ACA new hires

[zkmayo]

UALX727,

ACA will interview you as a furloughed pilot and there is a strong desire to give furloughed pilots preferencial selection. ACA has interviewed and hired many fuloughed pilots from ALG, Midway, Commutair, Eagle, and others. Two things to consider however: ACA will ask you to resign your seniority and secondly that I know of I have not heard of one single UAL pilot interviewing at ACA since furloughs were annouced at UAL. Of course, everyone would welcome them, but I think everyone both there and here views it as reversing their career and it may be better just to ride out the furlough. If youre looking for a public endorsement from our MEC as a notion of good faith, I understand that but I think the reality of the above reasons are why it hasnt happened.

I am sorry that you feel that your job is being outsourced and politely disagree with you. The RJs ACA has on order have been the same since before 9/11 and since UAL CBA 2000. True, ACA has been given numerous former UAL routes and stations but the intention of this from the ACA pilot perspective is two fold: 1. We are doing this as a temporary stop gap until UAL gets back on its fleet and puts mainline ac back on these routes. Hopefully when this day comes ACA will have to reallocate these ac to new routes to be developed for UAL. 2. ACA pilots fly ac where our company tells us to fly the ac. Dont blame the pilots for taking your job. Virtually every pilot at ACA I think would agree with me here when I say that our job is to help grow UAL, not be UAL. Also, when UAL is in good shape, ACA is on solid ground. While ACA is in good shape now, I know having UAL healthy is crucial to ACA's continued success.

Fly safe.

 

[skyrider]

Well said Mr. Mayo!

 

[atpcliff]

Hi!

Capt-ZMan

Just so you know, I know of a ton of guys with 200 fixed-wing hours who are highly experienced, thouroughly competant aviators who have been flying highly complex multi-engine aircraft.

They are military helo pilots, with not a lot of fixed wing time. A large number of them are awesome pilots.

I know of a guy with about 12 ME airplane who got offers with TSA and Eagle. He couldn't have gotten offers from NWA/Delta, etc. because of his low ME fixed-wing time, although he would be great going right into any equipment that they had.

I must note that this guy also had about 900 hours turbine as a Naval flight instructor, but it was also SE. He is probably the best pilot I've met so far.

You can't judge a book by the cover.

Cliff
GRB

PS-Currently, in the AF, you start out in a ME Jet for your first flight. THe fighters guys are Captains (there's no FO) in the -15s and -16s and -10s with about 300 hours total time. We've never lost an F-15 in combat.

 

[Rotorhead]

Also, if you look closely at the requirements on their website, I love the "have 600 hours total time, 100 multi for special bridge programs normally associated with aviation universities. helicopter time counts towards these figures, but you must have 200 hours fixed wing time and current in fixed wing airplanes."

What a joke! 200 hours of fixed wing time and we'll have you running around the countryside in a shiny new CRJ.
Please give me a break.

Normally I am pretty level headed but your post is one of the most ridiculous, narrow minded, idiotic, and uneducated I have ever read. The 600TT100Multi is for bridge program applicants. The 200hr FW requirement applies only to rotary wing aviators. That 200hrs in FW aircraft is frequently combined with several thousand helicopter hours.

 

[surplus1]

<<ACA was out here at ERAU the other day doing interviews, thats about all i know>>

I graduated ERAU in 1991.....presently furloughed from United. Being that ACA is currently benefitting from the outsourcing of my job, (RJ growth) are they giving preferential hiring to all furloughed UAL pilots???

1) Sorry you're furloughed. Hope you get back to work soon.

2) You won't like this, but you need to hear it. Since I don't work for ACA it will not be a repeat of zxmayo's post. That's his opinion and I respect him for saying what he did but I think differently. While it would be nice if they hired you, ACA owes you nothing.

First of all, you didn't lose your job because it was outsourced to ACA or any other UAL feeder. You lost it because of the economic downturn, the 9-11 tragedy, and the mis-management of your company by your own executives. ACA didn't "buy" UAL and you have no "right" to employment at ACA, any more than ACA pilots have a "right" to employment at UAL. You (UAL) don't do anything to give them preferential hiring. Why should they do it for you?

When UAL purchased Air Wisconsin, they (AW) only had about 300 pilots. Your company (UAL) literally destroyed Air Wisconsin and caused its pilots to be unemployed in large numbers. Your MEC did nothing to help those pilots find employment at UAL, and made promises to them which your MEC never kept. Your MEC made the hollow "excuse" that it couldn't get the Company to agree to hire any AW pilots, yet that same MEC got the Company to hire hundreds of mainline pilots from EAL and others. who had lost their jobs. AW pilots were no less competent and no less qualified, but there was "no room at the inn".

The Air Wisconsin pilots, unlike the current UAL pilots, did not lose their jobs because of economic difficulty, they lost them as a direct result of the acquisition of their airline, by your airline. Your MEC and your "joint" union (they were ALPA) did nothing serious to get them jobs at UAL (with the possible exception of 1 union official). AW isn't the only "regional" bought or ruined by UAL with similar consequence. Sometimes, you reap what you sow.

Maybe this was before your time and you don't know about it. Well you should know for history is important and, all of us should strive to help each other in time of need. It's a two-way street my friend.

BTW, I am not a former or bitter Air Wisconsin pilot. I've never worked for them or been affiliated in any way with AW or UAL. I'm just old enough to remember. I also remember that your MEC tried to offer preferential interviews to striking Comair pilots, for which we were grateful and appreciative. So times can change and it's not "all bad". We (union pilots) should all try to help each other, all of the time. You should not have a "chip" on the shoulder re alleged "outsourcing", which is not the cause of your furlough.

Again, sorry you're furloughed, hope you get back soon and wish you good luck.

Surplus1
CMR

 

[TheFlyingturkey]

ACA only requires a degree in aviation with the reduced flight time stipulation (1000tt 350me with degree)

Otherwise 1500tt 250me no degree required.

Or 600tt 100me when affiliated with a "bridge partner".

I plan on getting my degree after I finish my training and start working.

Turk.

 

[UALX727]

ZKMayo and Surplus1

Thanks for taking the time to respond to my post. I agree with a lot of what you have to both say, actually. I wasn't around when the Air Wisconsin stuff went down and don't know a whole lot about it.

As far as ACA goes, yes, they do not "owe" me a job. But I find it strange that they are not interviewing furloughed UAL pilot's. You are correct in saying it would be unwise for me to give up my seniority at UAL.

I could make this a very long post about a very complicated subject (outsourcing), but to tell you the truth I am sick of worrying about it all. Can't control it. Heck, even our own union leadership at UAL wants to give management the farm in this ERP package. I am disgusted at being "sold-out" by UAL ALPA, but that is another story.

I still have to disagree with you in regards to the outsourcing of mainline jobs. I believe it is happening. I simply just look at all of the routes UAL has lost to outsourced RJ flying in the past few years. It will continue to get worse for us (mainline) and will be a benefit to the regional pilots.

I know the RJ is here to stay, that's for sure. What I worry about is how the industry will look 10-20 years down the road. I truly believe that management will continue to outsource as much flying as they can to the regionals. They will do this solely to take advantage of the labor cost differences. As long as these wide gaps continue to exist in our industry's pay structure, management will try to expoit it. And they will try to keep it in place.

I see a day coming very soon where RJ's fleets outnumber the mainline fleets of the major carriers. It will be very hard for anyone to get hired at a major due to less positions available and an increased supply of highly qualified jet pilots. The competition will be fierce. For many the regional "stepping-stone" will become a career position.

Oh well, so much for my short post. I was a regional guy for almost 6 years so I have seen both sides of things (expansion, contraction,etc.) Good luck, fellas.

 

[capt_zman]

All,

I had a well written response ready to post before my computer melted down the other day. So in my defense, my so-called narrow minded, idiotic response was taken in the wrong context. I misunderstood the 200 hr requirement and in no way intended to undermine the capabilities of the military pilots (fixed or rotary). I had thought that the requirement related to the bridge programs (my fault for poorly reading my own post).

Even after reading Surplus1's post, I still fail to agree about the employment of low-time pilots, the overall concept of bridge programs and how it relates to today's pilot marketplace. Yes, these pilots certainly have flying skills and knowledge, that is uncontested, but becoming a professional pilot is more than just skill. It's taking well earned experience and applying that experience at different levels within the aviation community.

I once was offered a very interesting piece of advice by the CEO of Oracle, Larry Ellison. He explained to me that "There are reasons there are increasing levels within a corporation. At the entry level, a person views only a very small portion of the playing field. With time, as that person increases another level, they begin to see a larger portion of that playing field and they can apply the knowledge they have learned accordingly."

It took me a few years to really understand what this comment meant, because I was gaining experience during that time and when I elevated to the next level, I was able to apply the knowledge I had learned over the years. For example, I am a 3200 hour pilot. I only know and can apply what I have learned in those 3200 hours. I don't think I can compare to the experience and knowledge of a 10,000 hour pilot because I have not been privy to those extra 6800 hours of experience. I may be able to fly just as well, but that makes up only a percentage of the job function. Using surplus1's words, "I still make frequent mistakes and I learn something every time I fly.", is something that can't go unnoticed. If a 25,000 hour pilot is learning something everytime he flies, how can I be expected to apply that knowledge?

This concept is what drives my feeling towards competition between different experience levels. Maybe this is the crux of the major vs. regional payscale problem. Regionals have always hired as entry-level positions. Should there be such a vast difference in pay based on experience? It looks like most major airlines think so. I would estimate that 99.9% of corporate America thinks so as well.

As for bridge programs, those students are given a good foundation to proceed further in their career by specializing in aviation. This is great for entry level positions which require/accept limited practical experience. So how can a 600 hour bridge program pilot compete with the bushels of more experienced pilots for the same job? Through determination and attitude? Again, those are only a percentage of the job function. Also, why would an airline publish mins that include bridge programs if they know that there are literally thousands of more experienced pilots available? Doesn't this take away from the credibility of the airline?

Today's pilot market is extremely competitive, there's no question about that. Based on that fact, I disagree with some remarks that the "right attitude" or "eager, bright and interested" is all it takes, because where I'm sitting, I bet everyone longing for an aviation job is "eager, bright and interested." It's the experience and knowledge that makes the difference.

Just to reiterate, no dig meant on military pilots. My mistake.

 

[surplus1]

Re: ZKMayo and Surplus1

UALX727,

Nice post. Thanks for taking the time. Allow me a comment or two if you will.

I still have to disagree with you in regards to the outsourcing of mainline jobs. I believe it is happening. I simply just look at all of the routes UAL has lost to outsourced RJ flying in the past few years. It will continue to get worse for us (mainline) and will be a benefit to the regional pilots.

For the sake of discussion, I'll assume that what you said is true. Now let's look at why this happened. Suppose that instead of Scoping out the little airplanes, they had been Scoped in. What would be the difference today?

1) UAL would own and operate all the RJs that you see as "outsourcing" and there would be no UAL "feeders".

2) The same number of pilots that are furloughed today, would still be furloughed as the airline, for the same reasons, reduced it's larger airplane flying and increased its small airplane flying to accomodate market conditions. Since ALL the pilots would be UAL pilots, the only real change would be whose name appears on the furlough list. We would still have the same number of furloughed pilots total, and all the downgrades, etc. associated with the cutback.

3) Instead of being furloughed as you are today, depending on your DOH, you might have moved from FE on the 72 to FO on the RJ, and someone else, junior to you would be furloughed.

Nothing changes except the name on the furlough list. My point is this. The "outsourcing" problem is one of our own invention. We, the pilots, established the "separate" categories of airplanes and therefore, the separate categories of pilots. It did not change what the company does. All it really changed is whose seniority list your name happens to be on.

The furloughed pilot, whomever he might be, would still be unhappy about losing his job. He just would not have the same opportunity to point the finger at "the RJ" or the "DO-328" or whatever type it happened to be.

The Companies didn't invent these "different" classes of pilots on separate seniority lists. We the pilots, did it ourselves. WE decided we didn't want the little planes at the mainline (for whatever reason). So, we exempted them from Scope.

If market conditions justified an increase in the number of large aircraft (instead of the number of small aircraft), the small airplane pilots would be upgrading as the little airplanes were phased out. Hiring would probably stop.

This is an economic problem. Right now, the company needs more small aircraft. We are the ones who decided that we did not want those small aircraft or their pilots on the mainline. Therefore, some of us a paying the price of that decision.

I truly believe that management will continue to outsource as much flying as they can to the regionals. They will do this solely to take advantage of the labor cost differences. As long as these wide gaps continue to exist in our industry's pay structure, management will try to expoit it. And they will try to keep it in place.

There is a "wide gap" between the salary of a 747 Captain and that of a 737 Captain. Yet, if the Company buys more 737s than 747s, we don't say they are "exploiting" the wage gap.

If all the RJs were operated by UAL instead of AW, ACA, SKYW, etc., there would still be a "wage gap" between the RJ and the 737, and it would probably be quite similar to the one that exists today. If the Company bought more RJs instead of more 737s we would not be saying they were "exploiting the wage gap." Instead, we'd say "I wish they'd buy more 73's so I can upgrade."

Again, the problem exists because the pilots at the mainline made a concious decision to exclude the small aircraft from the mainline operation. Market conditions have caused the small aircraft to proliferate (something they failed to anticipate). Now they can't get that flying back or I should say, they have not really tried to get it back.

The barn door was opened and the livestock is gone. If you won't or can't round them up and herd them back into the barn, closing the doors is irrelevant.

The problem isn't outsourcing, it's segregation. Remove the cause and you'll fix the problem. At this point, that's easier said than done.

I wish you the very best.