ACA: No to Yes....

[70Cuda]

I've been listing to quite a lot of arguments regarding how ACA should vote on their TA. Initially I was all for voting "NO," unfortunately, when I look at the situation realistically I can only conclude that a "NO" vote would only do more harm than good for the company.

I now believe, since ALL of the other UEX regionals have sold out, ACA must vote their Bullsh!t TA into effect if they want to compete for any United contracts. UAL has the leverage against the regionals. That is the bottom line. And why do they have the leverage..........because of ALPA. ALPA sold us out starting with MESA. If they actually knew what they were doing and how to run a union they would have organized with all the other regional pilot groups to stand against Ornstien and the rest. Instead, they chose to look out for themselves and said F_ck the rest of the brotherhood.

I hear a lot of ACA pilots saying "full pay to the last day." Well, for those who vote "NO" I hope you sincerely know what the consequences are because from all the misinformation and rhetoric I hear from most of the pilots in the crew room most don't know what they are talking about. I hear so much rediculous speculation taken for fact it's starting to make my head hurt. Pilots are essentially creating their own false realities base solely on emotion and no facts. ACA will acomplish NOTHING by voting "YES." The die has already been cast. Maybe in the future it can be undone if ALPA gets their Sh!t together.

The bottom line is: we either all stand together as regional pilots and create a better future, or we look out only for ourselves and sink to the bottom (yes, I'm talking to you, MESA) . Well, it looks like we've made our choices. ACA now has no choice.

My hat is off to the COMAIR pilots for standing up for what they value.

 

[skootertrash]

But why does it need to be in effect for 5-6 years?

 

[Diesel]

ACA allready sent in their proposal to ual before they asked for concessions from the pilots.

So how is taking concessions going to make aca more competitive. Are they going to re submit their bid.

Again 5 years jesus. We'll be back on the downturn by the time the 5 years are over.

70cuda- How could you look yourself in the mirror for flying a 70 seat rj for 50 seat wages.

 

[walkthasky]

because it does..

And if you all vote it down "there wont be another TA, you guys did it to yourselves". Right from T.M.'s mouth. He was in the crew room yesterday. Hes desperate obviously. Skywest has 50% of the flying already!!! Were screwed either way, but at least with a YES we may remain somewhat stagnant. Im getting furloughed either way so a yes or no doesnt help me, but a yes helps the company, and maybe i can come back in the future. Vote no and all of you will be sitting at home with a 100% paycut. But wait, i forgot this LCC there planning on is gonna be great, yeah right...I agree with Cuda, everyone is in fantasyland but if they want pay to the last day, then there gonna get there last day...
just the "facts"...

And how do we know there will be an upturn soon, so how can there be a downturn in 5 yrs. The airline industry could be crippled for a while longer, you never know.

 

[Redtailer]

I just want to ask the question: HOW WOULD YOU EXPECT MANAGEMENT TO PROTRAY THE SITUATION?

My point is this, if management really wanted you to agree to a crappy TA then why wouldn't they paint the bleakest picture possible to everyone and have them repeat it.

As someone said to me perception is reality.

What an idea, management lying to everyone. No, that would never happen.

If you vote the TA down make no mistake that the negotiations will continue. I doubt management would just lick their wounds and fold.

Good Luck!!!!!

 

[g159av8tor]

I look at the situation realistically I can only conclude that a "NO" vote would only do more harm than good for the company.

ACA now has no choice.

My hat is off to the COMAIR pilots for standing up for what they value.

Flaim bait? Maybe? Your comments uninformed and juvenile, YES!!!

No choice? Are you kidding? SKW pilots gave no concessions and will fly 70 seaters at our old 50 seat rate. Whose the a$$hole?

If UAL can afford SKW at their current pilot rates (which are 2% below ours at ACA--basically our ALPA dues) then they can afford us as well! Also, if you think for one minute that our MGT would hinge the success of ACA on this one TA, please reconsider. Furthermore, If you don't think ACA has been awared the flying already and is waiting to announce it how SKW did AFTER their TA passed, wake up.

We have a choice, vote NO!!!

Otherwise, we are no better than Mesa. And Skeen and Moore will laugh all the way to the bank while our 96 furloughs stand in line at the unemployment office. Dude, wake the f*ck up.
I'm reminded of a true story told to me from the number one on the J-41 CA whom is in my crashpad and a fellow Hotlantian.

BAck in 1995-6 ACA was in a worse financial situation and bequested to lay most of the financial burden of health insurance expenses on the pilots and FAs.

The FAs stood their ground and gave Skeen et al the 'ole finger.
The frighted pilots, ever scared and always "just wanting to fly" gave in and signed a LOA to help shoulder the financial strain of health care from the company.

To THIS day, FAs don't pay a f*ck'n dime towards their health insurance while we pilots front our underpaid portion.

That scare tactic worked before, don't let it work again. It's BS and propaganda what you hear from the company.

Vote NO!!!

Tailwinds...

 

[House_X]

Please name ONE GUARANTEE that this TA would give to us pilots who fly the line.

Here it is: We will make less $$$$ than we do right now.

If we vote yes all of the horrible economic constraints made by United would still have an adverse effect. The TA will not ensure we stay at our current level and it will not ensure we will stay in business. Will it increase our chances of staying in business?
THIS ISN'T VEGAS!!! This is our future, our livelyhood and our career!

You give me ONE SOLID GUARANTEE in this TA and I will entertain a yes vote.

Economics 101...NEVER SIGN A BAD CONTRACT!!!!!!!

House

 

[PBRstreetgang]

Folks,
Dont bite on the bait, they used doom and gloom on the pilots at Skywest.
"700+ or 53% of the pilots were fooled and bit down hard on the bait, less than 6 hours after the "vote" UAL announced an 11 year MOU with SKYW. Turns out, the deal was done days prior and mgmt was just looking for a way to increase profits to pre-9/11 rates. Thats right, pre-9/11 profits when everyone is loosing money (including UAL). You ask how can that happen, fuzzy math(enron, ect), if earnings can be fudged one way, cannot they be fudged the other way also?
How can USAirways come out of bankruptcy and state they have 1.5 bil. in the bank? Ask some very hard questions of youself, could UAL afford to lose your feed, if you strike? Didn't think so, you strike, the routes won't get flown, period, dot, end of sentence. You say what about SKYW? I will not step over a picket line for anyone. The one thing that the "700+ or 53% are afraid of is being labled "scab" by any A.L.P.A. carrier, since their ultimate plan is to go to a "Major airline".
Do what is best for you, not anyone else(this brotherhood stuff is crap), a large portion of the aspiring pilots today would take YOUR job in a second if they could(PFT).
Stay hard, keep your powder dry
Look out for yourself
PBR

 

[Machdog1]

What world are you livining in?

I don't know what happen along the way, but I will tell you right now there will be noooooooo talks again if this TA is voted down. Was there talks when we voted done the charter TA. I was at Tom Moores, "crew room" meeting and he said that if we vote no the are no other options. I think the people who still are voting no are the ones who should really look into the mirror, you might have your self respect but you want have your job, by all means if you want to quit because the pay is to low, do it and go find that other job that I here is so easy to find maybe I will be able to keep my job or move up the senorioty poll. I am doing want I have to, to keep this company going and my career going. I really think the people who are voting no do not have all of the information, and are filled with so much distrust, I am afraid you are going to make the wrong choice. Believe me I hope I am wrong, and if you are from all the FACTS that I have heard still voting no, Good luck to you and all of us!!

 

[acaTerry]

After reading this thread, all I can say is: go back to high school, some of you. It's enough that this sounds like the lunchroom in school. Name calling, kicking sand at everyone. And besides, can ANYONE spell?!! All I hear around me is people so concerned about which airline requires college. Some posts almost carry some credibility, IF THEY COULD PERFORM SIMPLE EIGHTH GRADE SPELLING. Man, everybody needs to calm down.
Mesa sucks...SkyWest sucks...Comair sucks....knock it off. Mesa did what they had to do TO STOP FREEDOM. If ACA pilots sign this TA then DON"T SAY A WORD ABOUT MESA PILOTS. Geez, it's like arresting the hooker and letting the customer go free.
The industry stinks now. Period. It sucks for almost everyone. This is a collective problem, not due to this pilot group or that pilot group. Just sit down in your airplane and do your job. You wanted to be pilots, so be pilots. The guys ahead of us have seen times like this, probably more than once. They fought their fights, and did their jobs. If ACA is doing so bad that the TA will make or break it, then that's T.M.'s fault, not some guy flying for this airline or that airline.
I think I'll just stop coming into this website, at least the Regional section. It amazes me how coming in here to look for information or fun talk has turned into a pi$$ing match between pilot groups.

 

[flaps30]

sellouts

I can't believe how many sellouts are at ACA. I used to have respect for you but since most seem to have little respect for themself, forget it. Can't you guys see through this, stand up for yourself.

 

[sgu]

say no

its the buy low sell high philosophy being used by mgmt. The industry is at its low and poised for a rebound and with pilot groups taking the hit, profits will just skyrocket. It sucks Ual is going around with a tin cup to see who will give the most ( take away $$ from employee groups). Say no to pay cuts.

 

[Jeepman]

First of all if MESA voted the way that they did to keep Free-dumb from going away, then why is Freedum still growing?

We at SKYW were told if we didn't sign the TA then "we wouldn't get the 70's" What happened? The TA polls closed 2 hours early and 53% of the pilots "overwhelmingly" approved it, even though on a separate "unoficcial" TA poll where you could see the results real time on a non-company website (SAPA) the TA was being voted down. Then just 6 hours later the announcement of the MOU comes out!!! Granted it's just an MOU but we had the RJ's ANYWAYS!!! I have even heard that the same morning our agreement with UAL was announced , another round of furlough notices went out at UAL.

WE ARE SELLING OUT FUTURE HIGH PAYING JOBS TO FLY RJ'S FOR DIRT CHEAP!!!

Honestly, I don't know what to say to ACA guys & gals. I voted no with our agreement, but at this point if ACA votes no, we might end up with their flying because our pilots "overwhelmingly" approved the TA.

 

[acaTerry]

Jeepman,
Freedumb is growing, but under the Mesa certificate. This changes the whole situation. Either way, the Blacklist is out, thank God.
Fly safe,
Terry

 

[Dave Benjamin]

I may be wrong, but I believe the minute you start flying 70 seat aircraft for United, you lose your Delta flying. Would your management trade Delta flying for United?

The clause in the DALPA contract refers to aircraft larger than 70 seats.

There may be a way around that clause. Time will tell.

 

[stillaboo]

YV clarification

Jeepman,
Freedumb is growing, but under the Mesa certificate. This changes the whole situation. Either way, the Blacklist is out, thank God.
Fly safe,
Terry

Just to claify: Freedom is still growing under the Freedom certificate, but the pilots are now on one seniority list, ALPA, and there are no more 'whip-saw' pilots (all pilots going to Freedom now are Mesa ALPA, and bid over there by seniority). Orenstein is takin' his sweet time getting the -700's and 900's onto the Mesa certificate, and there are still junior Freedom supporters on the 700/ 900 (without 200 differences training), while more senior Mesa guys are waiting for 700 and 900 training. He also still has the CC Air certificate. 'The list' is the only way to tell one from another anymore.

Good luck to ACA. If being the cheapest had anything to do with UAX flying, Mesa would have gotten the flying, not Skywest. Take that for what it's worth.

-Boo!

 

[acaTerry]

I was talking with one of Mesa's senior ERJ Captains and he said that the Freedumb certificate was all blow, that it is under Mesa. Whatever the case, Freedumb can not be used as a weapon against Mesa pilots and that's what the TA boiled down to. That and eight days off, pay issues...blah blah blah.

 

[70Cuda]

"Principle or Self Preservation?"

This is definitely the dilemma.

Once again, from reading peoples posts and hearing talk in the crew rooms I'm convinced nobody has a crystal ball. This is a poker game and we don't know if management is bluffing or not. Maybe they are, maybe they aren't. The fact is......we don't know. I find it really interesting, and sad, how aggressive some folks are about their beliefs based SOLELY on guesswork. I often listened to these types swear up and down about how ACA would NEVER furlough pilots. This opinion based solely on the fact that we didn't furlough after 9/11. Come on, folks. What kind of anti-logic is that. I remember some of these staunch "vote NO" types also praising the virtues of TM and KS. Now these guys are cursing them from take-off to touch-down.

As for SKYW already having the signed contract before the pilots voted.....well, maybe they did, maybe they didn't. Maybe UAL was waiting to see if they would sign, and if they didn't then maybe they would not have gotten the contract. The FACT is that only management knew, and probably only UAL types.

As for MESA, well, those boys were in a tight spot and the first ones in the barrel. Who really knows what one of the other higher paid regionals would have done in that situation. Unfortunately for them I believe their ALPA management let them and the rest of the ALPA groups down. Or maybe it was the other way around?

Folks, ACA may hit harder times if we vote the TA down. Then again, maybe it won't. If all you "absolute" types really had the ability to read managements poker face I'm sure you would have applied that instinct to the stock market and certainly wouldn't be working for a regional.

As for ACAterry, ease up buddy. To be emotional is to be human. That is what gives color to Life.

g159av8tor, of course we have a choice!! Our choice is to GUESS!! To guess which hand is holding the money......Yes, or No. Your rhetoric is exactly what I'm talking about. Spouting off with absolutely no fact. All you come to the table with is "what he said, or what she said." You may very well be right about ACA already having a contract with UAL. Then again, you may be DEAD WRONG. I ask you would you bet your LIFE on it? That's what I thought!! Talk is cheap. You want credibility, then lead us to FACTS!!

 

[g159av8tor]

70Cuda and Cappy,

I've watched the road show video. I've talked to everyone I can and have ease dropped on many TA conversations to get many different points of view. The best thing and the worst thing about America is that people can spout out drivel all day long. Suffer through my opinions and tirades or just don't read them.

I feel and think passionately about this TA its fallout. I want nothing more than to put it all behind us. But, I'm compelled to display my fervent opinions, how I've drawn my well-thought-out conclusions and rally support for my cause. And yes, the facts for both arguments are few and far between. My intuition tells me this TA isn't right. No, I can't prove my SKW theory about the ink drying on the deal as the TA vote is announced, but the facts will come out eventually. If I'm wrong, I can admit it.

Furthermore, if you've read my previous posts you'll discover that though I've ardently expressed my opinions and am guilty of persuasion, I feel most zealously about people giving up their voice, their right to vote.

Know this: however you vote, as long as you agree with me, make sure you vote. Apathy is the pin in my pee-hole.

Cappy, first you've been in the industry and around ACA a long time, tell me why and how'll you vote.

Also Cappy,

Not only are you a weenie, you must be Oscar frigg'n Myer!!!

"Ohhhh, I wish I was an Oscar Myer wiener"
"That is what I really want to be"
"For If I was an Oscar Myer wiener,"
"Everyone would be in love with me."


Tailwinds,

Aaron Robbins, CA J-41

PS just a joke, the wiener part!

 

[tarp]

TM (Tom Moore) comes in to the Dulles crew room to scare all of us. Yes, I was there.

What a despicable, low-down tactic!

-- Poor TM only gets 100,000 options every October. Boo hoo, he's so poor, the airline is on its death bed, he can't make a profit. (Have you looked at ACA stock 10.37/shr last time I looked up from $6.00 in Oct which TM would buy at a discount making about a 100% profit or roughly $500,000 if he sold last October's options today!) How gullible are you guys!

--We're so bad and TM is so poor. Did you know that 53% of his costs are salary? That's what TM said. NO KIDDING! Airlines are a SERVICE industry - of course salaries are going to be a large percentage of his costs. What he didn't say was how much REVENUE he's making! (Have you looked at our 10Q's, this company is drowning in cash and marketable wealth.)

--If we don't sign this TA what incentive does poor TM have to keep the airline running - we pilots don't seem to agree to anything. No kidding again Tom and we're starting to question our union leadership. We don't want to join the race to the bottom. We don't want to work our a$$es off night and day doing Uncle Tom's Charter work with no vacations. We don't want to take 7.5% pay cuts which will turn into 20% cuts when the work rules change and ACA's version of preferential bidding comes into play. We don't want to give the Tom And Jerry (whups Kerry) Show the rights to create an "alter-ego" airline with non-ACA pilots. Did you guys actually READ the TA? I'd gladly say "yes" to a reasonable request from management but what the he11 is our Union doing with this negotiation? It is a pure and utter insult to our professional status.

--The money doesn't go to poor Tom and ACA, it's just a pass-through to United. Geez these were practically the first words out of his mouth almost like he told the Union what to say in the roadshows! Well that's fine - last time I checked, I worked for ACA, my paycheck says ACA, my ID says ACA. So if we say NO, we're denying a bankrupt airline the ability to get back on its feet. (I.e. my paycheck has a direct connection to United). Yeah, I got this beautiful bridge in Brooklyn for sale, any bids?? So ACA stock is not going to go up? ACA isn't going to make a bigger profit than it did last year? ACA isn't going to grow one iota from voting "yes" and all we're doing is keeping United from insolvency through our gererous donations? Sorry, that's just krap of the highest order. Bottom line our P&L (profit and loss) will look a whole lot stronger, our stock price will go up, Tom and Kerry will get bonuses for making us MORE profitable and we will be left with less money to buy groceries.

NO, no, no No, no NO, NO.

I won't buy it and yes I'm willing to bet that they won't shut us down, that we still get United flying and eventually we will get 70 seaters in service but not right away. I don't care. It's Tom's job to work hard and make ends meet. It's my job to work hard and make airplanes fly safely through the air and to the best of my ability on schedule. It's not my place to give 20% of my salary back to Tom so that he can make "easy" money. No way! It's just too easy.

Tom: Fix the rampers, fix maintenance, fix Chicago, fix your Dispatch team, fix your scheduling team and for pity's sake stop buying expensive toys to "enhance productivity". I'd love to be a computer software salesman to ACA because they buy every cockeyed program under the sun and keep changing their accounting and productivity software. Tom - start doing the hard work of running your company and please don't come to the crew room unless you've got something nice to say!

Mad as he11 and voting NO.

 

[Redtailer]

We don't want to give the Tom And Jerry (whups Kerry) Show the rights to create an "alter-ego" airline with non-ACA pilots. Did you guys actually READ the TA?

I don't have a copy of the entire TA in front of me but is this really in there?

If it is, it should be voted down just for that very reason. Has anyone ever heard of Freedom or Republic? You guys will really screw yourselves if this is the case. ACA Mgt. is just upset because they couldn't pull the same whipsaw technique. Now they will be able to do it.

 

[tarp]

From the roadshow (blurb, not the contract)

Minority Investments:

Minority investment of more than 25% in a start-up carrier:

Company will condition the investment on the start-up carrier’s agreement to extend preferential hiring to active and furloughed ACA pilots in seniority order. Limited to 1:5 open pilot positions at the start-up carrier; and no more than 4 ACA pilots per month and 36 per year.

Minority investment of more than 25% in an existing carrier:

Company will use reasonable efforts to obtain the existing carrier’s agreement to extend preferential hiring to active and furloughed ACA pilots in seniority order. Limited to 1:5 open pilot positions at the existing carrier; and no more than 4 ACA pilots per month and 36 per year.

This provision will expire ED + 24 months

Ergo, ACA can build an alter-ego of itself (like using ACJet certificate), create a "start-up", agree to hire 1-to-5 ratio but basically can create 5 non-ACA positions for every 1 ACA/union position.

You guys open the door (by voting yes) and I guarantee one other thing, Tom and Kerry will drive a Mack truck through this little loophole! We are creating a loophole in one of the only ironclad things we have going for us - all investments by ACAI must hire ACA-Alpa Union pilots - i.e. scope for us. We allow this language to go in and we are shooting ourselves in the foot!

Just tell me how many times "scheduling" has interpreted the contract language in favor of the company - OK, you tell me how this doesn't open a loophole in our contract. I'm not going to work for "ACA Light" with 80% less ACA pilots. I'm working for original ACA with all the calories and all the costs of a regular airline.

Sorry, I have to start making jokes or I'm just going to explode.

 

[70Cuda]

Good point,

The ACJet issue could be real nasty for ACA pilots. That and the 5 year issue make this TA almost too hard to swallow.

 

[KingAirKiddo]

The minority investment part of the TA is in addition to current scope language; it is not a replacement. It does nothing but cover a loophole in our current scope language...current language says that all flying in REVENUE service by ACA or ACAI must be done by pilots on the company seniority list (paraphrased...I don't have the contract in front of me). However, current scope language does nothing to address INCOME derived from investing a minority stake in another carrier. The TA basically states that if we hold a minority interest in a new startup, then 1 out of every 5 ACA pilots must be given preferential hiring. If ACAI holds a majority stake in a new startup, then all flying must be done by ACA pilots on the seniority list.

The fundamental difference is the economic/legal definition of REVENUE versus INCOME...sorry, I'm not an MBA so I can't really expand on that point.

later,
KAK

 

[General Lee]

Dave Benjamin,

As of right now, pre-Dalpa negotiations anyways, there is no way for you to get around the 57 allotted 70 seater agreement. Only ASA and Comair are getting portions of the 57 70 seaters. I have heard that Delta would like to have more 70 seaters, and they may throw us a bone by offering new 100 seaters to us for our furloughs. But, it would take awhile to get the new 100 seaters, so we may ask for some of the 70 seaters (over the 57 amount going to ASA/Comair) for our own, under a separate cerificate. There are a lot of options out there. For right now though, Skywest will not have any 70 seaters flying for Delta, but that may change in the future.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[mckpickle]

Check this website out. Click on the left above the picture of the pilots.

http://www.martinlevitt.com/

 

[Dave Benjamin]

For right now though, Skywest will not have any 70 seaters flying for Delta, but that may change in the future.

Gen Lee,
I haven't heard anything about 70 seaters for DAL just for UAL. In fact we're slated to have 30 70 seaters online by summer 2005. The bigger question is whether or not your union could prevent us from flying a 86 seater for UAL.

 

[General Lee]

Dave,

I wasn't aware of that. I guess I do not really know all of the rules of the contract. I was only aware of the 57 limit on the number of 70 seaters for the DCI flying. Seriously, what does it say about the number of planes and what types you can fly for a competitor? I could go try to find my copy of the contract, but I might have been using it as toilet paper since 9-11.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Patriot328]

The minority investment part of the TA is in addition to current scope language; it is not a replacement. It does nothing but cover a loophole in our current scope language...current language says that all flying in REVENUE service by ACA or ACAI must be done by pilots on the company seniority list (paraphrased...I don't have the contract in front of me). However, current scope language does nothing to address INCOME derived from investing a minority stake in another carrier. The TA basically states that if we hold a minority interest in a new startup, then 1 out of every 5 ACA pilots must be given preferential hiring. If ACAI holds a majority stake in a new startup, then all flying must be done by ACA pilots on the seniority list.

The fundamental difference is the economic/legal definition of REVENUE versus INCOME...sorry, I'm not an MBA so I can't really expand on that point.

later,
KAK

KAK,

EXACTLY. The language in our TA STRENGTHENS our scope, it does NOT loosen it. A lot of people are mis-informed when it comes to that portion of the TA.

 

[Cappy]

ACA allready sent in their proposal to ual before they asked for concessions from the pilots.

So how is taking concessions going to make aca more competitive. Are they going to re submit their bid.

Again 5 years jesus. We'll be back on the downturn by the time the 5 years are over.

70cuda- How could you look yourself in the mirror for flying a 70 seat rj for 50 seat wages.

Clearly, you did not attend one of the roadshows or watch the streaming video presentation. If you did you would have seen the answer right there. Come back and post after you have the information unless you do not work at ACA. If that is the case, your opinions about an in-house issue are of no use to me or anyone else.

As far as the last sentence, you must have ACA confused with Skywest. SKY will fly the 70 at 50 rates...we have 70 rates established. Again, please get the facts before posting.