actual inst. time?

[epic!]

I have spoken to different pilots about this but never did get a solid answer.

I am working on my instrument. My CFII has been quite busy flying charter so I have been flying with a CFI. When using the CFI if I encounter actual instrument conditions, can i log it as such?

 

[SPilot]

Your CFI-only instructor cannot provide you with instruction in actual IFR conditions, and you are not rated for IFR conditions. I also believe flight time with a CFI does not count as "authorized instruction" towards the hour requirements for your instrument rating. He'd have to take the flight controls every time you're in IMC, and fly you trough it, and then continue the lesson once in VFR conditions again.

At least thats my understanding of it.

 

[BWatz]

A CFI can indeed give instruction in actual conditions....

 

[ackattacker]

You can log actual anytime you are piloting the airplane in actual instrument conditions. It doesn't matter who is in the right seat.

If it's a CFI then fine. If it's a CFII all the better. Either way it's the same. The only reason it would need to be a CFII is if you were counting the time towards the specific hourly instruction requirements of attaining the instrument rating.

CFI's can give instruction in IMC... just not towards the instrument rating. The reg is 61.195(c)

(c) Instrument Rating. A flight instructor who provides instrument flight training for the issuance of an instrument rating or a type rating not limited to VFR must hold an instrument rating on his or her flight instructor certificate and pilot certificate that is appropriate to the category and class of aircraft in which instrument training is being provided.

 

[chitownflyer]

You are allowed to log actual IMC time regardless of the rating held by your CFI. You can also get instruction in instrument procedures from an non-II CFI.....BUT.....the regulations require you to have 15 hours of instruction by a CFI-I towards your instrument rating.

 

[ajhbubs84]

I have spoken to different pilots about this but never did get a solid answer.

I am working on my instrument. My CFII has been quite busy flying charter so I have been flying with a CFI. When using the CFI if I encounter actual instrument conditions, can i log it as such?

You do not hold an instrument rating, so when you encounter actual IMC, you may not log any PIC time. Just my two cents...

 

[ajhbubs84]

dam double posts

 

[nosehair]

You do not hold an instrument rating, so when you encounter actual IMC, you may not log any PIC time. Just my two cents...

The regulation, 61.51(e)(1)(i) says any pilot (except student pilot) may log PIC time any time he/she is sole manipulator of the controls.

You don't have to BE the PIC to LOG PIC. To me, that's crazy, but that is the reg.

 

[midlifeflyer]

You do not hold an instrument rating, so when you encounter actual IMC, you may not log any PIC time. Just my two cents...

Save your money. The words of the FAR 61.51 (the universal rule of logging time) as interpreted by the FAA lawyers consistently over the past 25 years have had this FAQ answered for a long time.

 

[white knuckle]

I have wondered about this as well. Are people advising that a pilot without an instrument rating that is receiving dual in IMC may log PIC for that time which is actual? This is an interesting question and I have received yea and nay answers depending on who you ask.

I've had some people tell me that you can't log PIC on an instrument flight plan if you don't have an instrument rating no matter if it is visual, simulated, or actual (receiving dual).

Thanks for everyones input.

 

[vectorvictor]

I have spoken to different pilots about this but never did get a solid answer.

I am working on my instrument. My CFII has been quite busy flying charter so I have been flying with a CFI. When using the CFI if I encounter actual instrument conditions, can i log it as such?

It is all logable flight time. You can log PIC time when you have the appropriat category and class and any additional ratings required when receiving dual from an authorized instructor. In order to apply for an instrument rating you have to receive 15 hours from a CFII. You can log instrument flight time any time you are the sole manipulator of the controls without adequate visual reference. So the IMC time with the CFI is dual received (not PIC) and actual as well.

My advice, find a seasoned CFII and a good airplane if you are going to learn to punch holes in clouds.

 

[nosehair]

You can log PIC time when you have the appropriat category and class and any additional ratings required when receiving dual from an authorized instructor.

Not ratings, victorvector, just cat and class. The reg 61.51(e)(1)(i) says "Is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated."
Not "has an instrument rating".

The term "rating" here means the cat and class "rating" that is printed on your pilot certifificate. It does not even include "endorsements" such as Complex, H/P. or Tailwheel.

The hard thing, for me, to get in my thick skull, is that you don't have to be able to act as PIC to log PIC. You don't have to be current or have a medical. You only, only, have to have a sport, recreational, private, or commercial pilot certificate with ASEL printed on the ratings part to be able to log PIC when you are sole manipulaor of an ASEL with an instructor, even if you haven't flown in 20 years. As long as you are sole manipulator.

You can log PIC in a Malibu when you are sole manipulating even if it is with another private pilot buddy who is letting you hold the controls in IMC.

 

[midlifeflyer]

I have wondered about this as well. Are people advising that a pilot without an instrument rating that is receiving dual in IMC may log PIC for that time which is actual? This is an interesting question and I have received yea and nay answers depending on who you ask.

Let's try asking the FAA. Note the date and that the FAR subsection numbers (but not the text) have changed.

==============================
OCT. 28, 1980

WINSTON SCOTT JONES

Dear Mr. Jones:

This is in response to your letter in which you request an interpretation of Section 61.51(2)(c) of the Federal Aviation Regulations, regarding logging of pilot-in-command (PIC) flight time.

Specifically, you ask what time may be logged as PIC time when the pilot in the right seat is a certificated flight instructor (CFI) along for the purpose of instruction and is not a required crewmember, and the pilot in the left seat holds either a private or commercial certificate in an aircraft for which he is rated.

Section 61.51 is a flight-time logging regulation, under which PIC time may be logged by one who is not actually the pilot in command (i.e., not "ultimately" responsible for the aircraft) during that time. This is consistent with the purpose of Section 61.51, which as stated in 61.51(a) is to record aeronautical training and experience used to meet the requirements for a certificate or rating, or the recent flight experience requirements of Section 61.

Section 61.51(c)(2)(i) provides that a private or commercial pilot may log as pilot-in-command time only that flight time during which the pilot--

1. Is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which he is rated; or

2. Is the sole occupant of the aircraft; or

3. Acts as pilot-in-command of an aircraft on which more than one pilot is required under the type certification of the aircraft, or the regulations under which the flight is conducted.

Under Section 61.51(c)(2)(iii) a certificated flight instructor may log as pilot-in-command time all flight time during which he or she acts as a flight instructor. Sections 61.51(b)(2)(iii) and (iv) provide for logging of flight instruction and instrument flight instruction received.

Accordingly, two or more pilots may each log PIC time for the same flight time. For example, a pilot who is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which he or she is rated may log that time as PIC time under 61.51(c)(2)(i) while receiving instruction, and the instructor may log that same time as PIC time under 61.51(c)(2)(iii).

There is no provision in the FAR's for logging of "dual" flight time; however, we assume that you are referring to logging time as instruction received. Section 61.51(b)(2)(iii) and (iv) allow flight instruction and instrument instruction received time to be recorded. There is nothing in the FAR's which prevents a pilot from logging the same time as both instruction received and PIC time, as long as each requirement is met. The pilot may also log the same time as instrument instruction. Note, though, that one hour of flight logged both as one hour of PIC and one hour of instruction received still adds up to only one hour total flight time.

You request interpretations of these regulations for situations in which:

1. The purpose of the flight is instruction in advanced maneuvers.

2. The purpose of the flight is simulated instrument instruction in actual VFR conditions.

3. The purpose of the flight is instrument instruction actual IFR conditions.

4. The pilot in the left seat is not current in the aircraft or in the conditions of flight.

5. The purpose of the flight is transition from tricycle to conventional landing gear.

6. The purpose of the flight is obtaining logbook endorsement authorizing operation of a high performance aircraft, as required by FAR 61.31(e).

7. The purpose of the flight is transition to a different type aircraft of the same category and class for which the left seat pilot is rated and a type rating is not required.

In each situation, the CFI may log PIC time for all flight time during which she or he acts as flight instructor. The pilot receiving instruction may also log PIC time in each of these situations, as the pilot is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which she or he is rated. Specifically, neither the currency requirements of situation 4 nor the log book endorsement of situation 6 are ratings within the meaning of Section 61.51. "Rating" as used in that section refers to the rating in categories, classes, and types, as listed in Section 61.5, which are placed on pilot certificates.

We trust that this discussion answers your questions.

Sincerely,

EDWARD P. FABERMAN
Acting Assistant Chief Counsel
Regulations and Enforcement Division
==============================

Yes, this "hot" question that everyone has a different "opinion" about was settled by the FAA more that 25 years ago.