35' height and this stands for all aircraft and is rock solid and doesn't move. this is but the tip of the iceberg as the rest of TERPS must be followed as well which states: obstacle clearance is based on the aircraft climbing at least 200' per NM, crossin the end of the runway at least 35'ft and climbing to 400ft above airport elevation before turning(which is why your profiles have you turn after 400!) unless otherwise specified in the procedure. a slope of 152' per NM starting at 35' above the end of the runway is assessed for obstacles. a minimum of 48' ft per NM of obstacle clearance is provided in the assumed climb gradient. .......then it goes on to say that if obstacles penetrate that 152' slope then that is why you have a specified IFR departure procedure. Now there is more regarding what kind of climb gradient you must achieve single engine for 1st. 2nd 3rd segment until reaching 400' ft based on whether you are 2-eng or more, but we now get beyond the scope of the original question, but i just wrote this to set the record straight that TERPS procedures do not change and that is what all aircraft must meet at the minimum, so therefore changing your speeds or to pwr doesnt affect what you must minimally meet. there was another post that said that snow makes the to roll longer but in effect shortens the landing roll and that this somehow nullifies things!!!...huh? snow negatively affects both the to and landing #'s, and again the #'s dont care if you have TR's or a drag chute or anything....they are predicated on wheel brakes and speedbrakes alone! having said that, we know that snow now brings to life something called hydroplaning, so it makes the landing roll LONGER, not shorter. hell, just look at your tab data for any airplane, it will tell you the same thing! Now Mercury is right on with the wet vs contaminated data that comes from certification process! wet is demonstrated while cont is only interpolated. so again, V1 is affected by a multitude of factors(weight, temp, runway cond, MEL, to state some) when reducing it, you must take care to not reduce it beyond VMCA and it can never be more than V2(which only cares about weight). the older airplanes depend on the flight engineer for this tabulation while i guess newer airplanes may or may not do it for you, but in any case, unless you are normal ops, on a dry runway, To data is as published. I hope this has provided informative and If i am off base or dont make sense then i would be happy to elaborate more.
safe flying everyone!
 
I am almost certain in our release it has a v1 number for if a t/r is inop or not installed. I will look at the release when I fly again and try to find it and I will post a scan of it. Landing data is not predicated on T/R, but I am pretty sure, again at least at my company, that we have a v1 penalty if we dont have reversers, now if people ever use it is another thing(wait now that I say that I dont think I have ever adjusted it).
 
For transport category planes certified under Part 25, (all RJ's and bigger), T/R's can't be used to figure accellerate stop distance on a dry runway, but can be used to figure the distance on a wet runway. You don't need a different V1 if you are using a dry runway and an inop T/R, because the calculations are based on no T/R's. On a wet runway, you would have to take a weight penalty, and perhaps a V1 adjustment.

From 25.109,
...
e) Except as provided in paragraph (f)(1) of this section, means other than wheel brakes may be used to determine the accelerate-stop distance if that means—
(1) Is safe and reliable;
(2) Is used so that consistent results can be expected under normal operating conditions; and
(3) Is such that exceptional skill is not required to control the airplane.
(f) The effects of available reverse thrust—
(1) Shall not be included as an additional means of deceleration when determining the accelerate-stop distance on a dry runway; and
(2) May be included as an additional means of deceleration using recommended reverse thrust procedures when determining the accelerate-stop distance on a wet runway, provided the requirements of paragraph (e) of this section are met.
 
Some 737s use TR in the calculation of their stopping performance. Just search for the Southwest thread on the Midway overrun. My friend flies the guppy at CAL and told me the same thing about TRs being factored into stopping distance on some 737s. It's the only aircraft I personally know of that does such a thing. Are there others?

AWACoff
 
737drvr,

Very good post. However, the 35' screen height may be reduced when using a reduceds V1 due to a wet runway, so long as the aircraft can still meet the 1,2,3,and 4 engine net climb gradients you stated before. Also, you may not reduce V1 lower than Vmcg, not Vmca. Just a small point adjusted for clarity.

box :beer:
 
Thanks for the correction boxjockey, i surely meant vmcg! So like i said before, if an airline like southwest wants to spend some $$$$ to get certified to use TR's for landing performance, then that is what i was talking about before when you can have a unique situation that stands out. Yes, you can use TR #'s on the B737, but the stipulations of section E on that transport certification post above, basically makes it encumbant upon the airline to prove that is falls under (normal, safe, reliable, with average skill) and costs $$$ so that is why SWA is an exception. Now when talking about takeoff and landing #'s for bigger transport aircraft other than corporate jets and Rj's, you tend to come across balanced field lengths, rather than worry about accl/stop, and accl/go distances, so #'s take that into account, so when reducing V1, you now have to be careful because some aircraft's V1/Vr #'s are the same or very close and some are further apart. So take into account when you have say a 7knot difference between V1 and Vr, and then you reduce V1 another 4knots or so,......if you have an engine failure at the now reduced V1 or slightly higher, you must now continue, and accelerate another 10 knots or more to reach Vr on a degredation of 80% in performance on a contaminated runway(now with one less TR!, so those #'s go out the window),....the end result is that you may or may not be able to properly accelerate and make your required climbs. Like I said, this is a pretty good topic because how often do you talk about things like this out on the line? Like someone else said, some captains out on the line(and FO's too) truly forget about things like that and pretty much go off the gospel(dispatch release), so that is when you have to be sharp and think about things like this! thanks guys for piping in with your thoughts and specs quotes.
 

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